Project Moon Update: Binah, 8-A, and The Verse Page

[Wokistan]

With the exception of some cosmetic stuff, my rework for Binah is done. It can be viewed here, at my sandbox. A pure tldr is that I have added in her stuff from Ruina, but a more comprehensive but not exhaustive summary would be as follows:

• Split her into 3 keys: Arbiter, Sephirah, and Librarian. The fourth "supercharged by light" key is not included because we haven't had the thread figuring out what to do with that yet, but she'll get it whenever that happens.
• Updated her abilities, notably fairy and key are concept hax now.
• Accounted for the Abnormality Pages and EGO she can get in Ruina.
• Updated her resistances.
• Did the dreaded task of marking down most of the Ruina passives which can be applied to her.
• Updated miscellaneous stats like striking strength, lifting strength, intelligence, and so on.
• Revamped her Notable Abilities and Techniques section.
• Prettied up her profile.

Just go check it out on my sandbox and let me know how it looks, I'll answer any questions you may have. In fact, let's deal with the biggest one right now: Zena's feat turned out to be 8-A. Luckily, we can refer to my scaling guide, also on the sandbox (though in need of a less informal writing style) to easily deal with who this affects. What we basically end up with, in my view, is the following:

• WhiteNight: At least 8-A.
• Apocalypse Bird, other ALEPHs, Arbiters, Claws, Color Fixers, the strongest distortions, and a few others like Olivier and Siegfried: 8-A. Nikolai's Disposal, Yujin's Boundary of Death, and Phillip's Blazing Strike also go here.
• Pianist, King of Greed, Judgement Bird, and the so called "Super 1s" such as Pre EGO Xiao, Yujin, Vespa, Proxies, and their equivalents like R Captains like Myo, Proxies, Sottocapos, etc: At least 8-B, likely/possibly (whichever people prefer) 8-A.
• WAW, regular grade 1s: 8-B, just as before. Things here and down remain normal.

If this CRT is accepted, it will result in the total overhaul of Binah, the upgrading of Myo, and the total overhaul of the verse page, the latter of which was discussed here.

 

[deonment]

Looks fine to me

 

[Tomfer]

A few small media bugs in the Notable Attacks/Techniques.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Sure.

 

[Wokistan]

A few small media bugs in the Notable Attacks/Techniques.

Yeah, I'm not done with the cosmetic stuff yet. I gotta fix that and add some stuff to her gallery, potentially put some stuff in her notes too which is already on the profile but just centralizing it there to make it more visible.

 

[ShadeyD]

I agree with everything, though isn't Shockwave derived from G Corp's Singularity, which is Gravity Manipulation?

 

[Wokistan]

Should be done with the cosmetic stuff, think the visual bugs are fixed.

though isn't Shockwave derived from G Corp's Singularity, which is Gravity Manipulation?

Probably but we don't know for sure so I didn't put it @ShadeyD

 

[Tomfer]

Should be done with the cosmetic stuff, think the visual bugs are fixed.

The ones I said before yes. A few nitpicks remaining are a few abilities not in bold yet like:

Energy Manipulation (Binah can create meltdowns which drain the Qliphoth counter to 0) in Arbiter - Standard; Statistics Amplification (Various Abnormality Pages), Accelerated Development (Punishment), Power Nullification, Statistics Reduction (Watchful Eyes, Peace, The Beast, Lamp), Time Manipulation (Long Arms), Healing (Big Eyes, Tilted Scale), Energy Projection, Explosion Manipulation, Paralysis Inducement (Twilight) in Arbiter - Optional Equipment; and Creation (Can create materials out of thin air as long as they have the necessary books within the Library to reference) in Library - Standard.

 

[Wokistan]

The ones I said before yes. A few nitpicks remaining are a few abilities not in bold yet like:

Energy Manipulation (Binah can create meltdowns which drain the Qliphoth counter to 0) in Arbiter - Standard; Statistics Amplification (Various Abnormality Pages), Accelerated Development (Punishment), Power Nullification, Statistics Reduction (Watchful Eyes, Peace, The Beast, Lamp), Time Manipulation (Long Arms), Healing (Big Eyes, Tilted Scale), Energy Projection, Explosion Manipulation, Paralysis Inducement (Twilight) in Arbiter - Optional Equipment; and Creation (Can create materials out of thin air as long as they have the necessary books within the Library to reference) in Library - Standard.

Thanks, should be fixed

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

This is fine.

 

[The_Divine_Phoenix]

This is fine, I agree to this. Finally no longer in 8-B hell.

 

[Tyranno223]

We need to bring more staff here.

Minor addendum but since Roland adopted the Black Silence moniker and was on par with Colour Fixers, wouldn't he just be considered a second Black Silence?

 

[Wokistan]

I think we technically have enough, it just hasn't passed the 2 day minimum period for a thread to stick around.

Black Silence Roland would be 8-A flat yes

 

[Tomfer]

Black Silence Roland would be 8-A flat yes

Common no wife W.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Roland takes the attack that's 8-A after 2 weeks of non-stop fighting another Color and getting beat up by a Claw. Dude's tough

 

[Tomfer]

Roland is peak.

 

[Tyranno223]

Roland takes the attack that's 8-A after 2 weeks of non-stop fighting another Color and getting beat up by a Claw. Dude's tough

Plus the Librarian Dialogue implies he slaughters every floor that doesn't participate, potentially including Gebura. He kill Argalia, can potentially kill Gebura and Binah, then kill a powered up Argalia after 7 days of fighting. He's so insane even a Claw Executioner gives him some respect.

Only thing he's missing is a personal E.G.O. like Vergilus or Kali.

 

[Tomfer]

During his boss battle, he can stand against Gebura/Binah and stand against characters that can be equipped with the powers/skills of the Purple Tear and the Hana's guys. They obviously don't compare with the original characters, but it's worth mentioning at least.

He's so insane even a Claw Executioner gives him some respect.

And he goes against Claw without any Library buffs, it's just him. Later on, he stands shoulder to shoulder with Gebura and Binah, so yeah, he's pretty much on the same level as them, I think.

 

[Wokistan]

There goes 48 hour grace. Applying changes. Not doing all the abnos tonight so if people see 'em they can do 'em if they want. Keeping the thread open until all the pages have been changed AP wise. Note that Judgement Bird and King of Greed are "at least 8-B, likely 8-A" and Punishing Bird's 8-B would be 8-A.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Unrelated, Binah and Myo are missing resistance to Existence Erasure from resisting RED.

 

[Mand21]

I made a comment on this blog post because myself and a friend have noted that, in his own words: "I do think there are some oddities about the scalings where they're taking gameplay mechanics into consideration a little too hard". To paste my comment here:

"Sounds to me like you're taking game mechanics a bit too seriously and pretending like Yi Sang is reacting to the nail being 1 cm away from him.

The distance between Yi Sang and the nail at the moment of the clash depends ENTIRELY upon when the player chooses to click the mouse and move on through the collision. It's very much dependent on the game engine. If you wait a bit longer, the nail could even be PAST Yi Sang, either hidden under his sprite or displayed on top of it. Would you then say that Yi Sang has reacted in negative time, or went back in time to deflect the nail, giving him Immeasurable speed?

No.
I'd use just the distance between the two fighters for this. It's also much more reasonable with the Sinners scaling to TETH-level Kromer at this point and getting stomped canonically. If you look at the scale and how the bullets at this point of the game in Library of Ruina are on old-looking weapons, you'll see that it only makes sense for the Sinners to not be massively hypersonic yet unless you wanna buff the kind of bullets used by LoR enemies who have a similar power level.

In which case Yi Sang would get recalced to a speed of at least 180 m/s and lower than sound. Meaning Subsonic+.

Which is way more fitting of equivalent enemies in Library of Ruina."

That is all. I still think you can totally have an Arbiter reach the levels of speed mentioned because both of us looked at the Proselyte bullet blitzing feat and felt it was perfectly coherent both in how it happens in game (ranged weapons are used at the start of the turn in LoR, making them always fired from a fixed position) and also the lore, meaning that if an Arbiter upscales from there, they should indeed easily reach Mach 500+.

But that's Arbiters, Colors and whatnot. It's not believable in-lore, nor is it coherent with our rules against game mechanic usage for the Kromer nail throw to be calced the way it is. It's just dishonest: by that point, there'd be many other calcs I could make by just waiting until the last pixel. Hell, I could wait for just the right moment in game and have a deflection with ZERO distance in between attacker and defender!

 

[Wokistan]

The limbus nail calc isn't actually used for anything at the moment, it just sorta exists in limbo and I don't think I even mentioned it on my scaling aid, but this thread's as good a place as any to hash it out.

 

[Tyranno223]

Minor thing, but recent Uptie confirms that the "Apex" Distorted Philip claimed he and the Ensemble reached is actually true.

The Uptie Narrator (who is 100% confirmed is Carmen) mentions it.

 

[Uncannily_Callous]

Boy, am I glad to see ProjectMoon stuff is finally getting off the ground in this wiki.

I am curious as to how the profiles for Zena and Baral will eventually be handled regarding abilities/resistances tied to Lobotomy Corporation game mechanics. Due to being characters who solely exist in Ruina, they're featured in a battle system that has no such thing as RED/BLACK/WHITE/PALE damage. Word of God, however, confirms the Head would assuredly deal with a scenario in which EVERY Abnormality is released into the City. This implies they have the means to handle Abnormalities in spite of their various types of damage and resistances.

Binah herself also points out Singularities, which Arbiters and Claws are known to weaponize, can be effective weapons against Abnormalities. Is this (and possible upscaling from Myo, who has the L Corp gameplay perks while being a cut below a Head agent in both combat ability and equipment) enough grounds to throw a bone to our resident endgame Arbiter and Claw pair?

 

[Mand21]

Boy, am I glad to see ProjectMoon stuff is finally getting off the ground in this wiki.

I am curious as to how the profiles for Zena and Baral will eventually be handled regarding abilities/resistances tied to Lobotomy Corporation game mechanics. Due to being characters who solely exist in Ruina, they're featured in a battle system that has no such thing as RED/BLACK/WHITE/PALE damage. Word of God, however, confirms the Head would assuredly deal with a scenario in which EVERY Abnormality is released into the City. This implies they have the means to handle Abnormalities in spite of their various types of damage and resistances.

Binah herself also points out Singularities, which Arbiters and Claws are known to weaponize, can be effective weapons against Abnormalities. Is this (and possible upscaling from Myo, who has the L Corp gameplay perks while being a cut below a Head agent in both combat ability and equipment) enough grounds to throw a bone to our resident endgame Arbiter and Claw pair?

As far as I can tell from looking at Limbus Company, normal-ass weapons can damage Abnormalities, but E.G.Os are in lore the definite most effective weapon.
So yeah, I'm pretty sure we can incorporate Abnormalities relatively smoothly into the tiering system.

 

[Tyranno223]

As far as I can tell from looking at Limbus Company, normal-ass weapons can damage Abnormalities, but E.G.Os are in lore the definite most effective weapon.
So yeah, I'm pretty sure we can incorporate Abnormalities relatively smoothly into the tiering system.

Limbus Abnormalities are all severely weakened by the Qliphoth Deterrence although it's weakening as Golden Boughs are collected. Ruina ones are weakened from being Booked with only White Night and Apocalypse Bird even manifesting outside their Books for a moment or few. The Ending C ones would be at full strength.

That being said, I think only Nothing There is outright immune to red damage anyway.

That aside, the Head is mentioned to have access to every singularity and that would include L Corp so maybe there's something there.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Limbus Abnormalities are all severely weakened by the Qliphoth Deterrence although it's weakening as Golden Boughs are collected. Ruina ones are weakened from being Booked with only White Night and Apocalypse Bird even manifesting outside their Books for a moment or few. The Ending C ones would be at full strength.

That being said, I think only Nothing There is outright immune to red damage anyway.

That aside, the Head is mentioned to have access to every singularity and that would include L Corp so maybe there's something there.

Can't really be used unless we see like someone actually use it. Plus I doubt we'll have any Head content for a LOOOONG time.

snip

I'd like to say, I think this is inaccurate, and it's also mainly because PM's style for these turn based games is just very weird but I don't think it's game mechanics, same way 4-A for the series exists and it's not game mechanics.

Also "Which is way more fitting of equivalent enemies in Library of Ruina." I hate to break it to you but even low grade fixers could probably push hypersonic or supersonic.

 

[Tyranno223]

Also "Which is way more fitting of equivalent enemies in Library of Ruina." I hate to break it to you but even low grade fixers could probably push hypersonic or supersonic.

I have the Artbook and Full-Stop Office's Fixers are Grade 4 to 6. Librarians can parry bullets with pages around the Urban Plague (and before tbh) level they're introduced so yeah, Grade 4 to 6 Fixers are probably where bullet deflection begins to occur.

I'll add that we know Arbiters can use singularities like Lock and Fairies. Though yeah, we have to wait for it to be seen. In the meantime Shin/Sin is neat. We got PM brand armament Haki.

 

[ShadeyD]

Does Zena have lock and fairy as well?

 

[Tyranno223]

Does Zena have lock and fairy as well?

She shares Shockwave with Binah but uses Line and Birdcage instead of Lock and Fairy. No idea what they do yet (though Birdcage sealing Speed Die could probably be paralysis or something).

Baral keeps a lot of the Claw stuff and we know what K Corp's Singularity is thanks to Limbus. He has W Corp and K Corp's stuff, as well as R Corp's but what that one does for him idk.

 

[CurrySenpai]

She shares Shockwave with Binah but uses Line and Birdcage instead of Lock and Fairy. No idea what they do yet (though Birdcage sealing Speed Die could probably be paralysis or something).

Baral keeps a lot of the Claw stuff and we know what K Corp's Singularity is thanks to Limbus. He has W Corp and K Corp's stuff, as well as R Corp's but what that one does for him idk.

I believe r Corp is just general bodily augmentations.

 

[Tyranno223]

I believe r Corp is just general bodily augmentations.

Like what the Rabbits, Rhino, and Reindeer get? Makes sense but it's kinda strange that theirs doesn't use their Singularity unlike the other ones... actually I guess W Serum doesn't either.

 

[ShadeyD]

I believe r Corp is just general bodily augmentations.

Perhaps converting mental strength into physical force?
That's what Reindeer ishmael does with her beating stick

 

[ShadeyD]

Like what the Rabbits, Rhino, and Reindeer get? Makes sense but it's kinda strange that theirs doesn't use their Singularity unlike the other ones... actually I guess W Serum doesn't either.

W Corp weapons are implied to cut through space no?

 

[Tyranno223]

W Corp weapons are implied to cut through space no?

Yeah but that's W Corp's non-Singularity tech. Their actual Singularity is the restoration of things to a certain point in time (like a save point). The space cutting thing was from a fallen Wing I believe.

 

[Mand21]

I'd like to say, I think this is inaccurate, and it's also mainly because PM's style for these turn based games is just very weird but I don't think it's game mechanics, same way 4-A for the series exists and it's not game mechanics.

Also "Which is way more fitting of equivalent enemies in Library of Ruina." I hate to break it to you but even low grade fixers could probably push hypersonic or supersonic.

I think you're going pretty crazy to say "low grade Fixers could push supersonic or hypersonic". Canonically, Grade 9 Fixers are literally normal humans with zero technological augmentation, and the gap between grades is small at the early grades and grows larger with the later grades. Not only that, but we only ever see any firearms whatsoever be used when we see our first Grade 5 Fixers, who, while they can be clashed against, can also hurt you and "ranged pages always act at the beginning of the turn" seems to be a reference to how these are quick weapons that attack from afar before you can close in on the attacker, which means nobody is casually hard blitzing bullets at the moment when firearms are first introduced.

I think it would be incoherent to say that Fixers before Grade 5~4 are supersonic/hypersonic.

Also, firearms are forbidden in the City because they easily cause a ton of harm to people. If some Grade 8~7 fodder or random idiot from the Nest (which can definitely use Grade 8~7 levels of augmentation) were Supersonic, then this wouldn't be the case. The Head and Hana Association would never give a flying **** if bullets can easily kill normal humans because they fundamentally don't care about the deaths of poor people. They'd care if people from the Nests can still suffer injuries or death from that. So guns — the kind we have in real life — HAVE to be effective against targets up to Grade 7 at least. This means these characters have to be slower, weaker and less durable than the speed and damage output of a handgun.

Meaning that by the series' logic, Grade 7 and below HAVE to be subsonic and at most low end wall level. Anything beyond replicating the kinetic energy of a bike crash with every punch is way too much, and even a speeding motorcycle would be stretching the limits quite a bit.

 

[First_Witch]

Also, firearms are forbidden in the City because they easily cause a ton of harm to people. If some Grade 8~7 fodder or random idiot from the Nest (which can definitely use Grade 8~7 levels of augmentation) were Supersonic, then this wouldn't be the case. The Head and Hana Association would never give a flying **** if bullets can easily kill normal humans because they fundamentally don't care about the deaths of poor people. They'd care if people from the Nests can still suffer injuries or death from that. So guns — the kind we have in real life — HAVE to be effective against targets up to Grade 7 at least. This means these characters have to be slower, weaker and less durable than the speed and damage output of a handgun.

Thats incorrect iirc. First of all, guns arent forbidden, they are heavily taxed. And the reason for that is because gun combat is too indirect for the Head, it needs to be linked to the human experience

 

[Uncannily_Callous]

She shares Shockwave with Binah but uses Line and Birdcage instead of Lock and Fairy. No idea what they do yet (though Birdcage sealing Speed Die could probably be paralysis or something).

Baral keeps a lot of the Claw stuff and we know what K Corp's Singularity is thanks to Limbus. He has W Corp and K Corp's stuff, as well as R Corp's but what that one does for him idk.

Birdcage appears to just be a variation of Line, given it uses the same attack animations and artwork. Line itself is a curious Singularity, mainly due to the forced powernull aspect the cards related to it have. Would we give her Power Nullification due to her attacks having this property?

My personal takeaway from it is that it's a neat little bit of gameplay-story integration. After losing their previous Arbiter to the Red Mist, the Head had Zena specifically prepared to deal with Gebura by using cards that counter her main gameplay mechanic (stacking dummy amounts of power effects.) It's no wonder Zena was able to easily subdue the Gebster before Binah arrived.

 

[CurrySenpai]

snip

I'm not going to argue "series intent" or what not, it's not like this is a particularly crazy verse, but you're just... kind of wrong lol. Besides, lower grade fixers don't just not have augmentations. It's that MOST of them don't have the money to afford them, or good ones. Everyone starts at Grade 9 though, this isn't a set every grade 9 fixer is weak thing.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Doens't matter anyways though, we' have no ruina profiles so womp womp