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Problems with Thorkell's page 2.0

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Unforgiven0815

Unforgiven0815

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About Thorkell and this thread.
While I do agree where the removal from the "Memory Manipulation" comes from, the Fear Manipulation has two stated feats.
The one which Blackcurrant91 mentioned, was Thorkell's name causing fear in others aka this.
Fair enough, however, the other feat is valid cuz it's no different from what Stain did, who has Fear Manipulation under his Power and Abilites Section, causing fear in others with his aura/bloodlust.
Stain.
Thorkell.
 
Thorkell has legitimate aura, I can get the memory manipulation removed but it's 100% actual fear aura and should be kept as this imo
 
It can be at most a limited form of Social Influencing, just as with all characters who can induce fear though non-supernatural means.
Fear manipulation is exclusive to characters who can induce that feeling through a magic or psychic power and else, not just through their behavior (which falls under social influencing).
Thorkell's ability is also due to him being a warrior famous for his strength, someone who doesn't know him wouldn't be scared by his name, as well as someone who is as strong as him or even more.
I would be scared too in front of him, but someone like, for example, Wolverine would not.

And if Stain's ability is illegitimate (I don't know) it should be removed, it's not a reason to justify another wrong thing.
 
SpookyShadow said:
Is breaking down someone mentally by simply standing just social influencing?
Click to expand...
Well usually Fear Manipulation targets one's darkest fears and attacks them psychologically, like a Boggart from Harry Potter or shit.
 
That's exactly what Thorkell does. Thorkell has challenged Torgrim into combat to death and destroyed his psyche because Torgrim understood who stood right before him, a man with menacing appearance and even more menacing reputation
 
Anyway, he has social influencing. It was noted many times that he keeps his 500 bloodthirsty men together only because of his presence
 
SpookyShadow said:
Is breaking down someone mentally by simply standing just social influencing?
Click to expand...
As pointed out in the previous CRT, it's something more related to the victim itself, not something that Thorkell did on purpose or due to some kind of passive supernatural aura, otherwise a lot of other characters in VS would have a resistance for not having their mind broken by Thorkell's presence.
The same thing could have happened to Torgrim if he had to face someone who has both an intimidating appearance and is known by him for his insane strength.
Thorkell is something like 2 or more meters tall and slaughtered a group of people in front of him just two seconds earlier, I think that any normal person would be scared af.
But at the same time Thorkell doesn't leave a track of mentally broken people around him.
 
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Also while we are talking about Thorkell's page, the spear feat is Subsonic+? I didn't see it in the calc

And the 9-A... needs to be calced. I would love to use 9-A Thorkell in matches, but he has no value for this AP.
 
SpookyShadow said:
Anyway, he has social influencing. It was noted many times that he keeps his 500 bloodthirsty men together only because of his presence
Click to expand...
I would label it as limited, because most of it is due to others being inferior to him and him being famous in his verse.
Someone who doesn't know who he is could be intimidated by the fact that he is a giant armed with axes but the same would happen in front of a dinosaur and something like that.
Also someome who is stronger more or like him and/or very confident wouldn't be scared by his presence alone, especially if Thorkell is a stranger to him.
 
SpookyShadow said:
Also while we are talking about Thorkell's page, the spear feat is Subsonic+? I didn't see it in the calc

And the 9-A... needs to be calced. I would love to use 9-A Thorkell in matches, but he has no value for this AP.
Click to expand...
VS doesn't have calcs in general from what I saw (not much because I just recently started reading the manga and I want to avoid spoilers)
 
Tbh, problem I see with it being Social Influencing instead, is that that's not the only time that Thorkell's aura is being represented as a demon.
During a flashback about his daughter later, Thorkell's presence/aura has been described as a "big storm" and he was shown as a demon.

And his aura/bloodlust literally made Torgrim pass out out of fear and he then forget all of his memories and his state of mind reverted to that of a child.
While yes, it can be said that it was related to the victim itself, anyone in the VS verse except Thors or Thorfinn&Garm (More-so related to their personality) would piss their pants and get mentally broken out of fear once they have to face Thorkell in a 1 vs 1.

Again, same can be said about the Stain feat, it's not like a DBZ Character would be scared of someone like Stain.
 
SamanPatou said:
VS doesn't have calcs in general from what I saw (not much because I just recently started reading the manga and I want to avoid spoilers)
Click to expand...
Only the spear feat was calced. Thorkell has a feat with cleaving two houses and it's pretty sick, I requested it but no one did it
 
I'm not at that point of the story yet, but having an aura is something that can exist even in real life, but it's depending on your behavior, appearance and knowledge that others have of you or idea they get by looking at you (and it is still subjective).
A 2 meters tall muscular man would still have an intimidating aura for someone, as well as someone with a gun.
It works on a psychological level depending on the situation, the people affected and the person that emanates such aura.
Thorkell doesn't have a magical passive power that he chooses to turn off or on, his aura is given by a combination of infamy on his name, his appearance and his behavior.
It's the perfect definition of social influencing, but most of it is given by previous knowledge of the subject
The 5000 bloodthirsty man are calm because they know Thorkell would turn them into mush in a second, he even crushed the skull of someome who was mocking Thorfinn.
But the same men would have been calm in presence of a comparably intimidating person or worse.
 
About Stain, if that's the case he should have his power changed to social influencing as well.
They aren't even the first who get their power changed, the first examples that come into my mind are Shrek from the original novel and Sullivan from Monster Inc., both scare others with their behavior and appearance, but it's not a supernatural ability.
 
Sooooo....should I give him Social Influencing with the feat where he breaks Torgrim's mind, linked to it?
Idk what to do with Stain. I feel like the only thing that COULD justify it being Fear Manipulation, is him scaring Endeavor even though Endeavor would whoop his ass, especially at the state Stain was in when he scared him and the others. That feat would I guess prove that he can cause fear in opponents who are stronger than him.
 
Personally I would define it as limited Social Influencing due to him being known as an exceptionally strong and violent warrior, with his name causing fear in those who know about him. He can also exploit this by acting in an intimating manner to keep his underling at pace and scare his enemies. (this isn't the exact sentence I'd put in the profile, but the concept is that)
I outline the "limited" because it would be almost entirely useless outside of the verse as well as parts of the VS world where he isn't known. And there's also the fact that many characters wouldn't be scared just by his appearance or him acting like a bully.
 
I cannot believe we are having this thread truly. Can someone please explain to me how in verse infamy is social influencing? in fact it literally isn't and you cant lol. We decided so many times that in verse infamy is NOT social influencing. If you want to give him social influencing for the 'keeping his Vikings in toe thing' even that is barely social influencing. I guess every body builder IRL has social influencing and every human has fear manipulation from being able to torture someone. I guess guns/bombs have social influencing too for breaking people mentally in war.

This thread is ridiculous.
 
That's why I proposed limited social influencing.
Verse-whise it's valid, and Thorkell knows how to exploit this thing, but it's still limited to those who know who Thorkell is
Being prone to scare someone using your appearance and act accordingly is legit, it may not be effective, but it still is a thing.
And Torgrim's mind didn't break due to Thorkell being a lovecraftian eldritch horror, it was his own weakness, so the feat should not be worded in that manner.
Basically, scaring Torgrim is fine, labeling it like if breaking his mind was Thorkel's merit isn't, especially because, as far as I know, it didn't happen with no one else, and Torgrim probably would have ended in the same way with opponents similar to Thorkell.
But the ability itself should definitely be limited.

Also we rushed to the conclusions too early, unforgiven applied them too early (and maybe I should have said that before).

And both of you please discuss things on the forum becasue addind or deleting stuff.
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
I cannot believe we are having this thread truly. Can someone please explain to me how in verse infamy is social influencing? in fact it literally isn't and you cant lol. We decided so many times that in verse infamy is NOT social influencing. If you want to give him social influencing for the 'keeping his Vikings in toe thing' even that is barely social influencing. I guess every body builder IRL has social influencing and every human has fear manipulation from being able to torture someone. I guess guns/bombs have social influencing too for breaking people mentally in war.

This thread is ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Then go on and remove it from every character who can cause fears in others with their aura alone. It had nothing to do with infamy, Thorkell has been represented as a demon several times throughout the manga, his aura broke Torgrim's mind, was is there so understand? Yet you say that Stain's feat, which is exactly the same (Not as impressive as Thorkell's feat even, since Stain just scared his enemies, while Thorkell broke a man's mind) is fear manipulation?
 
Provide scans for this because the ones you have provided where he is perceived as a Daemon do not work. I have not seen any scans yet where he has a supernatural aura which is the requirement for fear manipulation.
 
That's fine then, the way it's explained on the profile doesn't/didn't make sense in the slightest.

Put something like 'When he is serious, others literally perceive him as a Daemon which causes their minds to snap.'

Is there any other times peoples minds broke from this treatment?
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
That's fine then, the way it's explained on the profile doesn't/didn't make sense in the slightest.

Put something like 'When he is serious, others literally perceive him as a Daemon which causes their minds to snap.'
Click to expand...
It said "intimidated a viking so much that he mentally broke" which fits.
Putting it as "When he is serious, others literally perceive him as a Daemon which causes their minds to snap." makes no sense because Thorkell wasn't serious at all.
The mind of his enemy broke cuz he had to face Thorkell in a 1 vs 1. Thorkell approaching him was enough for the man to lose his mind, lose his memories, and revert back to the mind of a child.
 
Is the memory manip shit the only time this has happened? if so I would heavily disagree with it. Fear manipulation is fine tho.
 
I still think that Torgrim's mind broke due to his own weakness, not because of Thorkell.
He scared the shit out of him, yes, but it's not like Thorkell can just decide to wipe the minds of his opponents.
 
SamanPatou said:
I still think that Torgrim's mind broke due to his own weakness, not because of Thorkell.
He scared the shit out of him, yes, but it's not like Thorkell can just decide to wipe the minds of his opponents.
Click to expand...
Yeah I agree, I hope no1 intends to add it back to his profile.
 
I mean, any random viking would do except as I mentioned, Thors and Thorfinn&Garm (Thorfinn cuz he was out for revenge, Garm cuz he's crazy).

Blackcurrant91 said:
Yeah I agree, I hope no1 intends to add it back to his profile.
Click to expand...
What now, fear aura or not?
The same should apply to Stain then, it's not like All for One would be scared by him.
 
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