Problems with speed scaling in Xenoblade

[Wildblack1]

Many characters speed is based on This(https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...Xenoblade_Chronicles_X:_Ganglion_Skells_Speed) argument which I disagree with. You should read it first to understand what I am going to say.
My problems with the argument.
1. An initial assumption that is made is that they have to cross the entire federation to make it to earth which just does not make any sense. Earth is much more likely to be somewhere in the middle and it doesn't really make any sense to assume it started on the edge either.
2. It doesn't really make sense to assume that the skells are what can move that fast. When seen fighting near earth there is a giant spherical ship that is there as well. Doesn't it make more sense to assume that that is what can move very fast not the skells themselves.
3. Just because it is possible to get from one place to another very quickly does not mean the can move that fast. In Xenosaga they have the ablity to do gate jumps(similar to hyperspace from starwars). Xenosaga is inspired quite a bit from xenosaga, so I makes a lot of sense that they could have similar technology, allowing them to get places quickly without actually traveling that fast.
4. When you actually see ganglion skells in game, the don't move very fast at all. Even if they could move that fast they clearly don't when they are fighting, so character who can fight them would not scale to their speed.

This effect practicly every character in the verse, through roughly this path. Ganglion Skell to Cross or Elma to Telethia to Zanza or Pneuma to Shulk or Aion or Jin to everyone else

 

[CloverDragon03]

1. An initial assumption that is made is that they have to cross the entire federation to make it to earth which just does not make any sense. Earth is much more likely to be somewhere in the middle and it doesn't really make any sense to assume it started on the edge either.

Prove that Earth is somewhere in the middle. In context, the feat is crossing the entire Samaar Federation System

2. It doesn't really make sense to assume that the skells are what can move that fast. When seen fighting near earth there is a giant spherical ship that is there as well. Doesn't it make more sense to assume that that is what can move very fast not the skells themselves.

This is literally just ignoring the feat and saying "well I don't think it makes sense." If they have the feat, then personal belief doesn't matter

3. Just because it is possible to get from one place to another very quickly does not mean the can move that fast. In Xenosaga they have the ablity to do gate jumps(similar to hyperspace from starwars). Xenosaga is inspired quite a bit from xenosaga, so I makes a lot of sense that they could have similar technology, allowing them to get places quickly without actually traveling that fast.

"Just because it is possible to get from one place to another very quickly does not mean the can move that fast"

What?

That's literally how speed works. And unlike other things, this isn't noted to be a special ability of sorts. You need to prove it's from a special ability and not from sheer speed

4. When you actually see ganglion skells in game, the don't move very fast at all. Even if they could move that fast they clearly don't when they are fighting, so character who can fight them would not scale to their speed.

Game mechanics

Heavily disagree with this CRT

 

[Wildblack1]

Prove that Earth is somewhere in the middle. In context, the feat is crossing the entire Samaar Federation System

I not trying to prove that it is. I am just saying that it doesn't make sense to assume that they are as far away as they can possibly be in they Federation

This is literally just ignoring the feat and saying "well I don't think it makes sense." If they have the feat, then personal belief doesn't matter

This point is saying that If they were able to get to earth that fast, why assume that the skells can do it by themselves when there Is a giant ship that seems like it could tottaly be the source of the FTL travel.

"Just because it is possible to get from one place to another very quickly does not mean the can move that fast"

What?

That's literally how speed works. And unlike other things, this isn't noted to be a special ability of sorts. You need to prove it's from a special ability and not from sheer speed

What I'm saying here is that I beleive the speed is not combat applicable. I can't 100% prove that it isn't just speed but I think a game that heavily inspires this one having a clearly established mechanism for it if decent evidence. I would at least say that given that they are not shown to move nearly that fast, They probably can't use that much speed in combat for some reason(maybe they can't control it very well or something), so things that can fight them are not neccicaraly able to move that fast.

Game mechanics

We also see them in cutscenes and they don't move that fast either. youtu.be/YfpVlxOJ-s0 youtu.be/pIPkSA7fZ7w youtu.be/VG4OHMzCMZc I think if the intention was for them to be able to move that fast, they would have shown them moving very fast, not just implied that they can travel over a far distance.

And to add 1 more point that I didn't put before,
The white whale is explicitly said to move at the speed of light and It still took them a long time to catch up to it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I not trying to prove that it is. I am just saying that it doesn't make sense to assume that they are as far away as they can possibly be in they Federation

Then your claim here holds no weight. You asserted it makes no sense to say it's at the edge, and your only rationale was "well it could be around the middle." If you don't have proper substantiation, your claim doesn't hold weight.

This point is saying that If they were able to get to earth that fast, why assume that the skells can do it by themselves when there Is a giant ship that seems like it could tottaly be the source of the FTL travel.

I don't see how this is relevant at all. The Skells are still traveling at this speed

What I'm saying here is that I beleive the speed is not combat applicable. I can't 100% prove that it isn't just speed but I think a game that heavily inspires this one having a clearly established mechanism for it if decent evidence. I would at least say that given that they are not shown to move nearly that fast, They probably can't use that much speed in combat for some reason(maybe they can't control it very well or something), so things that can fight them are not neccicaraly able to move that fast.

Except there's no proof of it being non-combat applicable beyond pure headcanon. Being inspired by something quite literally means nothing. And again, game mechanics. Imagine trying to show something moving at such speeds in-game, that sounds like a nightmare.

We also see them in cutscenes and they don't move that fast either. youtu.be/YfpVlxOJ-s0 youtu.be/pIPkSA7fZ7w youtu.be/VG4OHMzCMZc I think if the intention was for them to be able to move that fast, they would have shown them moving very fast, not just implied that they can travel over a far distance.

So... again, game mechanics. See my previous point on that. It's like trying to say Sonic the Hedgehog isn't lightspeed or higher just because a cutscene doesn't show him at that speed.

And to add 1 more point that I didn't put before,
The white whale is explicitly said to move at the speed of light and It still took them a long time to catch up to it.

I'd like more context to this, because we can very easily invoke death of the author

 

[Wildblack1]

Then your claim here holds no weight. You asserted it makes no sense to say it's at the edge, and your only rationale was "well it could be around the middle." If you don't have proper substantiation, your claim doesn't hold weight.

I am not arguing that it is in any specific place, my point is that there is just as much evidence for in being in any place, so it doesn't make sense use the largest possible number for the calculation.

I don't see how this is relevant at all. The Skells are still traveling at this speed

If someone moves at 50 mph in a car that person can not run at 50 mph. I am saying it is a possibility that only the big sphere can move that fast and the skells were just riding in it.

Except there's no proof of it being non-combat applicable beyond pure headcanon. Being inspired by something quite literally means nothing. And again, game mechanics. Imagine trying to show something moving at such speeds in-game, that sounds like a nightmare.

Correct me if I am wrong but my assumption is that we are trying to find what is most likely to be true about the game. If I am trying to figure out what is most likely to be true, I think what inspired the game is totally valid evidence for that. As for showing that you don't have to litterally show it but lets look at xc2 for an example. In that game to show Jin moving very fast, he appears to teleport sometime when he attacks and they directly state that he can move at the speed of light in the game. Nothing at all like that is done here.

So... again, game mechanics. See my previous point on that. It's like trying to say Sonic the Hedgehog isn't lightspeed or higher just because a cutscene doesn't show him at that speed.

I'd like more context to this, because we can very easily invoke death of the author

But they do show them move at nowhere near that speed and there are also cases of the being expressly limited by how fast they can move. Like i said previously the white whale can move at the speed of light (evidence for that here youtu.be/iPWzgML2xlk?list=PLpVpBRIlzWuAPrRuKI4LZKMQiO4dIOWo8&t=65) and the ganglion did not catch up to it for 2 years, so they are likely of only similar speed to that.

To be a little more clear. I am not trying to say that exactly what I am saying is true, but I am trying to point out that the orignal post is flawed and based on assumptions that are not neccicaraly true.

Additionaly I have 1 question. It's unrelated but I would be thankful if you answered it. I have been wanting to create pages for the wiki, for Xenosaga and gears, but I'm not sure what the proccess for doing that Is. Some instruction would be extremely helpful.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with CloverDragon, if we don't see them use portals, it cannot be an assumption that is what they use. Samaar Federation literally consists of multiple galaxies and Earth is located in the Milky Way Galaxy and there are galaxies much further away than the Andromeda Galaxy, so it's millions of lightyears regardless.

 

[Theglassman12]

Not knowledgeable on X, but saying "It doesn't make sense that they can move that fast" and not elaborating on why with any anti-feats is not an argument. That's an argument from incredulity fallacy you're pulling.

 

[Wildblack1]

I agree with CloverDragon, if we don't see them use portals, it cannot be an assumption that is what they use. Samaar Federation literally consists of multiple galaxies and Earth is located in the Milky Way Galaxy and there are galaxies much further away than the Andromeda Galaxy, so it's millions of lightyears regardless.

I agree that you can't assume that they use portals, but I also don't think you can assume that they traveled over the entire federation or that the skells are the things that can move super fast when the giant sphere could have just as much, while ignoring that it took them 2 years to catch up to a lightspeed ship. I said that to provide a possible explenation if you beleived my other arguments.

and

Not knowledgeable on X, but saying "It doesn't make sense that they can move that fast" and not elaborating on why with any anti-feats is not an argument. That's an argument from incredulity fallacy you're pulling.

In my 2nd reply I said that it took them 2 years to catch up to a lightspeed ship.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I am not arguing that it is in any specific place, my point is that there is just as much evidence for in being in any place, so it doesn't make sense use the largest possible number for the calculation.

It does, for reasons I've already mentioned and for reasons I will mention further below

If someone moves at 50 mph in a car that person can not run at 50 mph. I am saying it is a possibility that only the big sphere can move that fast and the skells were just riding in it.

That's just it though: a possibility. And an unfounded one at that. It's specifically the Skells that are moving

Correct me if I am wrong but my assumption is that we are trying to find what is most likely to be true about the game. If I am trying to figure out what is most likely to be true, I think what inspired the game is totally valid evidence for that. As for showing that you don't have to litterally show it but lets look at xc2 for an example. In that game to show Jin moving very fast, he appears to teleport sometime when he attacks and they directly state that he can move at the speed of light in the game. Nothing at all like that is done here.

Jin is shown moving very fast in those scenes to indicate how he is easily blitzing the rest of the party, because his speed is a big deal. His speed's a big highlight, whereas the Skells aren't famed for their speed or anything like that. To add onto this, Mythra's light is directly stated to be light speed, yet it's not shown to be moving in a way similar to how Jin moves.

The way they portray speed is largely arbitrary, it seems.

But they do show them move at nowhere near that speed and there are also cases of the being expressly limited by how fast they can move. Like i said previously the white whale can move at the speed of light (evidence for that here youtu.be/iPWzgML2xlk?list=PLpVpBRIlzWuAPrRuKI4LZKMQiO4dIOWo8&t=65) and the ganglion did not catch up to it for 2 years, so they are likely of only similar speed to that.

To be a little more clear. I am not trying to say that exactly what I am saying is true, but I am trying to point out that the orignal post is flawed and based on assumptions that are not neccicaraly true.

I don't think what you sent necessarily proves anything, though. Now I haven't played X, but from what I can gather from the scene, we just see talk about "gaining access to light-speed travel" and something about the White Whale having yet to be found. Who's to say it's specifically because of speed that it has yet to be found. It can be due to other factors, such as being in hiding somewhere that hasn't been found.

Additionaly I have 1 question. It's unrelated but I would be thankful if you answered it. I have been wanting to create pages for the wiki, for Xenosaga and gears, but I'm not sure what the proccess for doing that Is. Some instruction would be extremely helpful.

I'd rather not derail the CRT, so I'll send you a message on some general instructions on how to make a profile, as well as some guidelines to follow

 

[Wildblack1]

It does, for reasons I've already mentioned and for reasons I will mention further below

That's just it though: a possibility. And an unfounded one at that. It's specifically the Skells that are moving

Jin is shown moving very fast in those scenes to indicate how he is easily blitzing the rest of the party, because his speed is a big deal. His speed's a big highlight, whereas the Skells aren't famed for their speed or anything like that. To add onto this, Mythra's light is directly stated to be light speed, yet it's not shown to be moving in a way similar to how Jin moves.

The way they portray speed is largely arbitrary, it seems.

I don't think what you sent necessarily proves anything, though. Now I haven't played X, but from what I can gather from the scene, we just see talk about "gaining access to light-speed travel" and something about the White Whale having yet to be found. Who's to say it's specifically because of speed that it has yet to be found. It can be due to other factors, such as being in hiding somewhere that hasn't been found.

I actually missed a important detail. To quote from the Xenoblade wiki "Only the Ganglion are known to have survived the battle, as they were enveloped in a strange light and mysteriously transported to the planet Mira." (https://xenoblade.fandom.com/wiki/Samaar_Federation) That is very clearly some kind of teleportation. (I think there are characters that say something like this but I tried to find where and I couldn't after a little bit of looking. It's probably part of a side quest or something.) Even if the ganglion in the intro were not teleported to Mira, It is clear that they are actively trying to pusue humans ("Samaar did not seem to have any concern for Earth's inhabitants, despite humans being the descendants of the Samaarian race. The Ganglion in particular intended to wipe out humanity for exactly that reason.") so if they could move as fast as you were claiming it would not have taken them 2 years.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I actually missed a important detail. To quote from the Xenoblade wiki "Only the Ganglion are known to have survived the battle, as they were enveloped in a strange light and mysteriously transported to the planet Mira." (https://xenoblade.fandom.com/wiki/Samaar_Federation) That is very clearly some kind of teleportation. (I think there are characters that say something like this but I tried to find where and I couldn't after a little bit of looking. It's probably part of a side quest or something.)

Okay but I don't think you can say that's the same as what's going on here, especially since they're "crossing" the Samaar Federation, indicating some kind of movement rather than teleportation.

It is clear that they are actively trying to pusue humans ("Samaar did not seem to have any concern for Earth's inhabitants, despite humans being the descendants of the Samaarian race. The Ganglion in particular intended to wipe out humanity for exactly that reason.") so if they could move as fast as you were claiming it would not have taken them 2 years.

I understand that they were actively hunting them down, but they could've simply just... been unable to find them for 2 years.

 

[Wildblack1]

Okay but I don't think you can say that's the same as what's going on here, especially since they're "crossing" the Samaar Federation, indicating some kind of movement rather than teleportation.

Where does it say in game that they are "crossing" the federation? They barely refer to it outside of the intro and the don't mention them crossing anything there.

I understand that they were actively hunting them down, but they could've simply just... been unable to find them for 2 years.

I think that is unlikely. The post claims that the ganglion travel 214434.43 times faster than the white whale. At that speed they could move how far the white whale could move in 2 years in less than 5 minutes. I very much doubt they will have any problems finding them at that speed.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Where does it say in game that they are "crossing" the federation? They barely refer to it outside of the intro and the don't mention them crossing anything there.

That's... kinda the whole context of the feat. Just because they were enveloped in that light once, doesn't mean that's specifically what happened in this feat

I think that is unlikely. The post claims that the ganglion travel 214434.43 times faster than the white whale. At that speed they could move how far the white whale could move in 2 years in less than 5 minutes. I very much doubt they will have any problems finding them at that speed.

Okay but regardless of what you personally believe, it is very much a possibility that addresses this concern

 

[Wildblack1]

That's... kinda the whole context of the feat. Just because they were enveloped in that light once, doesn't mean that's specifically what happened in this feat

Yes but it established a possible mechanism for them to have teleported.

Okay but regardless of what you personally believe, it is very much a possibility that addresses this concern

It's not a personal belief. I am working on some math t say how long it would take them to search a 2 light year radius sphere and I will get back to you on that when I am done.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Another heads up, it's common for stuff in fiction to have lightspeed statements but actually be much faster than light via scaling and/or their own feats. I highly doubt "Intergalactic ships" are any slower than Massively FTL+.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Someone ping me when the thread has concluded

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yes but it established a possible mechanism for them to have teleported.

A very unfounded possibility. Just because it happened there, doesn’t mean the exact same thing happened here

It’s not a personal belief. I am working on some math t say how long it would take them to search a 2 light year radius sphere and I will get back to you on that when I am done.

Why 2 light years?

 

[Wildblack1]

A very unfounded possibility. Just because it happened there, doesn’t mean the exact same thing happened here

I don't think the same think definitely happened here, but it does establish that teleportation is a thing that can happen. I am only providing one possibility

Why 2 light years?

The white whale can travel at lightspeed and it took them 2 years to reach it. I doesn't matter though b/c I couldn't figure out how to do the math.

I feel like it is very hard to explain this to someone who hasn't played the game, but I'll try. You see ganglion skells all the time in the game and they are pretty common enemies and bosses. Nothing you ever see them do remotely suggests they can move even close to that fast. I don't think one instance of they getting somewhere quickly, when teleportation is a thing that is clearly established to be able to happen in the universe is enough evidence to give them that speed.

Even if you believe that they can move that fast I would like to provide some evidence for why it should not scale to some other characters

Cross/Elma. When they do fight Ganglion skells in the game, in cutscenes and gameplay, they are not only not show to move that fast they are barely shown to move very quickly at all. I addition mimiosomes are created to replicate humans as closely as possible and cross does not even realize they are not a normal human. If they had Massively FTL+ combat speed and reactions, you would think they would notice. In a skell it just says "Massively FTL+ with Skell" and gives no reason. I am not sure why this is on the page as I can't think of any evidince for it.

Telethia: Nothing new for this just the same thing about no evidence for speed in skells for cross and elma.

Zanza: Zanza's Say's "Massively FTL+, likely Infinite (Superior to his creations the Telethia who are capable of keeping up and fighting entities this fast)" Zanza's speed is not necicarally greater than a telethia's. While he is more powerful than them, nothing neccicarally makes it so that he has to be faster than things that he creates.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't think the same think definitely happened here, but it does establish that teleportation is a thing that can happen. I am only providing one possibility

But that's the thing, you proposed the existence of a possibility. That doesn't make the calc any less valid.

The white whale can travel at lightspeed and it took them 2 years to reach it. I doesn't matter though b/c I couldn't figure out how to do the math.

I feel like it is very hard to explain this to someone who hasn't played the game, but I'll try. You see ganglion skells all the time in the game and they are pretty common enemies and bosses. Nothing you ever see them do remotely suggests they can move even close to that fast. I don't think one instance of they getting somewhere quickly, when teleportation is a thing that is clearly established to be able to happen in the universe is enough evidence to give them that speed.

Well again, they can simply be searching for the White Whale and having yet to find it. It seems like the White Whale went into hiding, so to speak. I can think of an example of this in another series off the top of my head, but using other verses is typically frowned upon, so I'll avoid doing so.

In addition, the bottom paragraph is... again, game mechanics. You're talking about how you see them in-game, which is game mechanics. Imagine trying to program something moving at that speed without making it obnoxious for the player. The point you've made is entirely moot.

Even if you believe that they can move that fast I would like to provide some evidence for why it should not scale to some other characters

Cross/Elma. When they do fight Ganglion skells in the game, in cutscenes and gameplay, they are not only not show to move that fast they are barely shown to move very quickly at all. I addition mimiosomes are created to replicate humans as closely as possible and cross does not even realize they are not a normal human. If they had Massively FTL+ combat speed and reactions, you would think they would notice. In a skell it just says "Massively FTL+ with Skell" and gives no reason. I am not sure why this is on the page as I can't think of any evidince for it.

This evidence is... incredibly flimsy at best. The Mimiosomes point isn't even evidence at all, humans can be at Massively FTL+ speeds in Xenoblade X, it seems. And as for the Skell, it's because they're comparable to Ganglion Skells, which are Massively FTL+ via the calculated feat.

Telethia: Nothing new for this just the same thing about no evidence for speed in skells for cross and elma.

Well I've addressed Cross and Elma, so consider this addressed as well

Zanza: Zanza's Say's "Massively FTL+, likely Infinite (Superior to his creations the Telethia who are capable of keeping up and fighting entities this fast)" Zanza's speed is not necicarally greater than a telethia's. While he is more powerful than them, nothing neccicarally makes it so that he has to be faster than things that he creates.

Literally why would Zanza not be faster than a Telethia? He's the final boss of the game, a literal god that created the Telethia who are inferior to him, etc.

Like I won't even lie, the concept of Zanza not scaling to the Telethia is ridiculous. Even in the absolute worst-case scenario, he'd still scale off the end-game Xenoblade 1 party, who could keep up with the Telethia

 

[Wildblack1]

In addition, the bottom paragraph is... again, game mechanics. You're talking about how you see them in-game, which is game mechanics. Imagine trying to program something moving at that speed without making it obnoxious for the player. The point you've made is entirely moot.

I'm not just saying that they don't move ftl I am saying that they don't even move fast.

This evidence is... incredibly flimsy at best. The Mimiosomes point isn't even evidence at all, humans can be at Massively FTL+ speeds in Xenoblade X, it seems.

Humans on earth before project exodus, are normal people who can do the same things normal people can do. It does not make sense to assume otherwise

And as for the Skell, it's because they're comparable to Ganglion Skells, which are Massively FTL+ via the calculated feat.

BLADE Skell are not Neciarally comparable to Ganglion ones. They are made by different people, with less technology than the ganglion have. They can fight Ganglion skells but so can Cross and Elma without them, and they are not given that speed.

Literally why would Zanza not be faster than a Telethia? He's the final boss of the game, a literal god that created the Telethia who are inferior to him, etc.

Like I won't even lie, the concept of Zanza not scaling to the Telethia is ridiculous. Even in the absolute worst-case scenario, he'd still scale off the end-game Xenoblade 1 party, who could keep up with the Telethia

That part is a fair point

One more thing to add. I think that they should downscale based on something from xenoblade 2.
Here (youtu.be/Phjv088BoVA?list=PLpVpBRIlzWuBhafF49DkSHb1RMyrtv390&t=47) jin says that he can accelerate his body to the speed of light. Not faster than it, to it. Here (youtu.be/GJkFvgZIHEs?list=PLpVpBRIlzWuBhafF49DkSHb1RMyrtv390&t=20) Jin says "how are you matching my speed?" to Pnuema and Rex. Not beating his speed, matching it. This implies that they can move at the speed of light and not faster. For Pneuma it already says "Superior to Telethia who are capable of fighting against entities who are this fast" If Pnuema can move at only the speed of light and she is superior to Telethia, The telethia should also be limited to the speed of light or below.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm not just saying that they don't move ftl I am saying that they don't even move fast.

Game mechanics. I will not repeat myself

Humans on earth before project exodus, are normal people who can do the same things normal people can do. It does not make sense to assume otherwise

The fact that they didn't notice implies that humans are capable of this in Xenoblade X. But, I've got an even better point:

Mimeosomes are supposed to closely replicate humans, but this indicates they aren't exactly like humans. Hell, Cross (a Mimeosome) is 5-B. Should be suddenly be 10-B now because he's made to closely replicate humans? No.

BLADE Skell are not Neciarally comparable to Ganglion ones. They are made by different people, with less technology than the ganglion have. They can fight Ganglion skells but so can Cross and Elma without them, and they are not given that speed.

You just explained why they scale. Also Cross and Elma at least have Massively FTL+ reactions and combat speed (though tbh that's incredibly outdated and they should be fully Massively FTL+)

That part is a fair point

One more thing to add. I think that they should downscale based on something from xenoblade 2.
Here (youtu.be/Phjv088BoVA?list=PLpVpBRIlzWuBhafF49DkSHb1RMyrtv390&t=47) jin says that he can accelerate his body to the speed of light. Not faster than it, to it. Here (youtu.be/GJkFvgZIHEs?list=PLpVpBRIlzWuBhafF49DkSHb1RMyrtv390&t=20) Jin says "how are you matching my speed?" to Pnuema and Rex. Not beating his speed, matching it. This implies that they can move at the speed of light and not faster. For Pneuma it already says "Superior to Telethia who are capable of fighting against entities who are this fast" If Pnuema can move at only the speed of light and she is superior to Telethia, The telethia should also be limited to the speed of light or below.

I'm not going through this again. Jin being only light speed was dismissed as death of the author, as it's wholly inconsistent with Xenoblade 2's other characters. Most notably, Mythra can perfectly react to her own attacks, a number of which are real light and/or stated to be light speed, meaning that Jin shouldn't have been able to blitz her and Rex (especially not with Foresight)

 

[Wildblack1]

Game mechanics. I will not repeat myself

If you had played the game what I said would make sense

The fact that they didn't notice implies that humans are capable of this in Xenoblade X. But, I've got an even better point:

Mimeosomes are supposed to closely replicate humans, but this indicates they aren't exactly like humans. Hell, Cross (a Mimeosome) is 5-B. Should be suddenly be 10-B now because he's made to closely replicate humans? No.

That's the reason I specified that Cross did not notice that they were a Mimeosome. If they did not notice, that implies that they are similar to humans in noticeable metrics. And no I do not think that they should be lowered to 10-B there are other things that they are strong at that would be less notable. For example durability(Athough I disagree with cross's durability because they had there arm destroyed by a regular gangleon skell here (youtu.be/fFQ3ghE5UGg?list=PLpVpBRIlzWuAPrRuKI4LZKMQiO4dIOWo8&t=132) and it's implied that they would die without treatment.). They could also have strong weapons that give them a lot of attack power that are not innately part of them or strong armor that gives them more durability.

I'm not going through this again. Jin being only light speed was dismissed as death of the author, as it's wholly inconsistent with Xenoblade 2's other characters. Most notably, Mythra can perfectly react to her own attacks, a number of which are real light and/or stated to be light speed, meaning that Jin shouldn't have been able to blitz her and Rex (especially not with Foresight)

Why does death of the author apply to The statement by Jin and not the Statement that Mythra's attacks are light speed. I think an attack description is more of a statement by the author than what a character says.
Also you are using the term Death of the Author wrong. To quote from wikipedia "'The Death of the Author' (French: La mort de l'auteur) is a 1967 essay by the French literary critic and theorist Roland Barthes (1915–1980). Barthes's essay argues against traditional literary criticism's practice of relying on the intentions and biography of an author to definitively explain the "ultimate meaning" of a text. Instead, the essay emphasizes the primacy of each individual reader's interpretation of the work over any "definitive" meaning intended by the author, a process in which subtle or unnoticed characteristics may be drawn out for new insight." It means that The ultimate meaning of a text is determined by what a reader interprets, not what the author intends. It does not mean you can or should wholly disregard parts of the text that you believe are wrong.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If you had played the game what I said would make sense

Not an argument. I don't need to have played the game to understand what game mechanics are.

That's the reason I specified that Cross did not notice that they were a Mimeosome. If they did not notice, that implies that they are similar to humans in noticeable metrics. And no I do not think that they should be lowered to 10-B there are other things that they are strong at that would be less notable. For example durability(Athough I disagree with cross's durability because they had there arm destroyed by a regular gangleon skell here (youtu.be/fFQ3ghE5UGg?list=PLpVpBRIlzWuAPrRuKI4LZKMQiO4dIOWo8&t=132) and it's implied that they would die without treatment.). They could also have strong weapons that give them a lot of attack power that are not innately part of them or strong armor that gives them more durability.

I don't think I follow. Your argument is that they can't be Massively FTL+ because they were made to closely resemble humans yet they weren't noticed to be not human until later. By that logic, why are they 5-B? Surely it'd be noticed that they weren't human given that they're Planet level. Guess it's time to downgrade them.

Your logic falls apart because you're picking and choosing where to apply it instead of remaining consistent with it.

Why does death of the author apply to The statement by Jin and not the Statement that Mythra's attacks are light speed. I think an attack description is more of a statement by the author than what a character says.

Because Mythra's light is... well, natural light. There's a precedent for Mythra's light being that speed due to actually being light, whereas Jin just has that statement of moving at light speed and that's it.

Also you are using the term Death of the Author wrong. To quote from wikipedia "'The Death of the Author' (French: La mort de l'auteur) is a 1967 essay by the French literary critic and theorist Roland Barthes (1915–1980). Barthes's essay argues against traditional literary criticism's practice of relying on the intentions and biography of an author to definitively explain the "ultimate meaning" of a text. Instead, the essay emphasizes the primacy of each individual reader's interpretation of the work over any "definitive" meaning intended by the author, a process in which subtle or unnoticed characteristics may be drawn out for new insight." It means that The ultimate meaning of a text is determined by what a reader interprets, not what the author intends. It does not mean you can or should wholly disregard parts of the text that you believe are wrong.

This is a whole lotta nothing tbh, we use "death of the author" in power scaling to signify statements within a work that are contradicted by feats, in a case where it's decided that the statement should be discarded rather than the feat. Also, regardless of if "death of the author" is the appropriate term, the fact remains that Jin blitzing Rex and Mythra despite them having light speed reactions and combat speed, while simultaneously claiming to move at light speed, makes absolutely zero sense.

Anyways, please stop this discussion about Jin's light speed stuff. It's derailing from the main point.

 

[Wildblack1]

I don't think I follow. Your argument is that they can't be Massively FTL+ because they were made to closely resemble humans yet they weren't noticed to be not human until later. By that logic, why are they 5-B? Surely it'd be noticed that they weren't human given that they're Planet level. Guess it's time to downgrade them.

Your logic falls apart because you're picking and choosing where to apply it instead of remaining consistent with it.

I already said in my previous post. They can have weapons or armor that make them more powerful. I assume you don't think they punched the Vita to destroy it. Additionally I do dissagree with the planet level attack power statement. It says "Planet level (Defeated the Vita which is superior to the Warship that destroyed the Earth)" The warship that destroyed the earth has Planet level attack potency but there isn't really any evidence that it has that level of Durability. additionaly why does the vita have to be more powerful than the warship. I agree that it makes sense that it would be but I don't think there is any hard evidence for that.

Because Mythra's light is... well, natural light. There's a precedent for Mythra's light being that speed due to actually being light, whereas Jin just has that statement of moving at light speed and that's it.

Here are mythra's 2 light speed statments 1. Ray of Punishment "Fire concentrated arrows of light at an enemy." Where did you get the idea that it is natual light. It makes more sense for it to be made of ether, as every other blade attack is. The attack Chroma dust in torna which is a similar attack where she apears to fire light the description is "Charge your sword with ether energy, then blast the enemy from mid-air." that uses ether not natural light. Additionally this moving at light speed does not neccicarally mean that mythra can. It is a projectile she fires not herself doing that. And the thing you said previously about mythra "react to her own attacks" does not make sense. She does not need to react to her own attack because she knows where she attacked already because she is the one who did the attack. 2. Photon Edge Move at light-speed to cut the enemy instantaneously. This attack seemingly controdicts jin's statment but there are ways that might not be true. This attack is a blade special. If we take the game mechanics to be true, mythra might not have had it charged to level 2 when jin attacked them. Even without that it is also possible that Jin can move at light speed for an extendend period of time and mythra only can for a short time. The attack is not particularly long.

This is a whole lotta nothing tbh, we use "death of the author" in power scaling to signify statements within a work that are contradicted by feats, in a case where it's decided that the statement should be discarded rather than the feat. Also, regardless of if "death of the author" is the appropriate term, the fact remains that Jin blitzing Rex and Mythra despite them having light speed reactions and combat speed, while simultaneously claiming to move at light speed, makes absolutely zero sense.

See the stuff I said about photon edge from the last section and, Mythra's speed feat is stated to be "At least Relativistic+, likely Speed of Light." Not Definitevly speed of light.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I already said in my previous post. They can have weapons or armor that make them more powerful. I assume you don't think they punched the Vita to destroy it. Additionally I do dissagree with the planet level attack power statement. It says "Planet level (Defeated the Vita which is superior to the Warship that destroyed the Earth)" The warship that destroyed the earth has Planet level attack potency but there isn't really any evidence that it has that level of Durability. additionaly why does the vita have to be more powerful than the warship. I agree that it makes sense that it would be but I don't think there is any hard evidence for that.

You're assuming a lot just for your argument to remain consistent. It's a lot easier to just say that the whole "not noticing they're not human" point straight up doesn't mean anything, rather than creating a bunch of assumptions and other things just to try and remotely justify such a flawed point of evidence.

Not even gonna get into the rest. I already asked you to stop derailing with the Jin stuff. Only thing I'll say is that I have no idea why you brought up Chroma Dust

 

[Wildblack1]

You're assuming a lot just for your argument to remain consistent. It's a lot easier to just say that the whole "not noticing they're not human" point straight up doesn't mean anything, rather than creating a bunch of assumptions and other things just to try and remotely justify such a flawed point of evidence.

Can you say what the things I'm asuuming are or why It is a flawed point of evidence. You can't just say that that is true without evidence. Additionally there have been plenty of times in the argument where you have used the Burden of proof fallacy. You have dissmised several of my arguments because they are not necciarily true, but you have the burden of proof. I don't have to prove that ganglion skells cannot move that fast, I just have to point out why the argument used to prove why they are is not neccicarly true.

Not even gonna get into the rest. I already asked you to stop derailing with the Jin stuff. Only thing I'll say is that I have no idea why you brought up Chroma Dust

You claimed that Mythra's Ray of Punishment was made out of natural light, and therefore moved at the speed of light. I said the Chroma dust is an attack that looks similar, it is also mythra shooting something that looks like light, and It's description says that it is made of ether, not natural light.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

You claimed that Mythra's Ray of Punishment was made out of natural light, and therefore moved at the speed of light. I said the Chroma dust is an attack that looks similar, it is also mythra shooting something that looks like light, and It's description says that it is made of ether, not natural light.

It's also stated to be a Photon Beam

 

[Wildblack1]

It's also stated to be a Photon Beam

Where? I read the description and I did ctrl f on the games script for photon and could not find it there.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In the actual game, when you summon Artifice Siren, they called it a Photon Beam at the top of the screen.

 

[Wildblack1]

In the actual game, when you summon Artifice Siren, they called it a Photon Beam at the top of the screen.

Wait do you mean the photon blade combo? If you attack an enemy with any light special it will display photon on the enemys health bar. This is just a name for the first level of a light blade combo It is not specific to any of mythra's attacks. https://xenoblade.fandom.com/wiki/Blade_Combo

 

[CloverDragon03]

Here are mythra's 2 light speed statments 1. Ray of Punishment "Fire concentrated arrows of light at an enemy." Where did you get the idea that it is natual light. It makes more sense for it to be made of ether, as every other blade attack is.

You do realize Ether is like... literally the source of everything, right? It's stated to be the source of all existence. And that would include the elements themselves. So it being comprised of Ether is actually a point in its favor, as Ether is the source of everything, including natural light and all the other natural elements.

The attack Chroma dust in torna which is a similar attack where she apears to fire light the description is "Charge your sword with ether energy, then blast the enemy from mid-air." that uses ether not natural light.

Already addressed

Additionally this moving at light speed does not neccicarally mean that mythra can. It is a projectile she fires not herself doing that. And the thing you said previously about mythra "react to her own attacks" does not make sense. She does not need to react to her own attack because she knows where she attacked already because she is the one who did the attack.

You're completely wrong on this. Photon Edge is a melee attack, so you need to actually be able to react to where you're going and where you're cutting at in order to land the attack successfully. In addition, she literally is able to fight on equal terms with those that can react to her attacks, including Photon Edge (such as Jin, Lora, etc.)

This attack seemingly controdicts jin's statment but there are ways that might not be true. This attack is a blade special. If we take the game mechanics to be true, mythra might not have had it charged to level 2 when jin attacked them. Even without that it is also possible that Jin can move at light speed for an extendend period of time and mythra only can for a short time. The attack is not particularly long.

"If we take game mechanics to be true." You rely on game mechanics again, and that's where your argument falls apart.

And once again: Give me something definitive. Your responses of "might not have" and "it could be" are meaningless because I'm providing concrete, definitive information while your rebuttals are lacking in such a thing. Rather, they're laced with uncertainties. And it makes much more sense to go with what's definitive vs. what's speculative.

I’ll say this again too since you didn’t listen the first time. This is about a completely separate speed thing, so please stop trying to bring up light speed Jin. It’s derailing

 

[Wildblack1]

You do realize Ether is like... literally the source of everything, right? It's stated to be the source of all existence. And that would include the elements themselves. So it being comprised of Ether is actually a point in its favor, as Ether is the source of everything, including natural light and all the other natural elements.

This is true I xenoblade 1's world but not in 2's. Xenoblade 2's world is based on earth. Before the conduit was discovered, There was no ether. It was created by the conduit and spread throughout the world.

You're completely wrong on this.

When I was saying this I was talking about Ray of Punishment not Photon Edge

Photon Edge is a melee attack, so you need to actually be able to react to where you're going and where you're cutting at in order to land the attack successfully. In addition, she literally is able to fight on equal terms with those that can react to her attacks, including Photon Edge (such as Jin, Lora, etc.)

When is it shown that Jin or Lora can react to Photon Edge? The only time when lora fights Mythra is when haze is restricting her power.

"If we take game mechanics to be true." You rely on game mechanics again, and that's where your argument falls apart.

I'll just repeat what I previously said. "Even without that it is also possible that Jin can move at light speed for an extendend period of time and mythra only can for a short time.." Also Mythra just finished fighting 3 other members of torna, so It is possible that she

And once again: Give me something definitive. Your responses of "might not have" and "it could be" are meaningless because I'm providing concrete, definitive information while your rebuttals are lacking in such a thing. Rather, they're laced with uncertainties. And it makes much more sense to go with what's definitive vs. what's speculative.

That's Burden of proof fallacy. "The burden of proof is always on the positive claim, and the person who makes the claim." I have made many claims that make it so your argument is not neccicaraly true. So you have the burden of proof to say that It definitely is, Not just that I am not guaranteed to be right. The example given for it is "'Goku is faster than light speed because you can't prove he's not!'" This is exactly what you are doing. Mythra is faster than light because you cannot prove she isn't

I’ll say this again too since you didn’t listen the first time. This is about a completely separate speed thing, so please stop trying to bring up light speed skin. It’s derailing

It is related. A little bit ago I made the claim that because it says that Pnuema is superior to telethia if she is only speed of light telethia must also be that or less. If you debunk that claim I will move on from this part of the argument. But I will also add something about the initial argument because you want me to.

There are 2 initial assumptions that I disagree with
1. "Distance = 6,000,000 light years" Why would they have to cross the entire federation to get to earth. That makes the assumption that a. Earth is on the very edge of the federation and b. The war started on the very edge of the federation, niether of which are necessarily true.
2. "I said it'd be 28 years... which is a massive lowball" The war probably already started by the time Elma left for earth, otherwise why would she know that there even was a war, or that It would specificly go to earth, I would argue that that It would make sense for the war to already be pretty close to earth for Elma to know that it was headed that way.

 

[CloverDragon03]

This is true I xenoblade 1's world but not in 2's. Xenoblade 2's world is based on earth. Before the conduit was discovered, There was no ether. It was created by the conduit and spread throughout the world.

You do realize both Xenoblade 1 and 2 have Ether... right? And Alvis is referring to "all existence," not just the world of the Bionis and Mechonis.

When I was saying this I was talking about Ray of Punishment not Photon Edge

I bring up Photon Edge because it's a light speed melee attack, which would require similar levels of reactions in order to carry out each slice.

When is it shown that Jin or Lora can react to Photon Edge? The only time when lora fights Mythra is when haze is restricting her power.

Haze doesn't restrict Mythra's power when she's fighting Lora, no. The only time she does so is in her fight with Brighid after she starts using her Siren. Speaking of which, her Siren can literally drop a ray of light (the same kind Mythra uses) and Brighid can dodge it.

And as for Photon Edge, the mere fact that this is a usable attack and nothing indicates it would blitz the likes of Lora or Jin is pretty telling.

I'll just repeat what I previously said. "Even without that it is also possible that Jin can move at light speed for an extendend period of time and mythra only can for a short time.." Also Mythra just finished fighting 3 other members of torna, so It is possible that she

I don't even get what you're trying to say with this. Mythra would still be able to react to light speed (she legit needs to in order to carry out each slice for Photon Edge, for example), yet Jin was blitzing her while supposedly moving at light speed. It's simply not consistent.

That's Burden of proof fallacy. "The burden of proof is always on the positive claim, and the person who makes the claim." I have made many claims that make it so your argument is not neccicaraly true. So you have the burden of proof to say that It definitely is, Not just that I am not guaranteed to be right. The example given for it is "'Goku is faster than light speed because you can't prove he's not!'" This is exactly what you are doing. Mythra is faster than light because you cannot prove she isn't

This is not what I'm doing and it's ridiculous that you'd try to label it as such tbh. I've given proper rebuttals, and all you've responded with is incredibly shaky "could be's" that don't even make any sense. If we invoke Occam's Razor, it would very much favor my arguments, because they're a lot clearer.

Just because you can give a response, that doesn't mean it's a good rebuttal.

It is related. A little bit ago I made the claim that because it says that Pnuema is superior to telethia if she is only speed of light telethia must also be that or less. If you debunk that claim I will move on from this part of the argument. But I will also add something about the initial argument because you want me to.

It's not, because Pneuma is not accepted as being only light speed. You'd need to change that first, and that'd require another thread. And quite frankly, I'm getting tired of this discussion. First you changed the pages without a CRT to reflect this belief, then you argued it on a message wall and it was rejected, then you made a CRT that included this point and it was rejected, and now you're arguing it again without a single new point being made. If you don't provide a new argument for this, it will not be accepted.

I don't need to wait for you yourself to consider the point "debunked", if it's been rejected already and you've provided nothing new, it will be rejected again.

Either provide new evidence or move on, because the old evidence was already rejected several times.

There are 2 initial assumptions that I disagree with
1. "Distance = 6,000,000 light years" Why would they have to cross the entire federation to get to earth. That makes the assumption that a. Earth is on the very edge of the federation and b. The war started on the very edge of the federation, niether of which are necessarily true.
2. "I said it'd be 28 years... which is a massive lowball" The war probably already started by the time Elma left for earth, otherwise why would she know that there even was a war, or that It would specificly go to earth, I would argue that that It would make sense for the war to already be pretty close to earth for Elma to know that it was headed that way.

1. It's much more likely to be on the edge considering where the Milky Way Galaxy (which houses Earth) is in real life. The Samaar Federation encompasses multiple galaxies, and even the distance between the Milky Way and its closest neighboring galaxy (Andromeda) is 2.5 million light years.
2. I explained this in my blog. Earth was not an immediate target. The war was said to "eventually" reach Earth.

I will reiterate. Just because you can make a response, that doesn't make it a good rebuttal that automatically makes my claim "not necessarily true." It needs proper substantiation rather than a bunch of "probably's"

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is true I xenoblade 1's world but not in 2's. Xenoblade 2's world is based on earth. Before the conduit was discovered, There was no ether. It was created by the conduit and spread throughout the world.

This is objectively false; Ether always existed upon creation. Everything in the Xeno Multiverse has always been made of Ether; and XB2's universe is just a parallel universe to XB1's universe as stated by the Architect about the Endless Universes being parallel to one another. And XB3 double downing on that given the plot of XB3 is literally the universes merging. While while Ether can have variables due to being different universes, it doesn't change the fact that even Earthly elements or Earth before it exploded along with the rest of the universe and formed the big multiverse has always been made of Ether.

 

[Wildblack1]

You do realize both Xenoblade 1 and 2 have Ether... right? And Alvis is referring to "all existence," not just the world of the Bionis and Mechonis.

Your own cutscene you linked disproves this "our worlds existence" And I do know both worlds have ether I explaned what ether is like in xc2 in my previous post.

Haze doesn't restrict Mythra's power when she's fighting Lora, no. The only time she does so is in her fight with Brighid after she starts using her Siren.

Yes she does Watch This() to 0:37 and this(). sentence. She doesn't fully restrict her power, but does partialy like she did to jin in the base game.

Speaking of which, her Siren can literally drop a ray of light (the same kind Mythra uses) and Brighid can dodge it.

Jin directly states that that attack is too heavy to reach lightspeed. Looking like light is not enough evidence to assume it moves at light speed.

And as for Photon Edge, the mere fact that this is a usable attack and nothing indicates it would blitz the likes of Lora or Jin is pretty telling.

Burden of proof though. Something has to indicate that Jin and Lora would be fast enough to dodge it. If nothing indicates either way we can't assume they can dodge it.

I don't even get what you're trying to say with this. Mythra would still be able to react to light speed (she legit needs to in order to carry out each slice for Photon Edge, for example), yet Jin was blitzing her while supposedly moving at light speed. It's simply not consistent.

Thats My bad I litterally forgot to write the entirety of what I was trying to say. Here is what I ment to say: "Even without that it is also possible that Jin can move at light speed for an extendend period of time and mythra only can for a short time.." Also Mythra just finished fighting 3 other members of torna, so It is possible that she is tired and could not move at light speed at that time.
One more thing that I'm not true sure is true but might be: The phrase speed of light in japanese is Hikari no sokudo(光の速度) Hikari is the Japanese name for mythra. It is possible that Speed of light is mistranslated and it should say something like Mythra's Speed instead, which would not imply any amount of speed she can move at.

This is not what I'm doing and it's ridiculous that you'd try to label it as such tbh. I've given proper rebuttals, and all you've responded with is incredibly shaky "could be's" that don't even make any sense. If we invoke Occam's Razor, it would very much favor my arguments, because they're a lot clearer.

Your rebuttles have been fairly logical but some of them have been aimed at saying that my arguments are not definitely true when you have to prove that my arguments are definitely not true. I will talk about this more on an argument you did this on in your response.

1. It's much more likely to be on the edge considering where the Milky Way Galaxy (which houses Earth) is in real life. The Samaar Federation encompasses multiple galaxies, and even the distance between the Milky Way and its closest neighboring galaxy (Andromeda) is 2.5 million light years.

You are misunderstanding my argument. The original post claims that they traveled 6 million light years, from one side of the federation to the exact opposite side. Even if they traveled from a neighoring galaxy 2.5 is not 6. Additionaly it's a war not just 1 battle there were probably a lot of battles some of which were in the milky way. It seems like one of those would be more likely to be the one that reached earth. You are trying to claim that my arguments are not neccicaraly true, which is correct, but does not prove your point. You are making the positive claim and therefore you have the burden of proof.

1. I explained this in my blog. Earth was not an immediate target. The war was said to "eventually" reach Earth

Where in the game did it say the they were only "eventually" going to reach earth If it was only eventually reaching earth how would elma have known it was going to and been able to warn them.

I will reiterate. Just because you can make a response, that doesn't make it a good rebuttal that automatically makes my claim "not necessarily true." It needs proper substantiation rather than a bunch of "probably's"

Thats just not true. A bunch of probablys do do that though. Again burdan of proof. You are making the positive claim so you must prove that It is true. You have to prove that the argument is not probably not true or possibly not true. You are only proving that your argument is not definitely not true.

 

[Wildblack1]

This is objectively false; Ether always existed upon creation. Everything in the Xeno Multiverse has always been made of Ether; and XB2's universe is just a parallel universe to XB1's universe as stated by the Architect about the Endless Universes being parallel to one another. And XB3 double downing on that given the plot of XB3 is literally the universes merging. While while Ether can have variables due to being different universes, it doesn't change the fact that even Earthly elements or Earth before it exploded along with the rest of the universe and formed the big multiverse has always been made of Ether.

Here is a video by luxin explaining how ether works in xc2. (youtu.be/xUtmxeSmiNU?t=856) If you don't beleive that though i could link you a bunch of cutscenes that say something similar.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Your own cutscene you linked disproves this "our worlds existence" And I do know both worlds have ether I explaned what ether is like in xc2 in my previous post.

"World" can mean any number of things depending on context, from a planet, to a universe, to a multiverse. In addition, I don't see how this would be any different for Alrest, given that the two universes were initially one. And lastly, Alvis of all people should understand that the same goes for Alrest, given that he is an Aegis

Yes she does Watch This() to 0:37 and this(). sentence. She doesn't fully restrict her power, but does partialy like she did to jin in the base game.

How do we know this is Haze restricting Mythra's power? We never get confirmation on what Haze is doing, and we know what it's like when Haze is restricting Mythra's power (as she's done so before during her fight with Brighid), so it seems more likely that Lora's just referring to Haze's general assistance, not necessarily her ability to restrict Blades' powers.

Jin directly states that that attack is too heavy to reach lightspeed. Looking like light is not enough evidence to assume it moves at light speed.

Source?

Edit: Found it, this translation is dubious at best, especially given the blatant contradiction since Mythra refers to her own attack as light speed. So Jin suddenly knows more about Mythra's own attack than Mythra herself? Not even mentioning the fact that this was brought up before and other translations of this were made note of.

Burden of proof though. Something has to indicate that Jin and Lora would be fast enough to dodge it. If nothing indicates either way we can't assume they can dodge it.

If Lora and Jin weren't fast enough to do so, then Mythra (who'd want to go for a victory by any means, given she's even willing to pull out Siren against Brighid) would simply use Photon Edge and outspeed them. Yet, she doesn't do so, indicating that Photon Edge wouldn't outspeed them, at least not to a noteworthy degree.

Thats My bad I litterally forgot to write the entirety of what I was trying to say. Here is what I ment to say: "Even without that it is also possible that Jin can move at light speed for an extendend period of time and mythra only can for a short time.." Also Mythra just finished fighting 3 other members of torna, so It is possible that she is tired and could not move at light speed at that time.

Except fighting multiple enemies back to back has no precedent of causing a decrease in speed for the person fighting them off. And even if that was the case, that wouldn't affect Mythra's reactions, nor would it change the fact that Jin was allegedly going at "light speed" when he blitzed Mythra and Rex. Again, it just makes no sense.

One more thing that I'm not true sure is true but might be: The phrase speed of light in japanese is Hikari no sokudo(光の速度) Hikari is the Japanese name for mythra. It is possible that Speed of light is mistranslated and it should say something like Mythra's Speed instead, which would not imply any amount of speed she can move at.

I'm not even gonna talk about this because that's leaning toward a name association fallacy and the theory at play here is wholly conjectural.

Your rebuttles have been fairly logical but some of them have been aimed at saying that my arguments are not definitely true when you have to prove that my arguments are definitely not true. I will talk about this more on an argument you did this on in your response.

Your arguments lack substantiation. You just say "it could probably be this" and don't elaborate further, making your rebuttals incredibly weak because you basically just came up with any form of "alternative reason" to claim what I'm saying is not necessarily true.

You are misunderstanding my argument. The original post claims that they traveled 6 million light years, from one side of the federation to the exact opposite side. Even if they traveled from a neighoring galaxy 2.5 is not 6. Additionaly it's a war not just 1 battle there were probably a lot of battles some of which were in the milky way. It seems like one of those would be more likely to be the one that reached earth. You are trying to claim that my arguments are not neccicaraly true, which is correct, but does not prove your point. You are making the positive claim and therefore you have the burden of proof.

This response highlights my problem with your arguments. Just because you can respond to my arguments by saying anything, doesn't mean what you're saying is true. You need to have some logic in your responses, otherwise they're just a load of nothing. Example: Here. First, you assert that some battles were in the Milky Way, yet there's no evidence of this. In addition, 6 million light years is the radius of the Samaar Federation, so they don't even need to travel across the entire thing. Hence, the calc is actually lowballed.

And also, another big issue in your argumentation is the fact that you believe it's up to you to decide whether a point of yours is debunked. It's not. That's for the staff to decide, which is how they decide whether to accept or reject your thread.

Where in the game did it say the they were only "eventually" going to reach earth If it was only eventually reaching earth how would elma have known it was going to and been able to warn them.

That's the thing, Elma was literally heading to Earth because they'd only "eventually" reach Earth, meaning Elma could hurry on ahead and warn them.

Thats just not true. A bunch of probablys do do that though. Again burdan of proof. You are making the positive claim so you must prove that It is true. You have to prove that the argument is not probably not true or possibly not true. You are only proving that your argument is not definitely not true.

The caveat is that those "probably's" have to actually make sense. Yours have not, they're entirely conjectural without much in the way of actual substantiation. By this logic, you could literally say anything and suddenly my claim is "not necessarily true"

We're going in circles at this rate. I'll call some staff

 

[Lonkitt]

Seeing very poor arguments in the OP overall

Gotta disagree with this hard

 

[Wildblack1]

"World" can mean any number of things depending on context, from a planet, to a universe, to a multiverse. In addition, I don't see how this would be any different for Alrest, given that the two universes were initially one. And lastly, Alvis of all people should understand that the same goes for Alrest, given that he is an Aegis

But you were specificly arguing that "Alvis is referring to 'all existence,' not just the world of the Bionis and Mechonis." Here is a video that explains how ether in xenoblade 2 works youtu.be/xUtmxeSmiNU?t=856

How do we know this is Haze restricting Mythra's power? We never get confirmation on what Haze is doing, and we know what it's like when Haze is restricting Mythra's power (as she's done so before during her fight with Brighid), so it seems more likely that Lora's just referring to Haze's general assistance, not necessarily her ability to restrict Blades' powers.

In the second part I linked Addam Directly says that Haze's power to restrict other blade is indispencable for training.

Source?

Edit: Found it, this translation is dubious at best, especially given the blatant contradiction since Mythra refers to her own attack as light speed. So Jin suddenly knows more about Mythra's own attack than Mythra herself? Not even mentioning the fact that this was brought up before and other translations of this were made note of.

Do you have a source for the translation being dubious? As for jin knowing more than mythra, He can manipulate particles, so it he probably can also tell their propertiies. It also makes sense for mythra's character for her to overestimate her abilities. It could also just be plot induced stupidity because they want Jin to say that line. Additionally To quote the xenoblade wiki "Jin's ice element paired with his true form's ability to use elementary particles to outpace Mythra's Foresight may be a reference to the Bose-Einstein condensate, a state of matter achieved through cooling to nearly absolute zero that is known to slow light traveling through it." So it is very plausable that mythra's attacks are normally light speed but are slowed down here.

If Lora and Jin weren't fast enough to do so, then Mythra (who'd want to go for a victory by any means, given she's even willing to pull out Siren against Brighid) would simply use Photon Edge and outspeed them. Yet, she doesn't do so, indicating that Photon Edge wouldn't outspeed them, at least not to a noteworthy degree.

This is training not a fight. She saw Brigid as an enemy, but she knows Lora and haze and they are just sparing.

Except fighting multiple enemies back to back has no precedent of causing a decrease in speed for the person fighting them off. And even if that was the case, that wouldn't affect Mythra's reactions, nor would it change the fact that Jin was allegedly going at "light speed" when he blitzed Mythra and Rex. Again, it just makes no sense.

I'm not even gonna talk about this because that's leaning toward a name association fallacy and the theory at play here is wholly conjectural.

It really isn't. Association fallacy is basicly the exact opposite of this. This point is not very important thought so you don't need to counter it and I wont continue to argue for it.

Your arguments lack substantiation. You just say "it could probably be this" and don't elaborate further, making your rebuttals incredibly weak because you basically just came up with any form of "alternative reason" to claim what I'm saying is not necessarily true.

I think that generally the Probablys I am saying are generally plausable. and If I have a plausable reason that what you are arguing could be false You have to counter it.

This response highlights my problem with your arguments. Just because you can respond to my arguments by saying anything, doesn't mean what you're saying is true. You need to have some logic in your responses, otherwise they're just a load of nothing. Example: Here. First, you assert that some battles were in the Milky Way, yet there's no evidence of this.

But you don't have evidence that there are not and you are making the positive claim. Am I missunderstanding what burden of proof falacy is? If I am please explain it to me

In addition, 6 million light years is the radius of the Samaar Federation, so they don't even need to travel across the entire thing. Hence, the calc is actually lowballed.

The speed someone can travel is distance/time. If the distance is bigger the speed is bigger, so it would be an overestimation.

That's the thing, Elma was literally heading to Earth because they'd only "eventually" reach Earth, meaning Elma could hurry on ahead and warn them.

As I asked previously, where is the word eventually used in game?

The caveat is that those "probably's" have to actually make sense. Yours have not, they're entirely conjectural without much in the way of actual substantiation. By this logic, you could literally say anything and suddenly my claim is "not necessarily true"

I think that what I am saying generally makes sense. If you have an example of when I said something that was not, please tell me.