Problems with Kriemhild Gretchen.

[SomebodyData]

Except that's not a contradiction?.... That's the same thing as me saying that Kyubey being an alien is a contradiction because we don't see it coming from space. Or that the Ing aren't born from Phazon because we don't see it directly. Ignoring the very fact that this is literally minutes (episode wise) after all the witches have been destroyed by Madoka to begin with so it would be impossible to show that.

It's literally born right after Madoka went conceptual order 66 on all the witches.

UKG >>> UM comes from the fact that UM can't kill UKG even when UKG is at its weakest and that its curses are capable of destroying the multiverse (Again, in Wraith Arc), something that Madoka's counterpart (The accumulated hope doesn't even begin to compare with), there is probably more but these are just from the top of my head.

"An arrow"... If you can't even remember that UKG was "destroyed" by a hurricane of arrows, you 100% sure you want to do this? And "don't need to know everything to find it something fishy" is great and all, but it also means that the debate stems from you lacking information accessible on the revision threads.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Except that's not a contradiction?.... That's the same thing as me saying that Kyubey being an alien is a contradiction because we don't see it coming from space. Or that the Ing aren't born from Phazon because we don't see it directly. Ignoring the very fact that this is literally minutes (episode wise) after all the witches have been destroyed by Madoka to begin with so it would be impossible to show that.

If I said that we don't see it having any connection, I honestly apologize. I meant to say that its inception has nothing to do with witches. What fits my examples more would be me taking Skarmory and finding something that says it's the fusion of two Togepis. Or having a lava monster and something that says it's made of flowers.

It's literally born right after Madoka went conceptual order 66 on all the witches.

Exactly. Witches literally don't exist at all, so it can't be the despair of them, as there's no despair there. And its not like Digimon as UKG is the only one to be nonexistent. Speaking of which, I'm probably being nitpicky, but why are we using notes? If it was in the script, sure. But notes?

UKG >>> UM comes from the fact that UM can't kill UKG even when UKG is at its weakest and that its curses are capable of destroying the multiverse (Again, in Wraith Arc), something that Madoka's counterpart (The accumulated hope doesn't even begin to compare with)

Regen is a thing, which is what makes UKG so impressive to begin with. I also probably need to read the Wraith Arc, but after this, I'm hesitant.

"An arrow"... If you can't even remember that UKG was "destroyed" by a hurricane of arrows, you 100% sure you want to do this? And "don't need to know everything to find it something fishy" is great and all, but it also means that the debate stems from you lacking information accessible on the revision threads.


Semantics, m'bro ovo. Anyway, there's like, four several hundred post threads I'd have to read through. I'd rather just retread old grounds (is that how the saying goes?)

 

[SomebodyData]

Oh, I see. Not sure if that's inherently correct though. Especially given UKG's karmic relationship with UM, and UM has already been stated to have absorbed borderline (Exceptions are there obviously with the introduction of Rebellion) every magical girl that ever has, is, or will be. So if Madoka has every magical girl, then UKG having every witch would still follow what is shown. Not to mention that the witch card descriptions exist to give info on the vague nature of witches to begin with, especially someone like UKG (Who doesn't even technically have an official name).

I mean, we are talking about a non-existent being. Non-existant despair is something in UKG's ballpark easily.

These notes are canonical though. Nagisa, for example, has her wish (As Charlotte) in the notes before she was even a character. Some witch card descriptions (Like Walpurgis if I remember correctly) even come from there.

The point was more that UKG's full potential is such a threat, she has to fight it at her weakest and even then, fails to do so. Wraith Arc gets confusing, so you might have to re-read it a few times (The poor guy a few posts up even thought UKG was actually just KG, for example). Heck, it took the entire PMMM fanbase here to re-read it a few times and seems to be misunderstood by the general fanbase overall at times.

Most of the relevant posts are in the op or a few posts down tho ovo. But if you don't want to, its okay.

 

[RKGenki]

I feel like a little explanation about the powers in PMMM verse is needed now.

The power level of magical girls depends entirely on their fate potential; when they make a wish that potential is turned into their hopes, directly related to the wish, and it gives them all their powers. When a mg becomes a witch, that same hope is turned into despair, retaining the same powers and sometimes even adding a little more.

UKG now, being the witch form of the Madoka that has gatered all the hope and despair of the mg in the multiverse, when born is born from all this despair bearing the powers of every single mg (and so witches) of the multiverse including Madoka (and excluding Homura because Rebellion)

 

[Kaltias]

Low tier stuff for Ophelia and Oktavia. All that proves is that UKG would have Madoka's arrows. As Matt said to me, you have to prove that it can have the OP stuff before it can copy it.

Yes, because Ophelia and Oktavia themselves are low tier. Point is, a witch keeps the abilities of her magical girl self. It's not about copying, it's about being literally a superior version.

Really it isn't different from how we treat Pokemon and Digimon with their evolutions.

Prove to me that TD Lavos has the powers of its 5-A self. Same logic.

Considering that Godoka has to absorb all the other magical girls, false equivalency.

1) That's literally how Ult. Madoka became such to begin with, we see normal Madoka being the one who takes their soul.

2) And how does that contradicts the fact that this despair has to end up somewhere?

It's like the first rule of PMMM. Create the brightest light and you will create the darkest shadow.

Hell i'm not even making up the light-shadow example.

"If the world bears into the darkness, light the world and it will also make a shadow. I recognize that and thus I am a magical girl. So I will continue to bring both light and shadows to those who are not magical girls, who are filled with sorrow, and they will be released by my hands."
	~ Holy Mami's Resolutio​

Just because it's only half applied doesn't mean ya not the logic being used.

Except that you are comparing someone who fights someone else, just because it wants to (Dialga and Palkia) to someone who literally dedicated her own existance to the complete destruction of the other (Madoka and UKG).

False equivalency. If I was bringing up Godoka, you would have a point.

Uh no. You are saying that the concept of destroying witches isn't actively trying to destroy a witch (Which is even contradicted by the bit of UKG that we actually see on screen).

The concept is Madoka.

She shot an arrow.

She also wiped her from existence and sealed her ass into a nonexistent multiverse because she could not kill her.

I'll use Palkia and Dialga again. They passively Erase things from existence when fighting each other. Yet. Only Darkrai has the resistance to existence erasure. Why not Grovyle and Dusknoir, is the protagonists of PMD2? Because Darkrai is the only one who fights them when there's an instance of them doing it. Same logic applies here. What thing dog Madoka's are passive anyway?

Because Dusknoir and Grovyle fought a weakened Dialga. But that's besides the point.

If they fought 2-B Dialga i'd make a CRT myself to add that to the profile, because at this point saying "Dialga could have killed those dudes by standing there too hard but preferred to be beaten till KO" is an assumption that makes as much sense as "Maybe Arceus isn't actually superior to the Creation Trio and they are all good actors who pretended that it's much stronger than them".

Also Madoka doesn't have a dog, she has a cat

Show it. If you show it, I'll shut up.

Homu posted the scan above. These two. There is also this one.

I've said it once, I've said it 100 times. Show it. All of these are leaps in logic.

Which scans exactly? UKG talking to and recognizing Homura?

Here you go. Everything is here.

Kal, you're one of my favorite people on this site, and so is SD.

• hugs* It's all good now.

GEoM shouldn't have 'em either

I'll tell you a secret, I don't care if UKG has those resistances or not.

What I do care about is that there aren't double standards.

I'm tired of "Look for evidence that this stuff works on 2-As when every other verse just assume it".

If it's decided that it's not enough, by all means, i'll remove those resistances personally.

But I don't want to see it applied only here.