CelestialVortex01
He/Him- 333
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wsp
so I was bored as always and was checking some profiles cause why not, and when I had a look at Goku's profile for the 8th quadrillion time this month, I noticed that immeasurable speed goku was considered as an outlier? If not completely abandoned and was treated as analytical prediction (that's weird) anyway after reading through the crt that was focused on discussing that situation it didn't really make any sense imo so I have multiple problems with it.
1.Goku's Feat Against Hit Is Clear: During Gokuβs fight with Hit, he literally moves through time to counter Hitβs attack, which is the exact definition of immeasurable speed. Goku moving in time makes it a straightforward feat, not an outlier.
Exactly at (0:13)
1.5. Not only did it happen once, but it was shown twice!!!!
In episode 111 during Jiren's fight against hit, jiren was explicitly shown to not just blitz hit mid-combat but he also was able to perceive hit during time-skipping (after which he recognized that the ability hit was using is non-other than the time-skip technique) which backs up Goku's feat from earlier, showing how it's actually consistent with the feat and not just outlier
1.75 (
) Time Cage doesn't debunk immeasurable speed!
The Time Cage is explicitly designed to lock Jiren in a state of frozen time. Jiren breaks out not by overpowering the technique through raw speed but by sheer strength and willpower, (Given by the fact that hit himself admitted that he can't keep jiren frozen due to the lack of power he has).
which shows that immeasurable speed doesnβt inherently negate time-based abilities. This debunks the idea that speed alone would immediately solve time-related problems or restrictions like Hit's techniques.
2-0.1 (
) It Doesn't Disprove Immeasurable Speed: Jiren breaking free doesnβt mean the characters arenβt capable of immeasurable speedin'; it just shows that the series treats time manipulation as something separate from raw speed. Hitβs ability is a time-altering technique, not something that directly correlates to how fast someone is moving. Even at immeasurable speed, characters still get affected by abilities that manipulate time itself (given by the fact that the time cage was bypassed through sheer strength), not to confuse it with time-skip 
2.The Tournament of Power Argument: People say that because the Tournament of Power lasted 48 minutes, Goku couldnβt have immeasurable speed, umm did we forget about the tons of events that happened during literally a single minute in the T.O.P? the characters in Dragon Ball donβt always fight at their maximum speed throughout a battle. Just because the tournament had a time limit doesnβt mean every fighter was going all-out the entire time. Thereβs no reason to assume that Goku, or any other character, was constantly moving at immeasurable speeds for 48 minutes straight. Theyβre pacing themselves, strategizing, or even holding back depending on the opponent literally backed up by the fact that, Goku and the others are clearly conserving energy, recovering, or adjusting to the flow of the battle. The fact that the tournament lasted 48 minutes just shows that they werenβt all fighting at immeasurable speeds every second, not that they canβt reach those speeds when needed (like Goku did against Hit).
2.5. Tournament Pacing is Dictated by Plot, Not Speed:
The 48-minute timeframe is purely a plot device and doesnβt reflect the actual speed at which characters are moving. Characters like Goku and Jiren can move so fast that they become almost frozen to lesser fighters, yet the tournament still progresses at a manageable pace. This isnβt because their speeds are limited, but because the narrative needs the fights to be digestible for the audience. If we applied strict physics, even MFTL+ combatants would end the tournament in a matter of moments, making the 48-minute argument unreliable for measuring speed limits so by that logic even MFTL+ speeds should be considered as an outlier according to the Wiki's logic.
3.Instant Transmission Doesn't Disprove Immeasurable Speed: Goku using Instant Transmission is more about convenience and strategy and accuracy. Just because he uses IT doesnβt mean he lacks immeasurable speed; it's about choosing the fastest way to get around, depending on the situation for e.g if Both X and Y have immeasurable speeds and Y>X interms of speed so X had to use instant transmission inorder to atleast be able to keep up with Y's speed (which was the case with Goku vs Jiren at the very beginning of the T.O.P)
4.Whis' Travel Speed Isn't a Contradiction: People argue that Whis traveling from Beerus' planet to Earth in 35 minutes contradicts immeasurable speed, but that's missing the point. Just like Goku using Instant Transmission, Whis' travel speed doesnβt have to represent his full combat capabilities. Traveling through space and fighting at immeasurable speed are completely different contexts, and just because it took Whis 35 minutes doesnβt mean he can't move immeasurably in a fight. It's more about practicality than speed limits in these cases.
5.How come one can go from MFTL+ speeds to immeasurable by using finite multiplers?? :
since when was that a problem? Literally Goku who during the BoG arc threatened to destroy the entire macrocosom which includes multiple space-time continuums via SSJG alone which is literally accepted to have finite multiplers (160,000) iirc so goku went from affecting 3D structures to almost destroying 4D structures via a finite multipler, so speed shouldn't be a problem with kaioken literally making goku jump from MFTL+ to immeasurable speed via a finite multipler
6. Fusion Time Limit and Power Strain: Why Speed Isn't a Factor:
Even with MFTL+ speeds, fights should theoretically feel like they last an eternity to the fighters themselves. Moving at speeds far beyond light means that from the perspective of someone slower or at normal speed, the battle would appear to be happening almost instantaneously. Yet, despite this, the fusion time limit has always been a factor in Dragon Ball. If the time limit didnβt matter at MFTL+ speeds, we would see the same inconsistency even without introducing immeasurable speed into the equation. The time limit is affected by energy, not how fast they fight.
Vegito fighting Goku Black, who is relative in power, doesnβt change how fusion works. Even if they are moving at immeasurable speeds, the fusion time limit would still be based on energy expenditure rather than time passed. The speed at which Vegito moves doesnβt affect the fusion time running out because the mechanism isnβt tied to speed; itβs tied to the strain of power. As with MFTL+ speed, the time limit doesnβt change whether theyβre fighting faster-than-light or immeasurable-speed opponents.
so I was bored as always and was checking some profiles cause why not, and when I had a look at Goku's profile for the 8th quadrillion time this month, I noticed that immeasurable speed goku was considered as an outlier? If not completely abandoned and was treated as analytical prediction (that's weird) anyway after reading through the crt that was focused on discussing that situation it didn't really make any sense imo so I have multiple problems with it.
1.Goku's Feat Against Hit Is Clear: During Gokuβs fight with Hit, he literally moves through time to counter Hitβs attack, which is the exact definition of immeasurable speed. Goku moving in time makes it a straightforward feat, not an outlier.
Exactly at (0:13)
1.5. Not only did it happen once, but it was shown twice!!!!
In episode 111 during Jiren's fight against hit, jiren was explicitly shown to not just blitz hit mid-combat but he also was able to perceive hit during time-skipping (after which he recognized that the ability hit was using is non-other than the time-skip technique) which backs up Goku's feat from earlier, showing how it's actually consistent with the feat and not just outlier
1.75 (
) Time Cage doesn't debunk immeasurable speed! The Time Cage is explicitly designed to lock Jiren in a state of frozen time. Jiren breaks out not by overpowering the technique through raw speed but by sheer strength and willpower, (Given by the fact that hit himself admitted that he can't keep jiren frozen due to the lack of power he has).
which shows that immeasurable speed doesnβt inherently negate time-based abilities. This debunks the idea that speed alone would immediately solve time-related problems or restrictions like Hit's techniques.
2-0.1 (
) It Doesn't Disprove Immeasurable Speed: Jiren breaking free doesnβt mean the characters arenβt capable of immeasurable speedin'; it just shows that the series treats time manipulation as something separate from raw speed. Hitβs ability is a time-altering technique, not something that directly correlates to how fast someone is moving. Even at immeasurable speed, characters still get affected by abilities that manipulate time itself (given by the fact that the time cage was bypassed through sheer strength), not to confuse it with time-skip 2.The Tournament of Power Argument: People say that because the Tournament of Power lasted 48 minutes, Goku couldnβt have immeasurable speed, umm did we forget about the tons of events that happened during literally a single minute in the T.O.P? the characters in Dragon Ball donβt always fight at their maximum speed throughout a battle. Just because the tournament had a time limit doesnβt mean every fighter was going all-out the entire time. Thereβs no reason to assume that Goku, or any other character, was constantly moving at immeasurable speeds for 48 minutes straight. Theyβre pacing themselves, strategizing, or even holding back depending on the opponent literally backed up by the fact that, Goku and the others are clearly conserving energy, recovering, or adjusting to the flow of the battle. The fact that the tournament lasted 48 minutes just shows that they werenβt all fighting at immeasurable speeds every second, not that they canβt reach those speeds when needed (like Goku did against Hit).
2.5. Tournament Pacing is Dictated by Plot, Not Speed:
The 48-minute timeframe is purely a plot device and doesnβt reflect the actual speed at which characters are moving. Characters like Goku and Jiren can move so fast that they become almost frozen to lesser fighters, yet the tournament still progresses at a manageable pace. This isnβt because their speeds are limited, but because the narrative needs the fights to be digestible for the audience. If we applied strict physics, even MFTL+ combatants would end the tournament in a matter of moments, making the 48-minute argument unreliable for measuring speed limits so by that logic even MFTL+ speeds should be considered as an outlier according to the Wiki's logic.
3.Instant Transmission Doesn't Disprove Immeasurable Speed: Goku using Instant Transmission is more about convenience and strategy and accuracy. Just because he uses IT doesnβt mean he lacks immeasurable speed; it's about choosing the fastest way to get around, depending on the situation for e.g if Both X and Y have immeasurable speeds and Y>X interms of speed so X had to use instant transmission inorder to atleast be able to keep up with Y's speed (which was the case with Goku vs Jiren at the very beginning of the T.O.P)
4.Whis' Travel Speed Isn't a Contradiction: People argue that Whis traveling from Beerus' planet to Earth in 35 minutes contradicts immeasurable speed, but that's missing the point. Just like Goku using Instant Transmission, Whis' travel speed doesnβt have to represent his full combat capabilities. Traveling through space and fighting at immeasurable speed are completely different contexts, and just because it took Whis 35 minutes doesnβt mean he can't move immeasurably in a fight. It's more about practicality than speed limits in these cases.
5.How come one can go from MFTL+ speeds to immeasurable by using finite multiplers?? :
since when was that a problem? Literally Goku who during the BoG arc threatened to destroy the entire macrocosom which includes multiple space-time continuums via SSJG alone which is literally accepted to have finite multiplers (160,000) iirc so goku went from affecting 3D structures to almost destroying 4D structures via a finite multipler, so speed shouldn't be a problem with kaioken literally making goku jump from MFTL+ to immeasurable speed via a finite multipler
6. Fusion Time Limit and Power Strain: Why Speed Isn't a Factor:
Even with MFTL+ speeds, fights should theoretically feel like they last an eternity to the fighters themselves. Moving at speeds far beyond light means that from the perspective of someone slower or at normal speed, the battle would appear to be happening almost instantaneously. Yet, despite this, the fusion time limit has always been a factor in Dragon Ball. If the time limit didnβt matter at MFTL+ speeds, we would see the same inconsistency even without introducing immeasurable speed into the equation. The time limit is affected by energy, not how fast they fight.
Vegito fighting Goku Black, who is relative in power, doesnβt change how fusion works. Even if they are moving at immeasurable speeds, the fusion time limit would still be based on energy expenditure rather than time passed. The speed at which Vegito moves doesnβt affect the fusion time running out because the mechanism isnβt tied to speed; itβs tied to the strain of power. As with MFTL+ speed, the time limit doesnβt change whether theyβre fighting faster-than-light or immeasurable-speed opponents.
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