Problems with Captain Titus and Nemeroth

[Crabwhale]

Now, their current rating from this. Basically a Greater Daemon surviving a massive planetary explosion.

And already, we run into our first problem. Daemon Princes do NOT equal Greater Daemons. Daemon Princes can be Greater Daemons, but it is far more common for them to be far weaker than the aforementioned rating.

We also run into our second problem with Memeroth not being a proper Daemon Prince at the time. Like, he wasn't even half turned at the point where Titus cornered him and killed him, which even if the above problem wasn't existent, would immediately make any scaling we can extract from Greater Daemons or even other Daemon Princes completely mute.

My proposal: either delete the profiles, and remake them into High 6-C (what with Memeroth being in a suit of Terminator armor and all), or just change the tiers and be done with it.

 

[Wokistan]

I believe that the generic Daemon Prince/weaker Daemon rating we scale to by default is Velthinar's Low 5-B, but honestly if Nemeroth wasn't even a full daemon prince at that point I don't really know if we should scale to that either.

I feel like there's probably more profiles that scale to High 5-A that shouldn't out there, as Storm Prince was a rather powerful GD in the first place and that feat was when he had basically absorbed the planet himself.

 

[DMUA]

I don't remember if they completed their transformation with the warp based sacrifice or not, but yeah they shouldn't scale to the Storm Prince

 

[Crabwhale]

Well, Matt has informed me that Daemon Princes can be weak af. As in, bordering on Tier 6 weak, if I am remembering correctly.

 

[Crabwhale]

I don't remember if they completed their transformation with the warp based sacrifice or not, but yeah they shouldn't scale to the Storm Prince

He didn't. Titus caught him in the middle of it, then beat his head into a pulp.

 

[Wokistan]

That's why I'm not really sure that we should even scale to Velthinar, given the low end DPs and that this guy wasn't even done with his metamorphosis when he was killed.

Tbf this is the same series where a shard of Khaine can get killed by 3 carnifexes in one shot and kill Skarbrand in another, but inconsistencies being present like that would only really necessitate more being there to substantiate the higher scalings, which doesn't seem present here. Putting him at tier 6 via the armor seems fine.

 

[Konaguna]

If you had actually understood, you would have seen a possibly next to the rating. I never said they were dwarf star

This is because Nemeroth still showed signs of life after he seemingly disappeared into the warp

 

[Wokistan]

That's sorta how daemons work though. Very few things can permakill them from the materium (basically just Gorechild, the Emperor and his sword, Vulkan's hammer, and the Yncarne) so you usually just banish them for a while. You don't need to be storm prince level for that.

 

[Konaguna]

He specifically underwent transformation to become a daemon Prince, he was never a Daemon, he was a psyker. Last I remember, some fodder Daemon prince was like planet but idk.

I'm fine with downgrading them, I only put them there due to Memeroth's dobious transformation

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Titus should be High 6-C because Nemeroth wasn't even fully transformed when he died.

 

[Wokistan]

DPs are daemonic enough to persist in the warp after death, and it also happens to perfectly non daemonic individuals all the time. Planet level fodder greater daemons exist yeah, but the average greater daemon is still way above the power curve in comparison to every other race and Greater Daemons as a whole aren't really fodder in the context of the verse (The strongest ones are on the level of literal gods) which is why manifesting one is such a big deal (alongside all the corruption stuff). Storm Prince isn't even fodder under his own classifications, and remember that Greater Daemons are usually above Daemon Princes.

 

[Konaguna]

How was he not fully transformed? If there's a way an Astartes can avoid death by warp banishment then let's hear it. Because last as far as I know, becoming a DP is the only way

 

[Crabwhale]

Because both dialogue and his appearance say so. Titus disrupts the ritual just before it is complete. His appearance is not uniformly daemonic, as it should be, instead being a sort of fusion of both.

And again, Daemon Princes can still have power that is relatively insignificant, so even if he was a full one, it would still only garner a "High 6-C, likely higher" rating.

 

[Konaguna]

Yeah, because Space Marines can totally dissipate into the warp and live on.

Not disagreeing, that's why I put a Possibly on it

 

[Crabwhale]

What does that have anything to do with his attack potency?

Also, when is it stated he'll be back? I've seen absolutely nothing to imply he can get back from the head-splosion Titus put him through.

 

[Konaguna]

Hold that thought, I got some things to do, serious things.

 

[Crabwhale]

If you're talking about the last line of dialogue he has, he is a psyker. A final psychic message just to toy with Titus after he's already been handed his ass seems like pretty standard procedure.

For all we know, it could just be his consciousness slipping into the Warp. We can't take it as definitive evidence at any level of him attaining full Daemonhood, especially with how it's contradicted by everything else.

 

[Konaguna]

But you can't actually prove it, and why would he even do that, makes no sense. He asked if he'd join him, in a sense ornk Titus already being corrupted. Makes a pretty strong point of his status.

It's only contradicted by his half-half appearance and that's it. Yeah he says that he ain't perfect yet but he had enough time to undergo his transformation during his fight.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree his AP needs to be lowered, but I don't fully disagree with him not being a DP

And sorry for the late reply, I had to lay out rat poison

 

[Crabwhale]

It's okay, no need to rush.

See, here's the thing: while it's never stated he isn't a Daemon Prince yet, it also isn't stated that he is either.

He never boasts that he's ASCENDED TO A HIGHER PLANE! or something like that, which for someone like him would be a given I'd say.

Also, Titus makes a big point of killing Memeroth before he has the chance to become a DP. Hell, the whole game makes a big point that if he does become a full DP, he will wreck everyone and so they need to stop him immediately before he does that.

With all that said, the only evidence for him being a full DP is that last line of dialogue, and even that is iffy at best, while the notion is contradicted by numerous things. With all that said, I think it would be far safer to just stick with "High 6-C" based on Termi armor and just stick a "higher" for his half-daemon/furry form.

 

[Crabwhale]

So, should the change be applied?

 

[Konaguna]

I'll just say this. I still do believe he became a DP. It's unlikely he's used any psychic abilities for his last line and in order for him to dissipate in the warp he'd need to become a full DP in order to be fully composed of warp energy.

But I do agree that changes need to be made, so edit away I guess

 

[Crabwhale]

In the meanwhile, I'll see what I can do for rendering the pics as well.

 

[Crabwhale]

Or at the very least, finding better ones, as the ones currently there aren't quite what I would prefer.

 

[Konaguna]

IF you find a full body pic, I can seperate him from the background with PS

 

[Crabwhale]

And finished.

 

[Crabwhale]

Should this be closed now?

 

[Wokistan]

yeah