Problem with Egg Dragoon, Werehog, and Sonic

[Inverted_Tempest]

I mostly have a problem with the current scaling. It is that Sonic the Werehog is rated as 5-A for fighting the Egg Dragoon, which both of them share 5-A ratings for being powered by Dark Gaia energy.

My problem with this comes in where Base Sonic is rated as only 5-B when he has fought the Egg Dragoon in Sonic Generations in his Base Form. Suffice to say, there's easily an issue with this scaling. This presents us with two options.

1.) Downgrade Werehog Sonic and Egg Dragoon to 5-B. I find there are also flaws in the reasoning when nothing substantiates they are powered by Dark Gaia's full power. Nothing substantiates the percent of the energy they receive, Sonic only gets a portion himself. Additionally, Parallel Landia, at least back when Magolor was 3-A, wasn't 3-A for a similar reason as it didn't harness the full power of the Master Crown. Regarding the Egg Dragoon, it just started it powered by the energy and not that the machine is using the outright channeled Dark Gaia being at its maximum. This becomes more apparent when even Werehog Sonic can thrash it. So nothing would happen aside from a downgrade.

2.) This would upgrade Base Sonic to 5-A. The only problem I see with this is that we would be implying Sonic is on par in the same tier as his Super State. This would require not only Sonic to be upgraded to 5-A, it would require his Super Form to be MSS to Low Multiversal.

I'm currently leaning towards Option 1 though.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Problem with Option 1 is that the gap between Sonic's 5-B and 5-A is less than 2x, and the Werehog wouldn't even need to be twice as strong to breach into 5-A.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Actually, I probably should get around to posting that thread soon. Shake knows what I'm referring to.

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

Super Sonic low end being 5-A is flawed in general but that's for later.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Actually, I probably should get around to posting that thread soon. Shake knows what I'm referring to.

Upgrading base Sonic to 1-A?

 

[Oblivion_Lightning]

^This man knows ovo.

 

[BlastX]

It's actually rather simple


The gap between the Base 5-B+ and the weaker 5-A is 1 or 2x, so minimal and you could assume Base Sonic by Generations is already 5-A, we just don't have a key for it.

Also Super Sonic at his weakest is still over 5 times stronger than the weaker 5-A (and it's an At Least), so even if they are in the same tier the gap is still kinda big (that and 5-A Super is flawed already).

But Shake and Cal are doing something to change it so eh.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Sonic one shot perfect Dark Gaia.

Perfect Dark Gaia > regular Dark Gaia >>> gas form that literally destroyed the planet with the most ease. Why do Supers scale to 5-A again?

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Okay? This doesn't mitigate what I said at all. The Werehog doesn't have a substantiated boost to make it 5-A and the reasons don't even seem to be addressed of which I gave. If anything, the fact both of them fight rather evenly with the Egg Dragoon shouldn't even have it to where we consider the Werehog an entire tier above. They literally have to be the same tier, that's the end of the story.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

When did Super Sonic one shot Perfect Dark Gaia? Chip literally weakened Dark Gaia and Sonic attacked his tentacles and got hurt by multiple of his attacks in that fight. Sounds like someone is leaving out context.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

"1x"

I get you're trying to say to that the gap isn't huge but don't try to say a 1x multiplier, that's flat out mathematically incorrect and would be keep him at 5-B.

Then the rating needs to be adjusted or they need to be downgraded, those are the options we can take from this.

Where does the 5 times come from? Unless there is another Large Planet calc he scales to, the only one I am aware of is the one with Dark Gaia's Awakening.

I would like to know what Cal is even doing that would stop this thread from going through.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Tempest, Chip was struggling against PDG and Super Sonic had to save him. Sonic getting hurt by PDG is game mechanics and Sonic does one shot PDG when he finally gets his hands on him.

https://youtu.be/SpIWm0t2J90

At 25:30.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Why is Sonic getting hurt by Perfect Dark Gaia game mechanics? Are we under the luxury to argue any other time he fights a boss and struggles is game mechanics by this exact same logic?

Also, in the clip you showed, you somehow neglected that I linked Chip fighting Perfect Dark Gaia in the forcefield earlier, Sonic coming in to do multiple swoops on Dark Gaia's hands, Chip literally giving a devastating uppercut, THEN Sonic lands the killing blow. That's not a one shot, especially when Perfect Dark Gaia definitely got weakened from those attacks unless you want to insinuate somehow that Dark Gaia literally staggering with pain and losing its grip is not weakening it.

I find this even less likely for Sonic to scale when Base Sonic literally had to target Dark Gaia's eyeballs just to harm it in Base, which have been explicitly clarified in the past were weakspots and why Sonic was downgraded from 5-A originally in the first place. If both of them are practically comparable to one another, then neither of them should scale to Dark Gaia, it's just that simple.

 

[BlastX]

My bad about the x1 thing

But to make things clear, Dark Gaia scales to it's own 5-A feat (the one splitting the planet apart while super weakened) both Perfect Dark Gaia and Super Sonic scale far above it (while Super Sonic was weakened mind you)

The Werehog doesn't scale to that feat, rather he upscales from Base Sonic given he is stated to be stronger than him, same with the Egg Dragoon Generations Sonic upscales from being stronger than his Unleashed self.

So neither three of them scale to Dark Gaia or Super Sonic, they are in the same tier but are way weaker than them.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Okay? This doesn't mitigate what I said at all. The Werehog doesn't have a substantiated boost to make it 5-A and the reasons don't even seem to be addressed of which I gave. If anything, the fact both of them fight rather evenly with the Egg Dragoon shouldn't even have it to where we consider the Werehog an entire tier above. They literally have to be the same tier, that's the end of the story.

Absorbing even a fraction of Dark Gaia's essence, which he did indeed do, pushes him into 5-A when you realize Werehog Sonic had enough energy to make Dark Gaia transform into his Perfect state.

You mean Sonic? Sonic, who is consistently stated to grow stronger throughout multiple installments? The Sonic from Generations beating the Egg Dragoon? The same one who defeated Perfect Chaos, another 5-A being?

Okay sorry for the snark. The point is that being an "entire tier" above doesn't mean much when Base Sonic can be put up against baseline 5-As and win due to the lack of a huge AP gap.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

Yes, I know Dark Gaia is 5-A via that feat. That's literally what the profiles try to scale them to. Look at Egg Dragoo and Sonic's profiles for yourself.

>"Charged with Dark Gaia's energy and fought Modern Base and Werehog Sonic"

>"Absorbed a large portion of Dark Gaia's energy, enough to make it transform into its Perfect form once Dark Gaia regained it, and is vastly stronger than his base form. Defeated the Egg Dragoo."

We already addressed why having Dark Gaia's energy doesn't equate being in the exact same tier as it. That is fundamentally flawed unless those values of which Dark Gaia's awakening percent of power and the amount the Werehog has are quantifiable. There is no quantifiable measures though so we can't assume that's an automatic tier hop, that is baseless and the definition of a headcanon.

Being stronger than a 5-B doesn't get you 5-A. Even if a 2x multiplier would breach into 5-A, you literally cannot quantify how much more powerful the Werehog would be. This, again, is another massively unsubstantiated assumption. Unless you can give a multiplier once again, we cannot assume this as being 5-A reasoning.

I'm not saying Base Sonic scales to Super Sonic. What I said was it made little to no practical sense for a form that's considered Sonic's practical ultimate form, even at its weakest, to be in the same league and not be too far above his Base or Werehog Forms.

 

[ShakeResounding]

That's why plans to remove 5-A are being made as we speak. It's been being planned for a while now. It males no sense for a Base character to be anywhere near the power of a Super form.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

You should also realize Sonic got dosed up on some of the energy at that very beginning of the game, as in when Dark Gaia awakened it happened. If you make him 5-A off of that, you're implying the energy is either equal to or greater than what Dark Gaia generated upon awakening and doing that feat which is literally paradoxical if he only took some of that energy when some most definitely does not mean you're greater than your source, unless you think 25% > 100%. At this point, it's literally just deductive reasoning that Dark Gaia was missing a very miniscule portion of power to make its Perfect Form. All I'm getting here is that Dark Gaia needed some of the energy it initially lost to get to its perfect form, not that the Werehog contributed a significant portion like you've been making it out to be.

Yeah, that snark was incredibly unnecessary but whatever. Okay, growing stronger doesn't mean he has a quantifiable tier jump. It's supporting evidence to explain if it happens but it doesn't mean we can imply ridiculous things and just say "Well Sonic grows in power so it makes sense". If we followed that logic, we might as well say Sonic is Multi-Solar System in Base by trying to scale off of Ultimate Emerl (who just so coincidentally also has the exact same case just kind of in reverse who absorbed some energy from an MSS attack but was denied of being 4-A and was just At least High 6-A when his key was still around) and justify it as "well Sonic gets more powerful so it makes sense". That point is only as valid as the main assertion.

Okay? Sonic defeating Perfect Chaos was going more into weak spot exploitation territory if we're applying genuine context to Generations but we won't go into that unless we have to. There doesn't even seem to be refutations with most of the points I listed either aside from a few.

 

[Inverted_Tempest]

From what's been shown, there seems to be more reason for him not being 5-A if that's the case. Also, please for the future sake of this thread, legit just reply to comments where I respond directly at you. I had this exact same issue with ShadowWarrior where he didn't understand I was replying on a Bill thread to someone else and he'd act as if every comment was directed at him. It literally just makes the discussion easier so much easier to do.