Probability Spaces

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

1. What hax are granted from creating/manipulating a probability space? (I know it'd be probability hax, but would it also be mathematics manipulation?)

2. Does a probability space that also acts as an entire physical universe have any inherent properties that'd change its tier, or would it just be low 2-C?

 

[ImmortalDread]

1. probability manipulation (and possibly causality manipulation)
2. No, I don't think it is equivalent to space-time continuum, and to simplify (as possible as I can), it models random experiments or uncertain events.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

2. No, I don't think it is equivalent to space-time continuum, and to simplify (as possible as I can), it models random experiments or uncertain events.

I know it isn't.

However, in this circumstance, the probability space is a space-time continuum, as impossible as that is IRL. I know it's a mathematical model, but this verse treats it as an entire world.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I know it isn't.

However, in this circumstance, the probability space is a space-time continuum, as impossible as that is IRL. I know it's a mathematical model, but this verse treats it as an entire world.

May I see a quote from wiki that states that? Because the three mentioned elements don't state that.

Edit: Nvm, if fictional franchise treat as such, then ya. I am only commenting if solely “probability space” grants that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Edit: Nvm, if fictional franchise treat as such, then ya. I am only commenting if solely “probability space” grants that.

What are you even saying yes to here?

 

[ImmortalDread]

What are you even saying yes to here?

but this verse treats it as an entire world.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

That wasn't even a question though?? I'm asking if a probability space world, like the one you agree can exist in fiction, would be tiered any higher than low 2-C or have any special properties.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Fuji, calm down for a second.

I said, that a probability space by default is not a space-time continuum (at least I don't see it from the wiki page, if I missed it, please quote it for me) and later you mentioned the verse treat it as such.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Fuji, calm down for a second.

I said, that a probability space by default is not a space-time continuum (at least I don't see it from the wiki page, if I missed it, please quote it for me) and later you mentioned the verse treat it as such.

I know.

Do you have an answer to the original question ('would this hypothetical universe be above low 2-C?') or do you not?

 

[ImmortalDread]

It is not.

I don't see anywhere in wiki page that this space (probability space) has any properties for space-time continuum or is equivalent to one (if we exclude the verse mechanics you mentioned)

But if the verse (as you previously said) added a new element to those three main ones that is equivalent to a whole space-time continuum structure (“World”) then sure.

Altho, I take that the “entire world” itself is space-time continuum which is proven within the context, I don't think “entire world” would grant the tier without any context. It would be 3-A or unknown instead.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't see anywhere in wiki page that this space (probability space) has any properties for space-time continuum or is equivalent to one (if we exclude the verse mechanics you mentioned)

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/739910578960728094/789388146953158656/unknown.png
is it really this hard for you to admit that you don't know the answer

 

[ImmortalDread]

I presented you with two answers:

• One that disregards verse mechanics
• And another that incorporates it.

Where is the confusion? The one you seek is contained within the last two paragraphs, while the first one was an additional contribution from me.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I presented you with two answers:

• One that disregards verse mechanics
• And another that incorporates it.

Where is the confusion? The one you seek is contained within the last two paragraphs, while the first one was an additional contribution from me.

Okay, let me rephrase, because I did ask if this universe would be above low 2-C and you said Yes. I wanted a bit more elaboration.

What tier would this hypothetical universe be?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Before I answer, when you say “this hypothetical universe" you are referring to

• A verse that treats this probability space as an entire world

Yes?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Before I answer, when you say “this hypothetical universe" you are referring to

• A verse that treats this probability space as an entire world

Yes?

Yes, a probability space that is, or is at least part of, a universal space-time continuum.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I have a feeling this is for Touhou. I think it really just depends. Can they manipulate the probability within the space as well or are they just manipulating the "space" aspect? Looks like spatial manip + probability manipulation regardless though. Can they BFR people to this realm as well? Since probability is inherently mathematical it'd be redundant for mathematical manip.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yes, a probability space that is, or is at least part of, a universal space-time continuum.

Alright, yes it will be tiered as low 2-C

 

[ImmortalDread]

Can they manipulate the probability within the space as well or are they just manipulating the "space" aspect?

The “space” aspect in probability space is nowhere “spatial”. So, I am not sure from where you got “spatial manipulation” unless the verse clarifies that which is other topic.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I have a feeling this is for Touhou. I think it really just depends. Can they manipulate the probability within the space as well or are they just manipulating the "space" aspect? Looks like spatial manip + probability manipulation regardless though. Can they BFR people to this realm as well? Since probability is inherently mathematical it'd be redundant for mathematical manip.

Nah it just kind of exists, but people can nuke the dimension it's a part of.

Alright, yes it will be tiered as low 2-C

Thanks.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Furthermore, I failed to notice the initial segment of your OP regarding mathematical manipulation. From what I perceive, there seems to be no mathematical manipulation involved; instead, it appears to be a mathematical model centered around causality, where all conceivable outcomes can be manipulated, leading to probabilities being the key focus.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Furthermore, I failed to notice the initial segment of your original post regarding mathematical manipulation. From what I perceive, there seems to be no mathematical manipulation involved; instead, it appears to be a mathematical model centered around causality, where all conceivable outcomes can be manipulated, leading to probabilities being the key focus.

You just answered your own question dread.

 

[ImmortalDread]

No, I did not.

Mathematical model is simply a formal representation of a system or a concept. And a probability space is actually a “mathematical construct” which means there is no “physical construct” for the concept, since it is simply an idea.

The only way you can grant a mathematical manipulation in this context

• if you directly alter a mathematical value which is equivalent to the third element in our instance
• Or if you changed the mathematical rules inside this probability space (if the verse still follows the logic behind it)

You only mentioned “manipulating probability space”, and it depends on the mechanics of the said manipulation. This is a bit vague to determinate.
If it is both "creating and manipulating", it would lead that to the conclusion that the person created the entire world which is an AP feat.

Also, ; let's be simple, can you describe what exactly is he manipulating in the context?

As far as I can see, the verse only treats it as an “entire world” which is a space-time continuum if the conditions are met and thus only low 2-C AP feat.

 

[Georredannea15]

I know.

Do you have an answer to the original question ('would this hypothetical universe be above low 2-C?') or do you not?

It is not.

I don't see anywhere in wiki page that this space (probability space) has any properties for space-time continuum or is equivalent to one (if we exclude the verse mechanics you mentioned)

But if the verse (as you previously said) added a new element to those three main ones that is equivalent to a whole space-time continuum structure (“World”) then sure.

Altho, I take that the “entire world” itself is space-time continuum which is proven within the context, I don't think “entire world” would grant the tier without any context. It would be 3-A or unknown instead.

Doesn't this mean that there must be a time continuum for one or more possibilities to be realised? After all, probability exists in a time/timeline(whatever) and in the plot. In this case, wouldn't what we call "probability space" be Low 2-C?

The question is a bit complicated and that's what I understand. Sorry if I misunderstood or missed something

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

What hax are granted from creating/manipulating a probability space?

Probability Manipulation and Mathematics Manipulation

Does a probability space that also acts as an entire physical universe have any inherent properties that'd change its tier, or would it just be low 2-C?

I don't see how a probability space can exist as an entire physical universe, fiction is fiction so it should be high 3-A idk about low 2-C. It depends on how many sample spaces serve as basis for the probability space.

However, in this circumstance, the probability space is a space-time continuum, as impossible as that is IRL. I know it's a mathematical model, but this verse treats it as an entire world.

If the sample space is physical then it should scale. It usually would be an abstract space serving as a basis to model possible outcomes and hence wouldn't scale but if it's physical it does suffice the same properties that an Euclidean vector space would have and/or spaces of real coordinate space.

So it should scale the same way depending on how it's posited.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Doesn't this mean that there must be a time continuum for one or more possibilities to be realised? After all, probability exists in a time/timeline(whatever) and in the plot. In this case, wouldn't what we call "probability space" be Low 2-C?

The question is a bit complicated and that's what I understand. Sorry if I misunderstood or missed something

I forget to answer;

No, it is not a rule if we follow the irl logic.

 

[Georredannea15]

I forget to answer;

no problem

No, it is not a rule if we follow the irl logic.

Sure, but I still think that a space with probability in it must still be time, but IDK

 

[ImmortalDread]

If you are referring to MWI, this is different.

 

[Georredannea15]

If you are referring to MWI, this is different.

No, I'm not referring to MWI.

 

[ImmortalDread]

What exactly are you referring? Since the only impression I got here is MWI which is "the realization of possibilities" whereas you mentioned, each possible outcome occurs in a separate independent reality. Which is a distinct concept of what we are discussing.

This one is simply to describe and analyze uncertain events or outcomes.

 

[Georredannea15]

What exactly are you referring? Since the only impression I got here is MWI which is "the realization of possibilities" whereas you mentioned, each possible outcome occurs in a separate independent reality. Which is a distinct concept of what we are discussing.

This one is simply to describe and analyze uncertain events or outcomes.

I mean, wouldn't a place where a possibility exists and is experienced also have time? So we must have a time for these possibilities to exist and be experienced. That's what I think. That would make that space Low 2-C. (Assuming that's the case)

 

[ImmortalDread]

No, it does not and not sure why your thinking is complicated.

A probability space does not require it. There are three elements and it is not listed as requirement.

 

[Georredannea15]

No, it does not and not sure why your thinking is complicated.

A probability space does not require it. There are three elements and it is not listed as requirement.

Hmmm... It could be.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

no problem

Sure, but I still think that a space with probability in it must still be time, but IDK

Probability doesn't require time to be actualized, because change is not equivalent to time and can happen independent of temporality.

Likewise probable outcomes being actualized doesn't necessitate the existence of time.

 

[Georredannea15]

Probability doesn't require time to be actualized, because change is not equivalent to time and can happen independent of temporality.

Likewise probable outcomes being actualized doesn't necessitate the existence of time.

Sounds a bit ridiculous, actually.

This possibility requires a plot and time, but authors can do it without thinking of it that way. If we think of it that way, yeah, I guess we can't assume. But IDK

 

[ImmortalDread]

“This possibility..ect”

Can you prove this? We can't just create new rulesets to fit our limited understanding, because we don't accept it.

Altho all this thinking is already meaningless since the author simply equated the entire probability space as “world”, so I have the feeling he simply used the word as fancy for it.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Sounds a bit ridiculous, actually.

This possibility requires a plot and time, but authors can do it without thinking of it that way. If we think of it that way, yeah, I guess we can't assume. But IDK

Time being required for change is a nomological necessity not a logical necessity, nomological necessities aren't necessarily necessary facts but are regarded as facts but can be dismiss as facts after a new scientific discovery is made.

Forms in the theory of forms can be changed despite being unchangeable and atemporal, this can only be a complied by a deity in Plato's views God.

If we wanna get technical, time is not eternal since that implies eternalism holds, by extension implying determinism holds as well. However quantum mechanics makes it clear and demonstrates if anything the universe is more probabilistic than deterministic, even if was potential infinity which doesn't imply eternalism it has a beginning.

If time is caused and not uncaused then it had a beginning, which changed time from not existing to existing which implies again change can happen independent of temporality.

I'm confused on the plot point, there are fictional characters beyond and can still cause change and atemporal fiction characters who can be changed and cause change themselves so.

 

[Georredannea15]

Time being required for change is a nomological necessity not a logical necessity, nomological necessities aren't necessarily necessary facts but are regarded as facts but can be dismiss as facts after a new scientific discovery is made.

Forms in the theory of forms can be changed despite being unchangeable and atemporal, this can only be a complied by a deity in Plato's views God.

If we wanna get technical, time is not eternal since that implies eternalism holds, by extension implying determinism holds as well. However quantum mechanics makes it clear and demonstrates if anything the universe is more probabilistic than deterministic, even if was potential infinity which doesn't imply eternalism it has a beginning.

If time is caused and not uncaused then it had a beginning, which changed time from not existing to existing which implies again change can happen independent of temporality.

I'm confused on the plot point, there are fictional characters beyond and can still cause change and atemporal fiction characters who can be changed and cause change themselves so.

Quantum mechanics would be irrelevant here, actually...

Anyway.

My point here is that for the possibility, a living and progressing plot, that is, a continuous story, is necessary. And for this, a linear time is required. And there is a continuity of time in a verse that is usually a manipulation of probability.

But the reason we don't directly assume this is because the authors didn't always do it with this thing.(Well, i guess)

I don't know what the theory of form is doing here. This philosophical thought of Plato is based on the idea that only non-physical forms represent the truest reality. In other words, it is a mentality that paves the way for metaphysics to some extent. But it has nothing to do with probability.

... Or I'm missing something.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Quantum mechanics is never irrelevant in these topics. Specifically for probability spaces. In fact, probability theory is a fundamental mathematical framework used to describe and understand certain aspects of quantum mechanics.

 

[Georredannea15]

Quantum mechanics is never irrelevant in these topics. Specifically for probability spaces. In fact, probability theory is a fundamental mathematical framework used to describe and understand certain aspects of quantum mechanics.

Quantum mechanics is usually relevant in MWI, but I'm not talking about MWI.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You are talking about probability space. Please, for God's sake, read what this Wikipedia indicates. I am very well of what I am talking here.
In matter of fact; MWI is very much your interpretation in the entire discussion subconsciously.