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Prime Soul King Profile Additions

I want to know why bleach novel is used for sk destroying planet sized hollow, but vsbattle does not use Boruto novel for Momoshiki collapsing a Star, and countless planets.

Because the Bleach Novel is canon as far as I'm concerned while with the Naruto one I have no idea
 
I want to know why bleach novel is used for sk destroying planet sized hollow, but vsbattle does not use Boruto novel for Momoshiki collapsing a Star, and countless planets.

Because Momoshiki did that feat with various God trees, so it isn't his feat alone. Go make a thread for Naruto this isn't the place to talk about that.
 
My position on the OP remains the same. Pretty much everything, good. The Schrifts, bad.

Maybe people can just list what they agree and disagree with so we can see what the general consensus is first. We can get back to the ad nauseum after that.
 
Does Yukio's skill as a hacker actually come from his Fullbring?
 
Damage3245 said:
Does Yukio's skill as a hacker actually come from his Fullbring?
Click to expand...
Read his backstory, he learned from the Internet because his parents didn't pay attention to him, so he made them go bankrupt and ran away.
 
AppleLord said:
Read his backstory, he learned from the Internet because his parents didn't pay attention to him, so he made them go bankrupt and ran away.
Click to expand...
Okay, so it's not part of his Fullbring? I'm asking because it is listed in the abilities at the top for the Fullbring section.
 
First: updated the OP to give the Soul King Reality Warping for fundamentally altering reality on a multi-dimensional scale with just his own power (the genesis of the three worlds of Bleach), as well as Physics Manipulation due to Urahara outright saying that Fullbring has been used to alter the laws of physics.

Second:

Where We Stand

Schrifts

  • The argument to oppose Schrifts is that Yhwach himself had to learn how to create powers, and that he cannot 'create' or 'bestow' them to himself thus they should not apply
  • The above argument is denied on two fronts by my view: The Prime Soul King saw every future all the way until the end of Bleach, so would see Yhwach performing the feat of cultivating his inferior Almighty, and Yhwach objectively bestowed himself a Schrift at least once in Bleach (The Voice scan as presented by IMadeThis).
  • As a result, Schrifts ought to be included in the profile since they're a subset of an ability The Almighty grants
Fullbring

  • The argument to oppose Fullbring is claiming that the affinity with an object is what is necessary to create the Fullbring, thereby nullifying the Prime Soul King's ability to possess them
  • This argument is wrong due to the simple fact that it is outright stated several times in the novels that the shard and solely the shard of the Soul King is what enables a Fullbringer to have any powers whatsoever, thus everything performed by Fullbringers is an extension of a fragment of the Soul King's body's power; an argument would need to exist proving Fullbringers have latent power that can meaningfully alter the power granted to them somehow. The 'attachment' created is an extension of the base Soul Manipulation power Fullbringers possess, and nothing more, therefore belonging to the Soul King
Obviously I am bringing a biased point of view since I vehemently disagree with the above opposition to both Fullbring and Schrifts being removed from the future profile, but I'm still representing the arguments faithfully.
 
Damage3245 said:
Okay, so it's not part of his Fullbring? I'm asking because it is listed in the abilities at the top for the Fullbring section.
Click to expand...
That one belonged in the 'Future Sight' category, actually. But realistically it's super redundant and I'll remove it now
 
> Yhwach objectively bestowed himself a Schrift at least once in Bleach (The Voice scan as presented by IMadeThis).

I wouldn't say objectively since it is never specifically clarified, referenced again or officially confirmed. It is an interpretation that the word voice being highlighted that way means it is a Schrift. Schrifts are also consistently written with a 'The ' in front of them from what I recall. 'The Almighty', 'The Balance', etc. Yhwach's "voice" is not.

> The Prime Soul King saw every future all the way until the end of Bleach, so would see Yhwach performing the feat of cultivating his inferior Almighty

Even if he did, that doesn't mean that the Soul King did bestow those abilities to himself. You're talking about something that the Soul King could hypothetically do and trying to apply all of those abilities to him as if he did do it, or he would do it.

It's impossible to say that it is in-character for the Soul King to look into the future, steal the idea for abilities, and then grant them to himself.
 
For one: the scan presents it the same way it does every other Schrift in Bleach, per IMade's word and translation. Even typing it into google translate gives similar results. I am inclined, therefore, to go with his interpretation.

For two: it is an addition to his profile of abilities he has access to, the precise same as Yhwach's profile. I fail to see the relevance honestly, when it's a reality warper who can presumably just do everything in the profile with his The Almighty and near-omnipotence regardless, but for accuracy's sake I want to include them. I beleive you and I can see eye-to-eye in that regard, hopefully?

>It's impossible to say that it is in-character for the Soul King to look into the future, steal the idea for abilities, and then grant them to himself.

Good thing I'm merely asserting it to provably be within his power, then, and don't have to argue in-character for a characterless deity (couldn't resist the chance for some sarcasm here)
 
> I beleive you and I can see eye-to-eye in that regard, hopefully?

I do agree in accuracy being the most important thing. But I also think that too much of this is speculative.

> Yhwach demonstrably has the power of every Sternritter Schrift on his profile

This bit still is wrong.

If it were accurate then Yhwach would have access to a passive spatial manipulation field around him that would redirect attacks from himself that he recognizes as coming from an enemy.

Yhwach has shown the ability to bestow abilities, that much is undeniably true. But him having free use of all Schrifts (before or after he bestows them) has always been extremely lacking in practical evidence.

I know which page is used to support the idea that Yhwach can use every single Schrift freely, but at best it merely implies it. It is not solid proof by itself.
 
That just means he has to activate them, the only evidence missing is him using them 1 by 1 by for you to accept it without doubt. By all statements and implications Yhwach has those abilities.
 
Hmm, well it is within his power, provably, and perhaps we can just put 'Likely' for all the Schrifts then, yes?

Although apparently, as Sigurd brings, there's apparently evidence for him having Gremmy's The Visionary at least; Hikone in the recent novel is created from Gremmy's power, and a being attempting to absorb all Soul King Fragments from Hikone claims (Ikomikidomoe, Hikone's shikai) its intent to absorb said Fragments right before going straight for Hikone's head.

Would a 'Likely' or 'Can bestow to self' key be acceptable for Schrifts, in light of all evidence?

And I must say I agree with Sigurd; all evidence does point to even Yhwach having absorbed all those powers and he created them, as well as being able to bestow them to himself
 
@Sigurd; I don't need to see him using them 1 by 1. But activating even a single one of them (aside from the debatable voice example) would be good.

A Possibly would be better for the Schrifts tbh - if it really does have to be accepted.
 
It's likely Kubo forgot about it or just ignored it, look at how he wrote Gremmy to be defeated. Kubo writes these unbeatable characters and give them ridiculous defeats. Even the damn Soul King let himself get fked for some reason unknown to us.

  • Yhwach never seeing his defeat by the arrow.
  • People randomly knowing stillsilver is his weakness, how in the world would they know this?
  • KS being placed on him to setup his defeat.
  • Yhwach ignoring the vision of his defeat because he though Jugram was giving him a joyful nightmare -.-.
 
Kubo is inconsistent, but at least a few of those can be dismissed imho Sigurd:

Plot arrow: Okay yeah Kubo just ****** up here and there is not even a good estimation of why it occured.

Stillsilver awareness: Ryuken is a good surgeon and......there's no real reason he should know about it, thanks Kubo.

KS: Okay this one is legitimate, Aizen activated it and somehow KS is so strong it can affect Precognition

Defeat: Apparently Yhwach gets off on nightmares?
 
@Damage

If all evidence points to their being accessible by a reality-warping god of the universe, I don't see what's so unlikely about inclusion of them under a 'Likely' key. As stated, a lot of the abilities are redundant regardless, and can be emulated with his powers anyway.
 
Go with the Possibly option. He is stated to have innumerable abilities like Fullbringers and he has The A as well so there is certainly an argument to be made, we just can't say for certain.
 
Possibly on all Schrifts, everything else is good to go then.

Any objections? I will absolutely let Damage speak his mind further since he seems to be the biggest opponent to the very idea of Schrifts, and I get the notion he wants them off of Yhwach's profile too based on this entire convo
 
He does, there was a crt a couple months ago that got them on the profile. Pretty much everything about it was discussed already on wether he has the powers or not.
 
If there's precedence for it I have no clue why it should change in this current moment?
 
On a separate point to the Schrifts, for the Fullbringer's unique abilities this is a summary of what they have from the Bleach wiki (Note that I'm not stating that the wiki is an objective source of fact, just that they provide a handy summary):

> Object Affinity: By developing an affinity for a particular object, a Fullbringer can alter its form, granting powers that vary greatly among individuals. This affinity can be defined by one's love for the object in question, or simply by an overall fondness for it.

For the Soul King to have the exact same abilities as them / use their abilities in the exact same way as they do, it seems to me that he would need to have the same affinity for particular objects unless it is stated somewhere that unique Fullbringer abilities can be used without the affinity for objects.

Since the Soul King has no known affinity for these particular objects, he should not have those listed Fullbringer abilities as being definitely confirmed on his profile.
 
This likely doesn't matter, Soul King himself is a fullbringer but he has no sort of object to channel his abilities that we know of. It's likely just a way that the new fullbringer's use to channel said power.

Soul King likely has these abilities at a base level, but the way he uses them is unknown since not much is known about him.
 
The Bleach Wiki outright dismisses the novels and doesn't accept them as canon and therefore doesn't even believe their powers come from the Soul King shards, for what it's worth Damage. So I will handwave any objection based in the wiki and not engage it, no offense to you for utilizing an orindarily well-sourced resource for your argument.

That having been said: the 'object affinity' is soul manipulation of an object such that the latent power of the shard may materialize through the item, utilizing it as a 'focus', if you will.

Further, even if we accept the object affinity as necessary to develop unique powers which somehow are unrelated to the shard, even though the shard itself is what is creating these powers for a fact: the Soul King would see this in the future and know the destiny of each of his fragments, and be able to manipulate it, so it would, at the very minimum, be a 'Likely'.
 
@Xulrev; the source being from the Bleach wiki is mostly irrelevant to my point. It is just summarizing what is already told to us in the manga itself.

So saying the objection is based on the wiki is wrong. It is based on the manga, which the wiki references.
 
I did indeed engage your actual base point, damage, so I've no clue why you responded to the last significant point of my response truthfully.
 
Body Parts

I'm absolutely fine with giving him the powers of, well his ow left and right hands, especially since it is very explicitly stated that the power they display is intrinsic to their being since it is the arms themselves using that power.

In support of giving him a likely for The Visionary, though I feel the need to point out that if that ability was tied to the brain, then Hikone should have been able to display such an ability. The fact that he did not is an implication against. However, in the end I am willing to give this one the benefit of the doubt.

Now, in support of providing the basin reactive evolution and regen from The Miracle, but I will disagree with giving him anything more than a possibly for any additions that may, or may not have been developed by Gerard himself.

Schrifts

For now, I disagree heavily on giving the PSK schrifts, mostly because I don't believe that The Almighty is capable of creating anything at all (this might need its own thread...). I argue that Yhwach has only ever taken something already in existance, and about his fight with Ichibe, why does he say "once more ", if it is something he created.

There are also doubts about whether The Almighty can give him powers from the future, since if he could do that what is the point of his whole 'give and take' gimmick?

Fullbring

>The argument to oppose Fullbring is claiming that the affinity with an object is what is necessary to create the Fullbring, thereby nullifying the Prime Soul King's ability to possess them

I posed that as a response to this from IMade:

>Yes, exactly what I mean, the basic functions of Fullbringers is the ability to manipulate the souls of objects and they can put steroids on this with their desired object.

Because the only way this is relevant is if the power is coming from the object itself. Not that I believe this to be the truth.

>This argument is wrong due to the simple fact that it is outright stated several times in the novels that the shard and solely the shard of the Soul King is what enables a Fullbringer to have any powers whatsoever, thus everything performed by Fullbringers is an extension of a fragment of the Soul King's body's power; an argument would need to exist proving Fullbringers have latent power that can meaningfully alter the power granted to them somehow. The 'attachment' created is an extension of the base Soul Manipulation power Fullbringers possess, and nothing more, therefore belonging to the Soul King

This is explicitly untrue, what is correct is that it is outright stated several times in the novels that the shard of the SK is what turns them into Fullbringers. It is never stated that every Fullbring is provided by the shards themselves.

You are equalizing a change in characteristics to the abilities developed as a result of said change in characteristics. This is a fallacy.

If you(shard) somehow change a snake(regular human) into a bird(Fullbringer), you will give it the ability to fly, but the way(Fullbring) it flies is up to the bird(Fullbinger) not you(shard).

Sorry for the monster post
 
@Xulrev; I just wanted to clear any potential confusion that I was relying solely on a fan wiki to justify my arguments. The purpose of referencing the wiki is simply to borrow their summary of what is stated in the manga.
 
@Link

On Fullbring:

>To the Fullbringers themselves, just as the very concept defied logic, its significance was also incomprehensible; 'power' was bestowed to them from a reality which they had no say i

>to go into specifics, the unique inherent ability that is born by distorting the nature of an object they hold a particular attachment to through the power of Fullbring, that is surely something given by gods —— or perhaps it can even be described as the stuff of the gods in itself; rather than being an exaggerated notion, one might be able to say it partially rearranges the foundation on which the 'world's mode of existence' is built.

It's a unique, INHERENT ability, which manifests by manipulating an object. The ability in reliant on the shard's power. Nowhere does anybody in all of Bleach gain a power out of thin air. The ability belongs to the shard, and the Fullbringer manifests it. IMade also rebutted this point after you made it, with similar rationale. You would have to provide proof that Fullbringers can somehow create a power from nothing, which is a bit bizarre, to counteract the claim I have given for the SK having these abilities.
 
The first one is almost certainly referring to them becoming Fullbringers, not the Fullbring itself

The second holds a bit more weight, yes, though it reeks of flowery language, and again, could be referring to the fact that the shard is what allows them to do so. This singular statement is not enough to counteract the statements of other's like the words of Urahara I posted before.

That being said, that quotes does push me a little closer to being neutral on the topic, but I would like a response to a previous point:

Giriko just so happened to have bonded with a clock

Jackie just so happened to have a back story about keeping her boots shiny

Yukio just so happened to want to immerse himself entirely into his 'virtual reality'
 
Having your power seek out an attachment to something it has an affinity with is not so unusual, and all Fulllbringers equally just so happe to lead tragic lives that lead to their attachment with their specific object.

The shards are stated to act like a Hogyoku of sorts, leading them to their power. I do not believe it to be unrealistic to point out how the 'coincidence' of attaching to their specific item for their specific power is reasonable.
 
I find it to be more reasonable to assume that it is, in fact, the Fullbringer's feelings and perpective on the object in question that guides the path their Fullbrings take, and this fact that this fits with the whole 'manifest their desires' theme is more support for this argument.
 
Well here's the quote:

>Although it was not clear what kind of influence this fragment of the Rei-o would have; Ginjo had assumed that just like Mimihagi-sama had taken possession of a Shinigami; if this fragment were to be fused with human beings, then it would bring about an effect similar to that of the Hogyoku. A device that manifests the desires of those around it; something that could change the world. The Hogyoku. It would not be surprising if the fragment of the Rei-o acts as its substitute and activates Fullbring that can turn attachment into an ability.

So taking it all together:

1. The Shard is the progenitor of all Fullbringer's powers

2. The Shard acts as a subtitute Hogyoku of sorts, which leads them to their object of attachment

3. The Shard is outright stated to activate Fullbring and turn that object of attachment into a power of reality

In short, the Shard is a pseudo-reality manipulation device that creates the power the specific 'bringer manifests when they find their object of attachment, which the Shard itself helps guide them to in my opinion.

This theory fits with how every. single. Fullbringer. ever. just so happens to have a tragic life fraught with grief and death that just so happens to lead them to the perfect object for their power.
 
1. The Shard is the progenator of all of a Fullbringer's basic abilities.

2. The Shard acts as a subtitute Hogyoku of sorts

Absolutely

which leads them to their object of attachment.

Not what it said

3. The Shard lets them activate Fullbring,

OK

and turn that object of attachment into a power of reality

No, "turn attachment into an ability". it is the attachment itself, meaning it manifests the Fullbringer's attachment, what they feel about the object, that gets turned into a power.

I bring you back to my fallacy point, just because the Shard helps the Fullbringer activate their own ability does not mean the ability activated is innherent to the Shard itself.

>This theory fits with how every. single. Fullbringer. ever. just so happens to have a tragic life fraught with grief and death that just so happens to lead them to the perfect object for their power.

Giriko's watch is a famiy heirloom

Jackie's boots were given to her

Yukio could fit though, I give you that.
 
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