Prime Hiruzen Upscale (My Grandpa's Deck has no Pathetic Cards)

[Apollonir.Scale]

I finally started writing the Hiruzen CRT that I have been thinking about for a long time.

Hiruzen>Konohamaru

Konohamaru sees himself as weaker than Hiruzen. He states that he has not yet surpassed him.

Low 5-B Scaling

Konohamaru says Jugo is more dangerous than anything we've ever encountered. Jugo uses the curse mark on top of that. I know that Curse Mark 10x multip is accepted in this wiki. Correct me if I'm wrong. The main Jugo Team 7's biggest threat should be stronger than Lord Ku, and Lord Ku scales Kurotsuchi. There is a fact in the story that says "Character X's jutsu-using version>Character X's jutsu-not-using version." Kurotsuchi didn't use jutsu when hitting Kinshiki. He used jutsu when hitting Lord Ku. Ku fight Kurotsuchi>Kinshiki fight Kurotsuchi. It wouldn't be ridiculous for Konohamaru to be Low 5-B because in Boruto TBV he has a rasengan that tanks Hidari's Low 5-B AP attack. Also, Kashin Koji says you're a tough opponent for Konohamaru and clashes with Konohamaru's rasengans with equal power. In short, Low 5-B and FTL+ Konohamaru don't seem ridiculous to me. We were joking about Prime Hiruzen, 5-C, but he turned out to be Low 5-B...

Konohamaru is fast enough to fight Kashin Koji. He is fast enough to fight Jugo, who is a bigger threat than Lord Ku, who is the scale of Kurotsuchi. So he should go FTL+. Indirectly Jugo, Hiruzen, Minato, Tobirama, Hashirama, Gai, Madara, Obito, Kaguya and many more characters.

Hiruzen's attitude towards using his power

Hiruzen wears the Hokage Cloak when in the village. Delta became stronger when he took off his cloak. This shows that taking off clothes like cloaks in the series means getting serious. Considering that Hiruzen always wears the Hokage Cloak while walking around the village and only uses his chakra when fighting, it means that Hiruzen is not at 100% power in the village. Because characters cannot be at maximum power level without using chakra and Hiruzen also wears a cloak. There may be those who say that the cloak thing is only for Delta. Hiruzen takes off his Hokage Cloak when he is going to fight against Orochimaru. In other words, not only Delta but also Hiruzen takes off his cloak to show that he is serious. Since there will be no war in the village, no one in the village has seen his full power. In other words, considering that Dan and other shinobi have not seen a cloakless Hiruzen in battle, no one knows Prime Hiruzen.

If anyone knows about Hiruzen's prime state, Danzo, Koharu and Homura know. In the Databook, it is stated that the villagers see Hiruzen as the strongest Hokage. We can say that there are people like Homura and Koharu among the villagers. After all, these two characters are no longer shinobi and they saw characters like Hashirama, Hiruzen, Tobirama when they were shinobi.

I don't think Prime will upgrade Hiruzen, Tobirama, and Hashirama. Considering that Hiruzen got weaker as he got older, Orochimaru Prime cannot scale with Hiruzen.

 

[Damage3245]

Konohamaru sees himself as weaker than Hiruzen. He states that he has not yet surpassed him.

That statement by itself could mean a lot of things without further context.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

That statement by itself could mean a lot of things without further context.

He talks about strength. He talked about training later in the conversation. Characters train to get stronger. But you're right, I should have added the rest of the conversation.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Disagree because this means Hiruzen>Itachi and as a die hard Itachi meat rider I cannot allow that to pass

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Disagree because this means Hiruzen>Itachi and as a die hard Itachi meat rider I cannot allow that to pass

Normally Hiruzen>Itachi

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Normally Hiruzen>Itachi

2/10 rage bait

 

[Testarossa002]

Fun and Games?
Where do i start?

Konohamaru sees himself as weaker than Hiruzen. He states that he has not yet surpassed him.

Konohamaru himself never saw hiruzen's prime. I'd argue he never even saw hiruzen fight at all and simply basing his assertion on hearsay.

Konohamaru says Jugo is more dangerous than anything we've ever encountered.

Konohamaru never met Ku afaik and as such, doesn't have the knowledge of include Ku in this statement. Also, "we" means as a team.

Konohamaru sees himself as weaker than Hiruzen. He states that he has not yet surpassed him.

you really should post the full scan for this btw

There is a fact in the story that says "Character X's jutsu-using version>Character X's jutsu-not-using version." Kurotsuchi didn't use jutsu when hitting Kinshiki. He used jutsu when hitting Lord Ku. Ku fight Kurotsuchi>Kinshiki fight Kurotsuchi

Nuh uh, Kurotsuchi only scales to kinshiki with her lava jutsu. She pushed back an unaware kinshiki.

If anyone knows about Hiruzen's prime state, Danzo, Koharu and Homura know. In the Databook, it is stated that the villagers see Hiruzen as the strongest Hokage. We can say that there are people like Homura and Koharu among the villagers. After all, these two characters are no longer shinobi and they saw characters like Hashirama, Hiruzen, Tobirama when they were shinobi.

This right here contradicts your first point. They've seen hiruzen's power. Konohamaru hasn't.

In conclusion, I disagree heavily with the thread's premise

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Konohamaru himself never saw hiruzen's prime. I'd argue he never even saw hiruzen fight at all and simply basing his assertion on hearsay.

Can't he learn by reading books? After all, Kabuto hasn't seen Madara either, but he knows about his power, and Orochimaru takes all of Kabuto's knowledge and powers. Meanwhile, Orochimaru was saying something like I'm still not superior to Hiruzen, but I couldn't find him.

Konohamaru never met Ku afaik and as such, doesn't have the knowledge of include Ku in this statement. Also, "we" means as a team.

Team 7 saw it. He should know about the missions they went on. Even if we're not including Ku, he also saw Konohamaru, Momoshiki, and Kinshiki.

Nuh uh, Kurotsuchi only scales to kinshiki with her lava jutsu. She pushed back an unaware kinshiki.

Am I seeing it wrong? Isn't he throwing a straight punch here? Momoshiki and Kinshiki can already absorb chakra so they can fight against them without jutsu. Darui also made Momoshiki sweat without jutsu. According to his profile on wiki, Kurotsuchi is not only lava punch but also scales to Low 5-B. He also used Lava punch against Ku.

 

[Damage3245]

After all, Kabuto hasn't seen Madara either, but he knows about his power,

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I forgot this

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

By the way, Sarada, who saw Ku's power, says Jugo is too strong. So even if you don't accept the arguments for Hiruzen, Konohamaru and Jugo can still be upgraded.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

this version of Konohamaru never fought or even saw Ku fight, his strongest reference point at this point is like Jugo and sannin level fights.

 

[KaydeeX]

I’ve always found the konohamaru statement of him never surpassing Hiruzen absurd. Not only can the context divert in multiple implications that doesn’t necessarily have to correlate with strength but He -Konohamaru- never witnessed Hiruzen in his prime. Infact, he wasn’t even born then.

Jugo being above Ku and Ku being above Kurotsuchi it’s already on its own Contradictory. See how it goes;
Kurotsuchi~<Kinshiki~Base Naruto<base jigen>>10% Jigen>Koji>>Konohamaru~Jugo
If Jugo presumably becomes stronger than kurotsuchi, then that places him in the Otsustuki tier which just makes the whole thing circular and the whole premise becomes a discrepancy.
Not only did Team 7 not encounter Ku as a whole -as compared to against Jugo- But the foundation of The statement made towards Jugo holds false given that the hypothetical situation did exist.

Put me on Disagree

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

also Ku doesnt scale to Kurosuchi, not only is this inconsistent with Ku's own showings later on, Kurosuchih herself says she didnt take him serious enough.

also Ku is vastly inferior to a bunch of people who are massively inferior to people like sasuke who Kinshiki can consistently harm

Disagree

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Kurotsuchi~<Kinshiki~Base Naruto<base jigen>>10% Jigen>Koji>>Konohamaru~Jugo

I don't understand how Jigen is weaker than Base Naruto. Jigen is already stronger than all Naruto forms except Baryon mode.

Seeing Ku's power, Sarada says Jugo is "very strong".

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

also Ku is vastly inferior to a bunch of people who are massively inferior to people like sasuke who Kinshiki can consistently harm

I don't think Kinshiki is relative to Sasuke. Kinshiki fought against a chakra nerfed Sasuke. FP Sasuke>>Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki. Also Kurotsuchi stated that he didn't fight carefully but he used jutsu. Even if Ku doesn't, at least Ku should scale to that. Even if Ku was defeated by team 7, he only gave them a speed scale. Boruto hit Ku's weak point with a rasengan.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I don't think Kinshiki is relative to Sasuke. Kinshiki fought against a chakra nerfed Sasuke.

theres no way to quantify sasuke's nerf at the start of the kinshiki fight, and its likely not substantial enough to drop his physicals to that degree, given the same even more nerfed sasuke can physical tango with fused momoshiki who is >Kinshiki

 

[KaydeeX]

I don't understand how Jigen is weaker than Base Naruto. Jigen is already stronger than all Naruto forms except Baryon mode.

I used the sign that denotes Base Jigen is above Base Naruto tho. At least, that’s what’s accepted here on Wiki

Seeing Ku's power, Sarada says Jugo is "very strong".

Yes, what’s wrong with both of them being strong but not on the same level? Seeing Naruto Power, Sarada still calls Deepa strong and impossible to defeat.

 

[Testarossa002]

Can't he learn by reading books? After all, Kabuto hasn't seen Madara either, but he knows about his power, and Orochimaru takes all of Kabuto's knowledge and powers. Meanwhile, Orochimaru was saying something like I'm still not superior to Hiruzen, but I couldn't find him.

....and kabuto elaborated further that he doesn't know madara's power was like when alive. Besides, learning by reading books is still hearsay. Especially when we don't know the details from said hypothetical book. Unlike someone like hagoromo who's "hearsay" had a specific feat attached which could be used to guage his power.

Team 7 saw it. He should know about the missions they went on.

Another hearsay

Momoshiki, and Kinshiki.

Both weren't threats he faced as a team with other members of team 7.

Am I seeing it wrong? Isn't he throwing a straight punch here? Momoshiki and Kinshiki can already absorb chakra so they can fight against them without jutsu. Darui also made Momoshiki sweat without jutsu. According to his profile on wiki, Kurotsuchi is not only lava punch but also scales to Low 5-B. He also used Lava punch against Ku.

Going to drop this since the profile supports your claim and I'm not interested in arguing against it for now.

Sarada says Jugo is "very strong

She doesn't relate it with Ku

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

also KU wooped sarada's ass, they beat Ku via lifting strength and targeting his exposed heart.

 

[Damage3245]

To clarify, I'm also in disagreement with this for the reasons stated in the other disagreeing posts above.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, I'm not really convinced either. Sorry.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

theres no way to quantify sasuke's nerf at the start of the kinshiki fight, and its likely not substantial enough to drop his physicals to that degree, given the same even more nerfed sasuke can physical tango with fused momoshiki who is >Kinshiki

Couldn't Sasuke have gotten stronger? Couldn't the Momoshiki arc be at the level of Kinshiki and Momoshiki and then surpass both of them in the next arc? After all, the characters become stronger as they fight.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Also in the 2nd battle Sasuke will scale to Kinshiki even though Kinshiki Susanoo does not scale to Sasuke or Chidori Amp Sasuke.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

also KU wooped sarada's ass, they beat Ku via lifting strength and targeting his exposed heart.

Yes, Ku's heart is his weak point. They couldn't damage him without hitting that heart. The scale they got from Ku is the speed scale and Mitsuki gets the LS scale because he can hold it with his snakes.

 

[Testarossa002]

Side remark
I hope everyone can see how we're trying to "explain away" the OP's proposal instead of going "there's no way Jugo is stronger than Madara" even though that may be a more convenient stance to take.

I'm imploring anyone who cares enough about boruto scaling to follow similar routes when arguing for or against certain upgrades/downgrades.

It's no secret that boruto's scaling situation is less than ideal. I simply believe we can make sense of it somewhat instead of hand waving it by appealing to fallacies.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Side remark
I hope everyone can see how we're trying to "explain away" the OP's proposal instead of going "there's no way Jugo is stronger than Madara" even though that may be a more convenient stance to take.

I'm imploring anyone who cares enough about boruto scaling to follow similar routes when arguing for or against certain upgrades/downgrades.

It's no secret that boruto's scaling situation is less than ideal. I simply believe we can make sense of it somewhat instead of hand waving it by appealing to fallacies.

Okay. But c'mon, big dawg, there's no way Jugo is stronger than Madara.

 

[Excellence616]

I disagree with OP

 

[Nierre]

wow. just wow.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

10/10 thread

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Seeing Naruto Power, Sarada still calls Deepa strong and impossible to defeat.

Naruto is not on the enemy's side anyway. Sarada might have only thought of the enemies when she said this. At least Deepa>Shin