Predator Revision

[Promestein]

I'm not arguing for 9-C Predators and I know that a Predator losing to a Bear is bullshit, but we can't just ignore all these feats just because they're not as good.

Still big enough for a mushroom cloud and said to have wiped out 100 city blocks equivalent. Dutch surviving is just PIS and a retcon.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

300 city blocks*

 

[fandom_560165]

Wiping out a civilization isn't a calc-able feat, civilization could be as big as a wandering tribe or something like that.
9-B Preds seems consistent enough to me.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SST5NjFSYEo



The civilization in question is definitely not a "wandering tribe." It was largely Mesoamerican-based and wasn't directly stated which one. However, the man mentions the hierloglyphs were a mix of Aztec, Egyptian, and Khmer.





So high end feats are suddenly out of the equation? Shouldn't this apply to like the majority of characters on this site then?



Consistency rules don't seem to apply very well against Predators given they are an entire species, not a single character, are subject to a highly unstable, inconsistent canon and vast array of independent writers with distinct portrayals for Predators in combat.



Even in the films is this quite obvious; ever noticed how feats contradict each other greatly and there are always new weapons/features for them? They are even far unmatched by any other action sci-fi species in terms of inconsistency and variety.

 

[Promestein]

It's not gonna be Tier 6 destruction regardless, and no, high-end feats aren't out of the equation, but high-end feats need some consistency. The 9-A feat is not that consistent. Doesn't matter if they're a race or not; the 9-B is the most consistent end.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Having language fragments from other large civilizations doesn't make it a large civilization. We can't calc it because it doesn't have anything to calc, all we know is that a civilization of some size was wiped out. It could feasibly take up 300 city blocks, or a bit more, who knows.

Your average Predator is what we're getting at. 9-B is consistent for the average Predator we've seen.

 

[fandom_560165]

I'm not arguing for 9-C Predators and I know that a Predator losing to a Bear is bullshit, but we can't just ignore all these feats just because they're not as good.

Still big enough for a mushroom cloud and said to have wiped out 100 city blocks equivalent. Dutch surviving is just PIS and a retcon.

Well if we're going to bring consistency into the equation for Predators, then you are met with this hot mess. They are obviously not meant to be consistent, especially in comparison to individual battle characters like Batman and Hulk for example and even to sci fi species in Halo and Star Wars.

Then again, I could tell you from the top of my head countless, consistent examples of pathetic Predator showings than just losing to a bear: also lost to African tribesman, Mayan warrior, man only armed with a flintlock pistol, panther, 2 rednecks, etc...

And vice versa for great Predator showings: upper hand over hordes of xenomorphs including Alien Queens in melee combat, Space Jockeys, giant mech droids, futuristic soldiers, unidentified yet obviously formidable alien species, etc...

 

[fandom_560165]

Having language fragments from other large civilizations doesn't make it a large civilization. We can't calc it because it doesn't have anything to calc, all we know is that a civilization of some size was wiped out. It could feasibly take up 300 city blocks, or a bit more, who knows.
Your average Predator is what we're getting at. 9-B is consistent for the average Predator we've seen.

Not to calc, just to give the highest self destruct feat even more ground.

I'd even say 9-B is debatable if it's consistent or not. You consistently have "average" Predator higher and lower than 9-B.

 

[fandom_560165]

It's not gonna be Tier 6 destruction regardless, and no, high-end feats aren't out of the equation, but high-end feats need some consistency. The 9-A feat is not that consistent. Doesn't matter if they're a race or not; the 9-B is the most consistent end.

So you reject the tier 6 feat as it only occurred once... How many times more do we need it to occur for you to consider? Not to mention if we're going by this logic, then all self destruct feats should be disregarded. Just about all of the ones I recall fall under different APs only once or twice.

It should matter given it is one of the huge factors in their inconsistency and variety.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Oh boy.

It happened once and was many, many times larger than any other feat shown. We are not throwing consistency out the window, as you say, in fact we're doing the opposite and taking everything that has shown to be consistent for Predators.

We're not lowballing them into 9-C, nor should we highball them into 9-A. We're not looking for the lowest bounds you can think of nor the highest heights. We're looking for a middle ground. The most consistent path.

 

[Promestein]

There's several feats that would come in at low Tier 7, so 7-C is completely consistent and reasonable. There's only one Tier 6 self-destruction feat, which is better than every other Predator feat, including the weapons of Predator warships.

9-B is the most consistent average point. Sure, some Predators are higher and others are lower but that's where most and most of their feats fall.

 

[fandom_560165]

Oh boy.
It happened once and was many, many times larger than any other feat shown. We are not throwing consistency out the window, as you say, in fact we're doing the opposite and taking everything that has shown to be consistent for Predators.

We're not lowballing them into 9-C, nor should we highball them into 9-A. We're not looking for the lowest bounds you can think of nor the highest heights. We're looking for a middle ground. The most consistent path.

The same can be said for other self destruct showings. One clearly obliterated a city, one only vaporized the fallen Predator, one only damaged a metal room, one only ablazed a forest (your example), the 6 tier one, and this leads to strong evidence that their wrist gauntlets give them various powers settings for the self destruct. I'd say there isn't even a consistent middle ground either.

 

[Promestein]

The city destruction was from a ship self-destruct.

And yes, I agree that they have different power settings but we can't assume that the Tier 6 explosion is the highest possible when there's no other feats on that level. The Tier 7 is a more consistent high-end.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The new page looks wonderful, voicing my support for this.

 

[fandom_560165]

The city destruction was from a ship self-destruct.
And yes, I agree that they have different power settings but we can't assume that the Tier 6 explosion is the highest possible when there's no other feats on that level. The Tier 7 is a more consistent high-end.

So we're just speaking of only wrist gauntlet self destruct. Yet even the ship's self-destruct varied with the one in Predators merely dispatching the ship.

There are often specific reasons behind the purpose for such individual self destruct showings. The tier 6 feat was in a much different situation than the lowest self destruct feat of only vaporizing a Predator. I haven't witness a consistent tier 7 self destruct. Then again, what exactly does it take to be considered "consistent?" Self destructing is an uncommon occurrence in the Predator serieses in general.

Perhaps there can be a compromise with there being a composite Predator while there still could be "intermediate" Predators as you describe.

 

[Promestein]

Again, I've listed multiple feats that would qualify for low Tier 7; all of the self-destruct feats listed on the page I made qualify. Much more consistent. It already is composite; composite characters can have inconsistencies.

There are different reasons, yes, and you can argue that the Tier 6 feat is valid, but that requires a lot more assumptions. It's more reasonable and consistent to acknowledge that it may just be an outlier.

 

[fandom_560165]

The statement from Predator 2 was the only one I say completely tier 7 and contradicts what was shown in Predator 1. The one in the flashback we didn't even completely see where it ended beyond the main pyramid and being told "an entire civilization wiped out over night" sounding akin to the tier 6 feat.

If the tier 6 feet is an "outlier" so should quite a few of those other feats you've listed for the Predator as well. The self destruct is not a common occurrence in the series anyways and there's myriads of equipment you didn't include on the Predator page shown to exist either once or twice. Yet some you included like the power punch glove only showed in one issue. So shouldn't they be excluded as well?

I thought composite was supposed to include the highest feats for any character even if they aren't consistent.

 

[Promestein]

Again, when the civilization size isn't known you can't assume it's Tier 6; it could easily be Tier 7. And the other AVP self-destruction feat is Tier 7. It doesn't really totally contradict it, anyways; it's just inconsistent with Dutch outrunning it, but it's still a huge explosion that leaves a mushroom cloud.

I listed the most notable stuff, because I'm not going to go through the trouble to list every single bit of equipment especially when a lot of it isn't very notable at all?

Outliers still exist. Especially since this isn't some completely different continuity with different rules, it's just something that may or may not be canon. Just a story.

 

[fandom_560165]

The flashback may not be the most absolute, but I'm merely using it for extra and minor ground for the tier 6 feat. The 2nd self destruct in AvP we didn't get to see the full extent of it either since the pyramid hindered it. You can tell by how much slower its fumes spread and it could've been set to a lower power setting just to make sure it didn't obliterate anything beyond the infestation and give Scar and Lex enough of a chance to escape.

The mushroom cloud wasn't that large and it didn't scorch down the jungle like it was described in Predator 2. It also contradicts the nature of the explosions in later versions of the self destruct.

Well you went through the trouble of listing quite a few obscure equipment and features besides the power glove feature.

You know technically, only the Fire and Stone series is canon and reboot for AvP and Predator series. Your entire Predator page is based on what is technically non-canon. Prior to the reboot, there was no official standard for what is and isn't canon for AvP/Predator but fanfiction and the like were obviously out of the equation.

Considering how rare the self destruct's use is and is utilized in special circumstances, there shouldn't be such a thing as an outlier self destruct. It should guage their highest potential in technology we've witnessed. Predator morals are a serious factor as well. Outliers then should apply to much of their feats like the plasma caster, even if I don't believe that is the case but rather the cause of other factors I've described.

 

[Promestein]

If it was tier 6 it would've easily blown up the entire island. The Tier 7 is just more consistent, even with the 8-A normal weapons, much more consistent than bumping them up to 6-B based on a single feat and assuming the highest possible results for a statement.

Is any of that really obscure it's all pretty notable stuff? If I listed it it's because it's either a staple of their arsenal or worth noting.

Well, okay? It's a composite page, like the Alien page. We've already discussed that, and yes, I've acknowledged that stuff. I don't know what you're trying to argue for here, but yes, there should still be outliers. There can be outliers for anything, even for the Plasmacaster, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Promestein makes sense.

 

[fandom_560165]

You mean in the flashback? It occurred outside the island. The second one didn't but could be attributed to setting it to a lower power setting to suit the situation as is typically the case for self destruct. Even the outlier and inconsistency pages mention there must be reasons/factors to excuse them here. In this case it's the situation/plot, diversity among the predators and writers/canon, obscurity, all connecting back to some common Predator morals (the broad similaries they have) as well. These are more than just pure speculation.

And arguably, lower tier feats for the self destruct are far more consistent than that one clear 7 tier feat...

Well definitely the power glove (the sat-com has more showings and arguably importance than this yet is nowhere to be seen), the energy flechette, and flaying tool (they never even used this as a weapon in the series).

We disagree on what consitutes as "outlier," especially regarding Predators who I think are subject to many factors where drawing the line like in the self destruct for example. I haven't told you all of them and in full detail though I'm not sure if it will be enough for you to draw the line elsewhere.

 

[Promestein]

The second one. And while that's true, the Tier 6 stuff isn't at all substantiated; if they showed it having a higher rating or if there was another clear Tier 6 feat I'd be inclined to agree with you, but as it is, there's a lot of assumptions to put Tier 6 as fine and not an outlier.

And while low-ends are more common than the higher end of Tier 7 feats (though low-end feats are always more common because not every feat can be amazing), at least they're not few and far between, and are much more consistent than Tier 6. High-end Tier 8 weaponry and Tier 7 feats for them make it consistent.

I didn't know where else to put the Flaying Tool is all. And the Sat-Com is there, it's just not listed separately.

Evidently.

 

[fandom_560165]

In other words, you draw the line at two clear tier 6 instances. I still think this is all ridiculous and quite a stretch to claim it is an outlier. The self destruct doesn't have very many clear showings in general (esp. compared to much of their arsenal) and were obviously reliant on the situation (I wouldn't even consider this an "assumption"). Something also tells me if we were left with only two self destruct showings in the series, the tier 7 and tier 6, you'd have no issues with accepting the latter. What if I suggested "Likely tier 6?"

Those lower self destruct feats were certainly distant from and far more common (equally to tier 6 as well) than tier 7. I'm not sure if I could say low-end feats are always more common than high end feats (I think they are about the same and less common at least for more stable/consistent series), but the self destruct is something that fluctuates for a reason just like the plasma caster for example.

The flaying tool shouldn't be there tbh. Oh I missed it, my bad though I think it deserves more attention than the power glove.

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Tier 6 is definitely an outlier, when the archaeologist explains the history of the Predators in AvP, he clearly says "Entire Cities would be wiped out overnight".

 

[fandom_560165]

Tier 6 is definitely an outlier, when the archaeologist explains the history of the Predators in AvP, he clearly says "Entire Cities would be wiped out overnight".

Tier 6 self destruct's significance in AvP 2010 says otherwise.

He most definitely states "An entire civilization wiped out overnight."

Said civilization largely portrayed the Aztecs, but with Predator influence. Either way, they and "cities" are both higher than town level.

 

[Promestein]

If there were only two self-destruct showings I don't know what I'd go with but that's not the situation here so it's not relevant. No more support than there was before so no, I'm still not good with Tier 6.

Okay. You're probably right.

We really can't assume a tier for it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Cities in ancient times were probably nowhere near as large as our own, keep in mind. Take it for what you will, but this is the most notable (as in the largest) Aztec city I can think of, featuring a meager 20,000 population when it wasn't a feast day. In some places that wouldn't classify as a modern day city at all (lowest population I can find is minimum of 5000 people, which could easily fit into 300 city blocks).

Just sayin'. Currently, Predator self destruct is more powerful than low-end nuclear bombs. They can wipe cities (makes sense, see above) and such.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Isn't the Country level predator thing based on this feat from AvP 2010? Because in the same game you detonate other wrist gauntlets and they're extremely small and contained. It does seem like a ultra-high end feat, but that may be because its an ancient and sacred Predator location so they may've given the temple a larger explosive device than normal.

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Promestei also wouldn't peak Preadtor (aka Scarface) be Town level in durability due to this ?

 

[Promestein]

He wasn't at the epicenter of the explosion and it'd be an outlier anyways.

 

[fandom_560165]

Cities in ancient times were probably nowhere near as large as our own, keep in mind. Take it for what you will, but this is the most notable (as in the largest) Aztec city I can think of, featuring a meager 20,000 population when it wasn't a feast day. In some places that wouldn't classify as a modern day city at all (lowest population I can find is minimum of 5000 people, which could easily fit into 300 city blocks).
Just sayin'. Currently, Predator self destruct is more powerful than low-end nuclear bombs. They can wipe cities (makes sense, see above) and such.

Actually, Tenochtitla rivaled Boise, Idaho based on typical estimates and likely even larger with latest Mesoamerican research. The Aztecs were also an empire who originally came from Aridoamerica and settled in Mesoamerica. They conquered and assimilated countless pre-existing, neighboring cities to this extent. The "20,000" estimate was referring to their daily market populace of Tenochtitlan, not the total city population.

Due to Predator influence, no modern civilization comes close to matching the Aztecs in the series. So it's safe to say their entire civilization was at least as complex as modern civilization in every way.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. Fair enough, that said, that is a larger city. The chance that the city destroyed was of that size would be minutely small. Considering Boise isn't much larger than our given area (a bit over 28x), the blast would likely still be within 7-C/High 7-C standards, since there's no reason to assume it'd be of the size of the largest Aztec city.

And... why would we assume that? That just means Predators wiped out a civilization that might have harmed the Aztecs. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[fandom_560165]

1. Fair enough, that said, that is a larger city. The chance that the city destroyed was of that size would be minutely small. Considering Boise isn't much larger than our given area (a bit over 28x), the blast would likely still be within 7-C/High 7-C standards

I figured it would raise it to city level as Boise is a modern city and is in fact among the top 150 cities by populace and land mass out of 19,522 USA cities.

I thought we made it clear the self destruct wiped out more than just one city, but their entire civilization composed of countless cities. The Aztec Empire's size fell within 6-B range IRL. In the AvP series, the Aztec Empire became far more advanced and complex as the Predators introduced them to their technology and ideas: sort of a Native American Wakanda.

I'm very certain the self destruct wiped out the Aztec Empire and not some other civilization who harmed them. The film just didn't directly state they were Aztec. It was heavily implied and indirectly described they were though.

 

[fandom_560165]

If there were only two self-destruct showings I don't know what I'd go with but that's not the situation here so it's not relevant. No more support than there was before so no, I'm still not good with Tier 6.

It kinda is the situation here since there are only two clear self destruct showings at two distinct tiers while other self destruct showings are much lower yet more common.


Maybe this will help at least in proving they are easily capable of such destruction:

"Then suddenly the spaceship door opened . . .
The Predator shot out from the open door atop a grey hovering surface that looked like a sled . . . With the Predator came light, an event horizon of light, radiating swiftly from the groove around the side of the spaceship. A circle of light golden and light green, mixing and hissing. Streaming out on all sides, traveling a few inches off the ground. It kept coming and coming, the Predator riding over it like a surfer . . .
Not a defensive weapon, an offensive weapon.
Gustat heard a cry . . . and another sound above the hum of the deadly light, the sound of trees and bushes splintering, vaporizing, and crumbling, and then he was looking both at the edge of the light coming at him, like a phosphorescent horizontal buzz saw, and the flat surface of that light, striations like rings in a redwood . . .
Wearily Gustat climbed out of the mud to a scene of utter devastation. The light radiating from the spacecraft had singed, burned, or just pulverized anything three inches above the ground . . .
For all Gustat knew, the entire island had just been destroyed except for the spaceship and the area immediately around it."

^ Long story short, Predators have some flying surfboard/sled demolish an entire island within moments (avoiding his spaceship for obvious reasons).

 

[fandom_560165]

He wasn't at the epicenter of the explosion and it'd be an outlier anyways.

This I agree with since the durability of the Predator's natural durability shouldn't fluctuate and lacks ground compared to the tier 6 self destruct. The only other possible explanation I'd add is the Predator's armor; it's far more durable than a naked Predator (it can withstand any weapon known to man according to the Yautja encyclopedia) and Scarface was one of the more heavily armored Predators but still did get injured (albeit mildy) by the explosion.

I just don't agree with claiming higher self-destruct feats as outliers since more significant, complex reasoning and factors are involved than Scarface's durability feat.

 

[Qawsedf234]

> The Aztec Empire's size fell within 6-B range IRL. In the AvP series, the Aztec Empire became far more advanced and complex as the Predators introduced them to their technology and ideas: sort of a Native American Wakanda.


I don't think it was the Aztec Empire. The Empire that the Predator's influenced was located in Antarctica when it wasn't frozen over. Plus in the movie itself they mention that the Aztecs were influenced by the ancient Human-Predator civilization.

Anyways I agree that the 6-B feat is an outlier or requires more setup than normal.

 

[fandom_560165]

I don't think it was the Aztec Empire. The Empire that the Predator's influenced was located in Antarctica when it wasn't frozen over. Plus in the movie itself they mention that the Aztecs were influenced by the ancient Human-Predator civilization.

Anyways I agree that the 6-B feat is an outlier or requires more setup than normal.

If we use IRL evidence, it would've been impossible for Antartica being somewhat of a habitable landmass for civilization (humans didn't even exist when it did). It didn't specifically state that civilization was in Antarctica either. The flashback could very well be referring to outside the Antartica where in this case I figured is definitely Aztec.
The major issues for it being that "Human-Predator civilization" is the flashback civilization greatly differed in architecture. The archaelogist described the buried temple of this supposed Anarctic civilization as a blend of Aztec, Egyptian, and Khmer work. It was also constructed in a very strange location for civilization (why was it buried so deep?) and as it it was meant to take advantage of modern human curiosity...

The rest of my issues over that theory lie here if you're interested:

- temple is in Antarctica, but the flashback revealed a completely different civilization most similar to the Aztec; the temple didn't even look anything like Aztec
- any differences btw IRL Aztecs and AvP Aztecs could be explained by the non-Aztec influences the Yautja brought over them and minor, superficial inaccuracies on film developers' part.
- temple was only assumed as part of an entirely undocumented civilization in Antarctica.
- concept artwork of AvP includes: Predators hovering over pyramids identical to Tenochtitlan's and Teotihuacan's with more accurate Aztec people representations, "Pyramid of the Sun" on Predator homeworld, etc. Predator-Mesoamerican artwork contributing AvP's development.
- great similarities btw the Yautja and Aztec, far more so than Predator similarities btw Egypt and Khmer even within the Antarctic temple.
-it never stated if the "Antarctic civilization" was the civilization in the flashback.
-the flashback point out an entirely different civilization which largely portrays the Aztecs; the temples and pyramids were remarkably similar, but even if they weren't exactly the same pyramids, they were certainly more similar to them than the Egyptians and Khmer.
- the temple found in Antarctica didn't look anything like the ones in the flashback and
- how were they (rookie Predators) going to hunt the Xenomorphs when there were no hosts anywhere near the temple? Plan involves taking advantage of modern human curiosity?
- how would humans migrate to Antarctica during VERY ancient times and? Predators abducting and dropping humans down to Antarctica?

Even if it wasn't the Aztec Empire, the proposed Predator-Human civilization would've been more advanced and complex than modern civilization thanks to Predator influence. So either way, they at least fall within tier 6.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You're making waaay too many assumptions. Even with the info you've given, you want to exrtrapolate that Predators Interfered = Tier 6. By this wiki's quality standards, that isn't gonna happen. Now, if you do find another CALC-ABLE explosion, I'll gladly do it. But what you're proposing just isn't up to the standards of the wiki.

 

[fandom_560165]

You're making waaay too many assumptions. Even with the info you've given, you want to exrtrapolate that Predators Interfered = Tier 6. By this wiki's quality standards, that isn't gonna happen. Now, if you do find another CALC-ABLE explosion, I'll gladly do it. But what you're proposing just isn't up to the standards of the wiki.

Since when did all such feats require calcs? Calcs also require "many assumptions." I don't see what the issue is here. I'm not using pure speculation. My "assumptions" are largely grounded and were mostly relevant to deciding whether or not the civilization in the flashback was the Aztec Empire or the Anarctic civilization. Either way, both were clearly more complex than modern civilization (usually fall within tier 6) so it's safe to say they fell within tier 6.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Okay. Agreed, not all feats require calcs. If a man is running faster than a car, we definitely have a place to put him. If some random superhero explicitly runs at the speed of lightning and shows things to back this up, fine by me. If a simple brick wall is destroyed, we know it'd probably be 9-B.

Your feat, however, goes completely off of assumptions and has no quantifiable factors to it. You assume the size of the civilization, how advanced they are, etc etc. We know literally nothing about said civilization, so no, we cannot quantify this aside from "pssoibly higher".

VS Battles Wiki has a tendency to only use that which uses the least possible assumptions. This is true regardless of what stat is being looked for, even more so for AP, since it is the one that weighs the most heavily into all activities on this site. So, without any assumptions in these feats that make them incredibly and vastly unreliable, what is the greatest explosion feat of their self-destruct? Because I will gladly calc it to help out. But know that the wiki goes by as few assumptions as humanly possible. And you're asking that a lot of them get accepted for Tier 6, which is a HUGE outlier anyways, to go through.