Preceding existence, creation, universe etc...

[Quasar002]

Hello! I have a question for some wiki members. I've seen on other wikis and other forums, where people scale before existence, creation or whatever... Like beyond dimensional existence. In addition to the fact that if the char precedes time, it would automatically be timeless, which within the wiki, must be causality type 2, I think.Well, what's the wiki's take on this? And what argument is used to refute this analogy that if you precede something, you are not limited to it. For example, char X predates time, so it is timeless, or char Y predates spacetime, so it has beyond-dimensional existence.

 

[Dreed]

Bump

 

[Quasar002]

Bump

I had forgotten about this thread, thanks for reminding me lol.

 

[Quasar002]

Bump

 

[Dreed]

This a fire topic I wouldve like to see it popular on here.

 

[Quasar002]

This a fire topic I wouldve like to see it popular on here.

I usually see a lot of people outside the wiki saying that the character is timeless because it is older than time.I've also seen a lot of people saying that the character is a beyond-dimensional existence because he's older than the universe or something like that. I would like to know if this is treated as a fact here on the wiki (which I believe not, because there are many characters here on the wiki that exist before time and do not have type 2 causality). And I would like to see the argument to refute these people's analogy.

 

[Dreed]

I usually see a lot of people outside the wiki saying that the character is timeless because it is older than time.I've also seen a lot of people saying that the character is a beyond-dimensional existence because he's older than the universe or something like that. I would like to know if this is treated as a fact here on the wiki (which I believe not, because there are many characters here on the wiki that exist before time and do not have type 2 causality). And I would like to see the argument to refute these people's analogy.

Same.

 

[Qawsedf234]

A: No. As said above, predating a certain concept does not necessarily imply any form of superiority over it, especially not to the degree where it warrants an 1-A rating.

Timeless Voids, i.e. areas within a setting that lack time or exist outside of the flow of time, cannot be used to grant Infinite speed. One might be tempted to apply Speed = Distance/Time and say that time equals 0 in this situation, thus moving through this type of void should result in Infinite speed. However, in a Timeless Void, time does not exist, making Time = Not Applicable. So in short, Time = Nonexistent or Not Applicable and Distance/Time = Undefined and cannot be determined under these conditions.

It should also be noted that simply existing in some alternate state of existence that lacks time and/or space is not really grounds for any tier in particular, as lacking such things does not translate to being superior to them, and would most often overlap with abilities like Acausality or Nonexistent Physiology. A good example of a case like this is Dormammu (Marvel Cinematic Universe), who is stated to exist in a realm "far beyond time," yet never actually displays any superiority over it, and is in fact vulnerable to time-based abilities due to his timeless nature.

A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor

Existing before or without something isn't considered an automatic example of them being superior to the concept or immune to stuff.

Though predating concepts can give you certain powers depending on what you predate.

 

[Quasar002]

Existing before or without something isn't considered an automatic example of them being superior to the concept or immune to stuff.

Though predating concepts can give you certain powers depending on what you predate.

Thanks for the answer. these subjects are a bit complex for me lol. But the analogy of people who say that preceding time/space would mean that you don't depend on it to live (after all, there was no time, so there could be no future or past version, Which I would put as acausality type 2). And as far as I know, if there is no space, then there is no dimension, which would make them not applicable to the concept of dimension. These are usually the arguments thrown.

 

[Qawsedf234]

And as far as I know, if there is no space, then there is no dimension, which would make them not applicable to the concept of dimension

A dimension is just the minimal amount of points needed to define an object's position. If the thing has a physical body that can be quantified, then it's not beyond the concept of a dimension.

 

[Quasar002]

A dimension is just the minimal amount of points needed to define an object's position. If the thing has a physical body that can be quantified, then it's not beyond the concept of a dimension.

I understand. what about the question of time? predating time would not make the character have type 2 causality?

 

[Quasar002]

Kind of like if you exist before time, you shouldn't have a version of the past or the future.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Kind of like if you exist before time, you shouldn't have a version of the past or the future.

That depends on the Verse in some cases, mostly it is Aca type 1 but there are verses where time itself was made to limit those beings.

Example: During the dark times, Time Lords created the concept of lineal time and chained almost all beings to have a past, present and future.

 

[Quasar002]

That depends on the Verse in some cases, mostly it is Aca type 1 but there are verses where time itself was made to limit those beings.

Example: During the dark times, Time Lords created the concept of lineal time and chained almost all beings to have a past, present and future.

interesting, I hadn't stopped to think about that side. but what if a work gives no context about it? Let's say the work just says that character X is older than time, but that's all, nothing else is presented. Should we say he has type 2 acausality for logical reasons or needs of more context for fiction?

 

[Quasar002]

That depends on the Verse in some cases, mostly it is Aca type 1 but there are verses where time itself was made to limit those beings.

Example: During the dark times, Time Lords created the concept of lineal time and chained almost all beings to have a past, present and future.

The time lord you are talking about is from the Doctor Who work, correct?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

The time lord you are talking about is from the Doctor Who work, correct?

Yeah

interesting, I hadn't stopped to think about that side. but what if a work gives no context about it? Let's say the work just says that character X is older than time, but that's all, nothing else is presented. Should we say he has type 2 acausality for logical reasons or needs of more context for fiction?

Likely

 

[Quasar002]

Yeah

Likely

I've seen several episodes of the series, I didn't know that the time lords had such feats, then I'll take a look at their profile here on the wiki, I believe they have one. On the subject of time, I will wait for more response. Thanks for the comment.

 

[Qawsedf234]

predating time would not make the character have type 2 causality?

Not unless they show that ability. As noted in the FAQ, you can predate a concept without being superior to it. Superiority gives a rating or power, not predating it.

 

[Quasar002]

Not unless they show that ability. As noted in the FAQ, you can predate a concept without being superior to it. Superiority gives a rating or power, not predating it.

I agree with that, the way in which fiction treats "preceding concept X" is nothing, it needs more comprehensive exploits or citations indeed. But a lot of people use these argument stops to level up their favorite characters, lol

 

[Tdjwo]

What tier is it when the concepts of space, distance and time don't exist in a location?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Nothing. Because lacking any concept doesn't mean you're transcendent over that concept.

 

[Tdjwo]

What tier does

Nothing. Because lacking any concept doesn't mean you're transcendent over that concept.

It's actually stated to be above the boundaries of space and time as well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It's actually stated to be above the boundaries of space and time as well.

A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor

 

[Tdjwo]

This doesn't really answer my question.
Something is stated to be above the boundaries of space and time and also said to not have space or time in it. Doesn't that mean it's 1A since it's dimensionless?

 

[Qawsedf234]

This doesn't really answer my question.

It does. Being above space and time is at most a Low 1-C feat. But it doesn't give a higher Tier 1 rating without greater evidence.

t. Doesn't that mean it's 1A since it's dimensionless?

No, since the FAQ also addresses this

Q: What tier is transcending dimensions?​

A: As specified above, a "dimension" is nothing more than a set of values representing a given direction within a system, and a multi-dimensional space can itself be thought of as a multiplication of several "copies" of these sets. For instance, the 3-dimensional space in which we live is often visualized as the set of all 3-tuples of real numbers (Thus, taking its values from the real number line, R), and is thus the result of the iterated multiplication: R x R x R = R³, likewise, 4-dimensional space is the set of all 4-tuples of real numbers, and is thus equal to R x R x R x R = R⁴, and so on and so forth.

Practically speaking, this means that there is no limit for the number of dimensions which a space can have whatsoever, and one can construct spaces whose dimension corresponds to any cardinal number, including the infinite ones mentioned above. It is not even necessary for us to restrict ourselves to values taken from the real numbers, either: It is also possible to define the space of all n-tuples of cardinal numbers (Which takes its values from V, the class of all sets)

As a result, it is not at all feasible to take any statements involving a character existing "beyond dimensions" at face value, as this would lead to extremely inflated ratings largely dependent on No-Limits Fallacies. Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context.

 

[Uradial50]

Existing before or without something isn't considered an automatic example of them being superior to the concept or immune to stuff.

Though predating concepts can give you certain powers depending on what you predate.

Funny Enough

 

[Qawsedf234]

Funny Enough

While i can get that user's frustration, it is a important clerical point. A timeless voids has literally no time, so even Immeasurable speed (which is just having speed that goes through time) wouldn't apply to it, as there's no time you're going through.

It's why Timeless Voids are ni longer a justification here. Instead they represent some form of resistance or abstract existence. In this case the narrative being used is that Immeasurable speed is an Apple and a Timeless Void is a Orange. They may be fruit but at the end of the day there are fundamental differences.

 

[Uradial50]

While i can get that user's frustration, it is a important clerical point. A timeless voids has literally no time, so even Immeasurable speed (which is just having speed that goes through time) wouldn't apply to it, as there's no time you're going through.

It's why Timeless Voids are ni longer a justification here. Instead they represent some form of resistance or abstract existence. In this case the narrative being used is that Immeasurable speed is an Apple and a Timeless Void is a Orange. They may be fruit but at the end of the day there are fundamental differences.

I showed him your message and he responded this;
"I disagree, firstly the lack of time quite literally has nothing to do with an abstraction those are 2 seperate things, also no immeasurable speed and a place without time are not really different, immeasurable speed isn’t strictly the act of moving through time with raw movement it’s the act of your movement not being bound or being superior to linear time, if you move in a place that lacks time as a fundamental component for movement you would literally have to be moving at a speed unquantifiable to the speed formula since time is a fundamental component used to measure speed, so if you are moving at a speed so great that you can move without time you are logically moving at a pace that just simply isn’t measurable or quantifiable, as for saying the resistance part while I can understand this line of reasoning at first however this isn’t the same as pausing time. This is why its necessary to look at the narrative implications to see whether it’s implication of a resistance or not since a time stop and a place without time simply Arn’t really all that similar of cases."

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean the hang up is here

you move in a place that lacks time as a fundamental component for movement you would literally have to be moving at a speed unquantifiable to the speed formula

It's unquantifiable because T in the formula S = D/T doesn't exist in a realm with no time vs Immeasurable where T is present but in a non-definable state. In other words, the other person is misunderstanding how we interpret speed on the site. If T as an element doesn't exist its not undefined, it's absent entirely, which doesn't give you a rating currently.

 

[Uradial50]

I mean the hang up is here


It's unquantifiable because T in the formula S = D/T doesn't exist in a realm with no time vs Immeasurable where T is present but in a non-definable state. In other words, the other person is misunderstanding how we interpret speed on the site. If T as an element doesn't exist its not undefined, it's absent entirely, which doesn't give you a rating currently.

He said
"why doesn’t it give you a rating, what does that change, this isn’t a explanation this is kinda the equivalent to “Nuh uh” (no offence)"
Wdym hang up is here?

 

[MrTayman616]

He said
"why doesn’t it give you a rating, what does that change, this isn’t a explanation this is kinda the equivalent to “Nuh uh” (no offence)"
Wdym hang up is here?

S = D/T being unquantifiable is different than it not existing at all.

In a timeless realm, there is no S = D/T. There isn't any value to scale at all. When you remove time from Speed = Distance/ Time, you can't define it.

 

[SweetDao]

Honestly, if the guy is unhappy with the way we work, he can just scale however he wants, I don't understand why people are so obsessed with trying to "prove VSBW wrong" when it's just one way of seeing fiction among others.

 

[Uradial50]

Honestly, if the guy is unhappy with the way we work, he can just scale however he wants, I don't understand why people are so obsessed with trying to "prove VSBW wrong" when it's just one way of seeing fiction among others.

I mean he isn't really mad or unhappy, his just saying the definition of vsbw immeasurable speed would work with his logic.
By proving, of course.

 

[Voidnether]

I mean he isn't really mad or unhappy, his just saying the definition of vsbw immeasurable speed would work with his logic.
By proving, of course.

Dude, a timeless void doesn't even have linear time (Literally because they don't have time to begin with), you do know being unbound or transcending linear time (Which is apparently what gives you Immeasurable in the first place) requires the linear time to literally exist and for you to be unbound/transcend it? What

VSBW's Immeasurable speed works through being unbound by linear time, or multiple temporal dimensions, or higher temporal dimensions that apparently gives you layers above Immeasurable. They all indicate that time exists there, it's really just like this

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Infinite Speed (Able to travel any finite distance in zero time}, that's crazy
What is zero time ?

 

[Frey_Starlight]

as far i understand, what "zero time" used in this wiki, is simply speeds which doesn't account for/use teleportation abilities, but raw speed of characters that can travel those instantaneous finite distance

 

[Uradial50]

as far i understand, what "zero time" used in this wiki, is simply speeds which doesn't account for/use teleportation abilities, but raw speed of characters that can travel those instantaneous finite distance

so zero time = 0 frame?

 

[Qawsedf234]

why doesn’t it give you a rating,

Because there's not T, so the D moved happens without the existence of a timeframe. Which is why it gives you a resistance rather than a speed and our system doesn’t account for the non-existentance of T.

When you remove time from Speed = Distance/ Time, you can't define it.

No, if you remove T its just out of the equation. Its not undefinable, it's just not there. Undefined in a mathematical system means something exists within that system but a value cannot be assigned to it, in a Timeless Void it just outright doesn't exist.

his just saying the definition of vsbw immeasurable speed would work with his logic.

His logic is that a Timeless Void has undetermined T, which qualifies a Timeless Void as Immeasurable. Our standards is that a Timeless Void lacks T entirely, meaning its neither defined or undefined, but absent from the equation.

What is zero time ?

0 time means that either an infinite distance was moved in a finite amount of time or any distance was moved when there was no progression of time.

 

[MrTayman616]

Its not undefinable, it's just not there

I used the wrong word there :d