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So should we do Tier 6 for now while we wait for the Low 5-B calc to get approved
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Potential SAO Power Upgrade
- Thread starter CurrySenpai
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Please elaborate.
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As explained earlier, people can feel when Incarnation is used. The entire concept is caused by the desync between the simulation codebase (that is actual simulation code) and the Main Visualizer (the pseudo graphics engine of the world that aims to use "memory data" of the inhabitants to stream visuals, which is what causes Incarnation to exist at given moments). Similarly, characters can feel "something is off" when strong enough Incarnation is cast. In fact, numerous characters have shown this ability time and time again in the series, as it is not particularly an "ability". Think of it as an additional sense to the 5 senses we have in our reality, created due to the nature of the hardware in the outside world.
The feeling can come in a myriad of different ways and as a feeling, it comes with vague or abstract notions. For example, when Kirito casts the memory release ability of his weapon in the final climax, the people who do not even know a fight is happening on the far edge of the map, but they feel a calm and welcoming person gently enveloping them with care. People sense Eugeo's existence consistently throughout War of Underworld (as a memory fragment of his stuck in the Blue Rose Sword consistently activates to help people) mostly as a gentle push to keep them going. Bercouli himself feels the massive event that transpired in the Obsidia Palace, when the leader of the Dark Knights, Vixur Ul Shasta used some massive incarnation to defeat Emperor Vecta, as he senses Shasta's incarnation go blank as he is snuffed out etc.
Similarly, the "Incarnometers" I have mentioned somewhere in this thread basically tracks this too. It is entirely possible that someone may have felt the use of Incarnation back on Planet Cardina (not anyone that we know of, but that is a completely separate topic). This feeling has nothing to do with how close they are to the Incarnation that was cast, as it's a phenomenon caused by the real world side of the system.
The personal interpretation of the word "shaking" here in the original tweet is just that. A personal interpretation and a false one at that, because it's trying to act as if the abstract notion is a physical one, despite just the previous sentence already admitting there is nothing physical in the world.
The feeling can come in a myriad of different ways and as a feeling, it comes with vague or abstract notions. For example, when Kirito casts the memory release ability of his weapon in the final climax, the people who do not even know a fight is happening on the far edge of the map, but they feel a calm and welcoming person gently enveloping them with care. People sense Eugeo's existence consistently throughout War of Underworld (as a memory fragment of his stuck in the Blue Rose Sword consistently activates to help people) mostly as a gentle push to keep them going. Bercouli himself feels the massive event that transpired in the Obsidia Palace, when the leader of the Dark Knights, Vixur Ul Shasta used some massive incarnation to defeat Emperor Vecta, as he senses Shasta's incarnation go blank as he is snuffed out etc.
Similarly, the "Incarnometers" I have mentioned somewhere in this thread basically tracks this too. It is entirely possible that someone may have felt the use of Incarnation back on Planet Cardina (not anyone that we know of, but that is a completely separate topic). This feeling has nothing to do with how close they are to the Incarnation that was cast, as it's a phenomenon caused by the real world side of the system.
The personal interpretation of the word "shaking" here in the original tweet is just that. A personal interpretation and a false one at that, because it's trying to act as if the abstract notion is a physical one, despite just the previous sentence already admitting there is nothing physical in the world.
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I'm kinda spitballing here, but if there's 'nothing physical about that world', then how did RATH and the Alicization project make the technology that allows Alice Zuberg to be an actual person in the real-world of SAO, with zero hitches to boot?
Because I find it hilarious how you're using 'abstract concepts' to justify nerfs, when if the track record of VSBW is any indication, such detail has only been used to justify higher tiers. The alias Kirito is who we're mostly referring to, not Kasuto Kirigaya, who if these 'in-engine concept'/non-physicality based nerfs had any basis (and I know I've said this before), we might as well cut to the chase and say he's only street level.
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I don't think you understood anything I have said. I specifically said that the pseudo side effects of the Incarnation have no real physical value in that world. Like, the fundamental argument of this thread even says "nothing shook" but people are trying to turn it around by claiming "but something may have", because of a severe lack of fundamental knowledge about the world, leading to very basic things being taken so out of context.
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Not completely sure, but I think DMUA is also fine with a possibly now since he said: "whatever"?
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Following
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That is literally the direct opposite of my intent when I made my statement. Might I kindly ask you to quit twisting words into a pretzel so you can have your upgrade?
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This is why I said I was unsure. Sheesh.
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We know for a fact that this is untrue. We've seen the physical effects Incarnation has had. V18 even says: "giant flashes and explosions shook the world itself". Shaking isn't something that's abstract, no matter how you try to slice it. That is a physical effect that has actual force behind it. Reki's tweet talks about what is causing it. I don't '"feel like something's shaking", something actually is shaking. Yes, Incarnation does have abstract effects to it (ex: Bercouli sensing Shasta's death), but if anything, I feel like this would actually SUPPORT the argument. This is supporting the case of Incarnation causing the trembling. We see this as early as Volume 9 when Kirito (as a child) first sees Deuselbert, he literally uses Incarnation (a system overwrite) to knock the Axe out of Kirito's hands: "his intention itself formed a REAL blade and hit Kirito's axe." Again, this is a PHYSCIAL change. Not just an abstract one with no physical merit. We see effects like this all throughout the arc, why would this be any different?
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I swear, sometimes the lacking reading comprehension of some of you guys makes me question a whole lot of the content featured here.
Reki, in his tweet, is referring to the pseudo side effects. He literally says "nothing physically shook". He is not talking about physical effects. Hence why the entire argument breaks away from anything physical taking place in that world by default.
Reki, in his tweet, is referring to the pseudo side effects. He literally says "nothing physically shook". He is not talking about physical effects. Hence why the entire argument breaks away from anything physical taking place in that world by default.
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Well, we are at least doing almost everything we can to make the wiki as reliable as possible.
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Oh yeah, you're a Content Mod for the SAO Wikia right? I've been meaning to fill out some of Vassago's missing biography stuff (as in like the events that transpired during certain arcs and what he did.) but I don't know if I need to join the discord for thread adoption or not. (Sorry if this is a weird place to task that question).Oh didn't mean it to be a jab that way, sorry if it was misunderstood. I was generally referring to some claims being made on threads I participate in, I don't know anything aside from SAO anyways
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After reading most of the arguments made
I'm neutral but im kinda leaning towards @Kaantantr points
I'm neutral but im kinda leaning towards @Kaantantr points
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No problem.Oh didn't mean it to be a jab that way, sorry if it was misunderstood. I was generally referring to some claims being made on threads I participate in, I don't know anything aside from SAO anyways
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I mean a lot of this is motivated by the whole 'is Kirito OP?' accusations that are thrown around by Digibro-era haters of the series. I've always agreed with the nerfs from 4-B, but I think the place where we're butting heads is 'to what extent?' (I'm fairly sure I've said this before as well). I'm beginning to wonder if part of the reason @Kaantantr is against these re-upgrades is that it'll be used to justify the old 4-B rating (in spite of the fact that his skybox video should have been the end-all for that particular debate).
FantaRin_The_First
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Am dropping in: I've been lurking around here for a while, and wish to say... that I don't find anything particularly wrong with the evidence that Curry has given and agree with the upgrade proposed.
Also, wish to state that I think SAO has reached its power cap and won't raise until wanking happens and/or new SAO Works & Q&As comes out which might be used to raise power levels. But that is off-topic talk.
Also, wish to state that I think SAO has reached its power cap and won't raise until wanking happens and/or new SAO Works & Q&As comes out which might be used to raise power levels. But that is off-topic talk.
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You don't need to join the Discord, but it is highly recommended if you are interested in editing tasks. Gsi is very strict with content additions, so it makes things easier. Although if you have more questions, I think it's better suited for DMs.
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I am still neutral, but I think Kaantanr is starting to make more sense also. Perhaps, @SomebodyData could give his inputs since he is listed as a verse supporter.
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I don't think this is it ngl. I'm fairly sure we've been through all of this already which is why Kiriboy got nerfed in the first place.
That said, I disagree. This thread probably needs to be closed. I agree with DMUA and Kaantantr's stances on this, as we really need to stop bringing this up when these points have been debunked so much - the entire reason why Kirito isn't Island or tier 4 anymore.
That said, I disagree. This thread probably needs to be closed. I agree with DMUA and Kaantantr's stances on this, as we really need to stop bringing this up when these points have been debunked so much - the entire reason why Kirito isn't Island or tier 4 anymore.
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I don’t agree with tier 4 Kirito myself. That wasn’t what I was pushing for anyways although thanks for your input, glad to see some old supporters are showing interest.
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Would you also be willing to take a quick look at and evaluate this, @SomebodyData ? If not, I suppose that we should probably close this thread.
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Alright. I'm gonna make this brisk. But I also didn't read all of this because I'm at school
First off, what does "Underworld" really mean, and how much is "shake" anyways?
Obviously Underworld refers to the setting they are in, but that can mean anything, it's like destroying the world, but that can mean anything. Our story takes place in that weird empty triangle.... thing...? So Underworld could be that... or I'm stupid and it's just whatever the system creates when the squad explores… Even then
Also
The WoG thing, this is honestly very situation and story dependant. For example, let’s say Stan Lee says Captain America can destroy the solar system. Are you gonna take it seriously? For this we need to take the actual stakes into account- SAO (in this part of the story) is about a piece of garbage becoming a king to rule over a weird triangle country thing for 200 years to keep at peace or smth. Does “country wide peace” ever require the ability to shake the entire planet? What can the Queen on England do that too? When was the verse ever about saving the world from a threat that can cause these massive earthquakes? In addition, it’ll kinda look bad if people ask “oh yeah why is Kirito X Tier”, and you respond “oh cuz the author said so”, and they go “oh, on where?”, and then you say “on Twitter”, yeah, that could be valid but it’s gonna make your argument look weak, as suppose to… seeing a feat actually happen, or have the story within itself tell you it happened for absolute sure Well, that’d make me a hypocrite considering my own verse very very soon (I am trying my best to stop a certain monstrosity from existing), but I think this still needs to be considered. WoG is something I typically agree with, but considering the verse and controversialness of this, I don’t know if the same WoG rules (on a personal level) can really apply.
First off, what does "Underworld" really mean, and how much is "shake" anyways?
Obviously Underworld refers to the setting they are in, but that can mean anything, it's like destroying the world, but that can mean anything. Our story takes place in that weird empty triangle.... thing...? So Underworld could be that... or I'm stupid and it's just whatever the system creates when the squad explores… Even then
I understand you say that this is a “possibly”, but space doesn’t vibrate (actually who am i kidding i don’t know quantum physics), but this is done with a mind system… thing? What does that even mean? In addition, in that same line, Reki said “some felt it”…. Some? Why not all? Isn’t everyone concentrated in that triangle thing? They should all be able to feel it if that’s the case, especially if the battles take place in that or above that area. The fact that Reki only said “some” is a strange word choice, in addition to from what I recall, tired of this whole powerscale thing (seriously guys leave him alone) and could possibly just want to get the guy outta here. Also, if you think Incarnation did it, it’s also odd. It works off belief or what a person wants right? Why would Kirito want to shake the world, especially when he’s king and doesn’t want his people to die? Is he that much of an arrogant piece of garbage just to demonstrate how strong he is? Actually, I don’t know, he’s a piece of work anyways and probably would do that, I can see him being a genocidal maniac trying to show off how "cool" he is. This feat literally has to be an accident, otherwise Kirito would be purposefully wanting to hurt people around him. Are you really going to upgrade him at the cost of his morality- even though clearly he’s supposed to be the “protagonist”? Not that he is one.
Also
The WoG thing, this is honestly very situation and story dependant. For example, let’s say Stan Lee says Captain America can destroy the solar system. Are you gonna take it seriously? For this we need to take the actual stakes into account- SAO (in this part of the story) is about a piece of garbage becoming a king to rule over a weird triangle country thing for 200 years to keep at peace or smth. Does “country wide peace” ever require the ability to shake the entire planet? What can the Queen on England do that too? When was the verse ever about saving the world from a threat that can cause these massive earthquakes? In addition, it’ll kinda look bad if people ask “oh yeah why is Kirito X Tier”, and you respond “oh cuz the author said so”, and they go “oh, on where?”, and then you say “on Twitter”, yeah, that could be valid but it’s gonna make your argument look weak, as suppose to… seeing a feat actually happen, or have the story within itself tell you it happened for absolute sure Well, that’d make me a hypocrite considering my own verse very very soon (I am trying my best to stop a certain monstrosity from existing), but I think this still needs to be considered. WoG is something I typically agree with, but considering the verse and controversialness of this, I don’t know if the same WoG rules (on a personal level) can really apply.
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Duuuuuuuuuuude what? Not to be rude but that made 0 ******* sense and was mainly just you bashing on Kirito.
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this entire reply literally just feels like you're spiting him lol. I don't even know where to begin with this one
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but I'll try and rephrase
Basically I don't quite understand what would shaking the Underworld actually mean in terms of size, and of course we'd need to know how much shaking which would obviously mean a higher or lower result
The whole Reki statement thing feels like him trying to satisfy us power scalers so we can finally shut up. And the whole thing of the "mind system" to explain the shaking is just really weird, and I don't think it can be equated to actual physical strength
For the Incarnation causing the shaking, basically I'm trying to argue that Incarnation functions off of belief and what person wants, shaking the planet would obviously be a very bad thing for the life that exists on it and Kirito, as the supposed good guy wouldn't want that. So none of this really makes sense
For WoG, just know that it's a case by case basis whether it should be used or not, while I typically agree with it, in this case SAO is like, consistently meant to be a relatively lower scale in terms of its conflict from what I understand (like we had an arc around 9-C guns, yes they're seperste games but it's hard to believe they aren't connected). It's like saying that Jotaro can destroy the solar system because Araki said so and his Stand is the strongest stand
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i deeply apologize for lack of input. Been swarmed by assignments. Still waiting on my translators for reki's statements regarding the shaking
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in that regard, I mean actually breaking down the intention of the statement and not just a blanket translation
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That is what I have provided. A translator won't be able to provide you an "intention" for a single line when they don't have the context that's been presented over the course of 10 books.
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now to be fair im not denying your provided translations. i talked to arc about this a while back and asked about checking the books as well. Hes been very busy with school. If he cannot provide a translation check then sure i would yours would be the one to go with.
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I suppose that we can wait until tomorrow or the day after that. Somebody should preferably remind me to close this thread after that.
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