Possible Dragonball upgrades

[Z's_Universe]

So there's a couple of things that I want to discuss so I'll just go in order from least to most prevelant

The first is the rating for android 18, she currently sits at high 4-C. however in the tournament she is shown to be a considerable threat to Tupper, with him even mentioning that she kinda scares him (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQn8VpCeL0A). on top of this she is also capable of terrifying the supreme kai. in Goku's profile he is rated at large star+ because of this. To add to that Tupper is rated under tier 4B. The change for this that I propose is either change the rating for 18 and anyone who scales (Ribrianne, cocotte, etc.) to be increased to a 4B rating for 18 being a threat to Tupper. if that is not accepted than another option could be simply downgrade Tupper to high 4-C+ for scaling to 18. With the other characters I mentioned being slightly upgraded to high 4C+.

Lifing Strength Upgrade, This one is rather simple, in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbqWiZNbNdo) he calculates how much Goku is lifting on king kai's planet and comes to the conclusion that he is lifting 36,820 tons. Now, this was before he became a super saiyan god so the key for DBS Goku should be at least class M, higher with transformations. this is literally the only somewhat decent lifting feat that we can actually calculate for him so I thought it would be nice to have something under the lifting strength category other than "unknown."

 

[ChemistKyle89]

You could lowball estimate Goku's DBZ strength based on him holding the cube of Kachin that breaks the Z-Sword. Kachin is at least as dense as Osmium (22,590 kg/m^3) x 64 m^3 = 1,445,760 kg (1.45x10^6) in base form. I assume the gravity of the Sacred World of the Kais is normal Earth gravity since Hercule can withstand it.

Super Saiyan (x50) = 72,288,000 kg (7.23x10^7)

Super Saiyan 2 (x2) = 144,576,000 kg (1.45x10^8)

Super Saiyan 3 (x4) = 578,304,000 kg (5.78x10^8)

Yes, I think we can confirm Goku is Class M or higher Lifting Strength.

 

[TataHakai]

You could lowball estimate Goku's DBZ strength based on him holding the cube of Kachin that breaks the Z-Sword. Kachin is at least as dense as Osmium (22,590 kg/m^3) x 64 m^3 = 1,445,760 kg (1.45x10^6) in base form. I assume the gravity of the Sacred World of the Kais is normal Earth gravity since Hercule can withstand it.
Super Saiyan (x50) = 72,288,000 kg (7.23x10^7)

Super Saiyan 2 (x2) = 144,576,000 kg (1.45x10^8)

Super Saiyan 3 (x4) = 578,304,000 kg (5.78x10^8)

Yes, I think we can confirm Goku is Class M or higher Lifting Strength.

Where are you getting that Kachin is as dense as Osmium?

 

[Z's_Universe]

He's saying that because Katchin is noted as being the densest material in universe 7.

 

[TataHakai]

He's saying that because Katchin is noted as being the densest material in universe 7.

I don't recall this being stated, i'm pretty sure the statement was that it was the toughest not densest

 

[ChemistKyle89]

Vegeta does one-handed handstand pushups in 400G in base form. He weighs 56 kg. He's lifting 22,400 kg (2.24x10^4) with one hand, which implies he can twice as much (4.48x10^4 kg) with both hands. Multiply that by 50 for Super Saiyan = 2.24x10^6 kg. Double that for SS2 = 4.48x10^6 kg. Both of those numbers are Class M (10^6 to 10^9 kg).

Of course, he did that back when he was training to become a Super Saiyan to begin with, between the Future Trunks Saga and the Androids Saga.

 

[Z's_Universe]

He's saying that because Katchin is noted as being the densest material in universe 7.

I don't recall this being stated, i'm pretty sure the statement was that it was the toughest not densest

you're right, It's mentioned to be the strongest material in the universe. Grand priest also mention that Katchi Katchin is stronger than regular Katchin, meaning it is the most durable. however density and durability usually go hand in hand. in this case it seems that is what they were going for since Goku is shown genuinely struggling to lift it in the manga.

 

[Z's_Universe]

Honestly I don't want this to derail. Katchin is hard to quantify, is it the strongest? The densest? Do those two things correlate to each other? My point woth this thread was to give Goku a solid rating for lifting strength. The calc in the video literally makes one assumption, he's lifting steel, which makes perfect sence. I'm tired of seeing an unknown for his lifting strength, as that would imply we don't have any numbers for him, which we do.

 

[ChemistKyle89]

The calc for Vegeta is good for the Android Saga and made with no assumptions.

If we can use E = MC^2, we could lowball Trunk's strength from when he catch's Frieza's Supernova.

 

[Purgy]

Are the Super Saiyan multipliers even accepted here?

There's also the fact that Toriyama literally said in an interview that he intended it to be a 10x Multiplier and he also said that the Daizenshuu 7 databook saying it's a 50x Multiplier was an exaggeration.

 

[ChemistKyle89]

Any word on the E = MC^2 thing?

Also, Toriyama doesn't understand basic math. He made Goku go from Solar System to Universal simply by gaining SSG (which is a multiplication factor of somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^35...and people complain about Super Saiyan being 50x).

 

[Purgy]

SSG is irrelevant here.

You're using the 50x multiplier for Vegeta's lifting strength when I'm pretty sure that multiplier isn't accepted here and for good reason, because it's wrong.

 

[ChemistKyle89]

Well, can we at least make Vegeta at least Class 50? Surely it's impossible to argue that one, and it's certainly better than Unknown.

 

[Purgy]

From looking at your calc, that would make sense.

But I'm not a calc member nor somebody with authority so probably best to get other opinions.

 

[ChemistKyle89]

I would like to know the answer to the E=MC^2 question. If that applies, it makes their strength far more considerable. Personally, I have doubts about someone being able to have a Striking Strength rated at Solar System, but to only lift 49.28 tons.

We see Goku working out with 8 tons then he goes over the max at 40 tons but once he goes Super Saiyan it becomes effortless for him again...so there is some multiplication factor there somewhere. If that scene takes place on King Kai's planet, that's multiplied by 10 because of the gravity. I don't think it's ever stated what the gravity of Grand Kai's planet is, so we can't make assumptions there.

If we can take Goku's feat as "canon", then we can at least apply a 5x multiplier for SS, so Vegeta would rate at least 246.4 tons or 2.24x10^5 kg.

 

[Z's_Universe]

I would like to know the answer to the E=MC^2 question. If that applies, it makes their strength far more considerable. Personally, I have doubts about someone being able to have a Striking Strength rated at Solar System, but to only lift 49.28 tons.

We see Goku working out with 8 tons then he goes over the max at 40 tons but once he goes Super Saiyan it becomes effortless for him again...so there is some multiplication factor there somewhere. If that scene takes place on King Kai's planet, that's multiplied by 10 because of the gravity. I don't think it's ever stated what the gravity of Grand Kai's planet is, so we can't make assumptions there.

If we can take Goku's feat as "canon", then we can at least apply a 5x multiplier for SS, so Vegeta would rate at least 246.4 tons or 2.24x10^5 kg.

To answer that question, Trunks did not catch Frieza's supernova in the manga. That only happened in the anine which is definitely not usable here. As for the super saiyan multiplier, it's not wrong. Toriyama may have intended for it to be times 10, but he likely didn't have a choice but to make it higher. Seriously we know the kaioken is a direct multiplier for strength and that multiplier is used. If the super saiyan multiplier was only 10 than the kaioken would be even stronger than super saiyan, which is obviously false. I'm also waiting for someone with authority to check the original calc mentioned in the video as that is how this whole thing started.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Are the Super Saiyan multipliers even accepted here?

SS1 is considered to be >40x on this site. Otherwise we don't accept the x2 and x4 statements for SS2/SS3.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

It's considered as such due to Goku's X20 Kamehameha hurting 50% Frieza, and Super Saiyan Goku and 100% Frieza being comparable (meaning Super Saiyan is logically in excess of a 40x increase.)

Super Saiyan 2 being 2x Super Saiyan isn't that crazy to claim, considering it seems to surpass Ultra Super Saiyan, which surpasses Ascended Super Saiyan and the gap presented in-universe is a massive stomp. Not to mention 50% SS2 Gohan holding out against Super Perfect Cell (when Perfect Cell stomped SS Gohan) would, certainly, indicate that the gap between SS2 and SS1 is in excess of 2x.

Anything else, beyond that, is a matter of debate. It's fairly acceptable to claim Blue is in excess of 40x God, due to Blue being Super Saiyan stacked on God but the power of God relative to 3, or 3 relative to 2 is all unquantifiable.

 

[Z's_Universe]

It's considered as such due to Goku's X20 Kamehameha hurting 50% Frieza, and Super Saiyan Goku and 100% Frieza being comparable (meaning Super Saiyan is logically in excess of a 40x increase.)

Super Saiyan 2 being 2x Super Saiyan isn't that crazy to claim, considering it seems to surpass Ultra Super Saiyan, which surpasses Ascended Super Saiyan and the gap presented in-universe is a massive stomp. Not to mention 50% SS2 Gohan holding out against Super Perfect Cell (when Perfect Cell stomped SS Gohan) would, certainly, indicate that the gap between SS2 and SS1 is in excess of 2x.

Anything else, beyond that, is a matter of debate. It's fairly acceptable to claim Blue is in excess of 40x God, due to Blue being Super Saiyan stacked on God but the power of God relative to 3, or 3 relative to 2 is all unquantifiable.

This^, Thank you for clearing that up. However we've gone off topic again, this isn't about the super saiyan multipliers. This is about the calcuable feats we have for Goku's lifting strength. Also it's about possible upgrades for a number of characters in dragon ball super.

 

[ChemistKyle89]

I've only watched the anime. I don't read the manga, nor have I watched Super...since it got ridiculous quick. The supernova feat could totally apply to the anime tab though if E = MC^2 applies (there's certainly a lot of tabs).

On a side note, what about Piccolo lifting and exploding pyramid (training to fight Nappa and Vegeta) and Frieza lifting a large mass and tossing it (Goku vs Frieza). We could try to ballpark a telekinetic lifting strength, though I wonder how telekinesis relates to Ki since a lot of characters have shown they're able to use it (Blue, Chiaotzu, Goku, Ginyu, Guldo, Cell, etc.).

If it is Ki related, then it should apply to their straight up lifting strength like it gets applied to Superman.

 

[Z's_Universe]

I've only watched the anime. I don't read the manga, nor have I watched Super...since it got ridiculous quick. The supernova feat could totally apply to the anime tab though if E = MC^2 applies (there's certainly a lot of tabs).

On a side note, what about Piccolo lifting and exploding pyramid (training to fight Nappa and Vegeta) and Frieza lifting a large mass and tossing it (Goku vs Frieza). We could try to ballpark a telekinetic lifting strength, though I wonder how telekinesis relates to Ki since a lot of characters have shown they're able to use it (Blue, Chiaotzu, Goku, Ginyu, Guldo, Cell, etc.).

If it is Ki related, then it should apply to their straight up lifting strength like it gets applied to Superman.

All of the feats you just mentioned are from the anime, the pyramid and mountain feat are already used for the anime profiles. However you could start a thread regarding the E=MC^2 question. It could lead to an upgrade in the anime verse if accepted.

 

[Purgy]

It's considered as such due to Goku's X20 Kamehameha hurting 50% Frieza, and Super Saiyan Goku and 100% Frieza being comparable (meaning Super Saiyan is logically in excess of a 40x increase.)

But 50% and 100% Frieza's power level comes from the same Daizenshuu that says SSJ is a 50x multiplier, so if one is wrong why aren't they both considered wrong?

 

[ChemistKyle89]

Apparently it's a no go on the lifting strength, since Toriyama can't stay consistent and has no basic understanding of math. That's fine, I'll just pretend it says something appropriate.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

But 50% and 100% Frieza's power level comes from the same Daizenshuu that says SSJ is a 50x multiplier, so if one is wrong why aren't they both considered wrong?

Power Level has nothing to do with this, though. Frieza outright states he is using 50% of his power when he is fighting Goku, later says he used 70% (against Super Saiyan) then powers up to 100%.

X20 Kamehameha hurt 50% Frieza considerably, albeit Frieza managed to block it out with one hand.

If X20 hurts 50% Frieza, and Super Saiyan has an edge over 100% Frieza then basic logic dictates that Super Saiyan must be >40x.

 

[Z's_Universe]

Apparently it's a no go on the lifting strength, since Toriyama can't stay consistent and has no basic understanding of math. That's fine, I'll just pretend it says something appropriate.

Who told you it's a no go?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Unless there was evidence that they weren't using their ki to amp their stats, its going to lead to issues.

• Kid Goku's boulder feat is better than everything else in the manga as far as I remember

• Teen Goku struggled with lifting Giant Piccolo who wouldn't really weighs less than the above boulder

• Post-Saiyan Saga Goku had to train and get massive power boosts for a week straight to handle 100gs, which is at best a 6.3 ton feat

• Vegeta had to do the same to handle 300gs, which was noted to be impossible to Bulma's dad

• Buu Saga Goku couldn't even move after lifting 40 tons and had to go SS1 in order to train

Its just massively inconsistent.

 

[Z's_Universe]

Unless there was evidence that they weren't using their ki to amp their stats, its going to lead to issues.

If that's the case than why does Kid Goku have stats for his lifting strength? Since you pointed out inconsistencies from that point as well shouldn't his be unknown as well? Honestly that claim is ridiculous to me, we have provable, calculable numbers for him. We have enough to have our own consistency, between the above calcs for vegeta and the calc in the video. Not to mention in super when Hercule punches Goku he picks up his tractor like it was nothing, which tend to weigh 9.5 tons. Surely that should be consistent enough for us to put an actual number to his strength.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Personally I think we should just use the gravity numbers and the 40 ton feat, since those would be without ki amps. Then just put "higher with ki" or something.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Goku was lifting massive castle towers and throwing gigantic boulders as a Great Ape ever since before he could even control his ki. That's far higher than just 40 tons

 

[Z's_Universe]

Personally I think we should just use the gravity numbers and the 40 ton feat, since those would be without ki amps. Then just put "higher with ki" or something.

I think that would be good, However I think we could say at least class M with Ki, since we already have a couple of numbers for class M ki amped Characters.

 

[Qawsedf234]

That's the thing. If he couldn't control his ki, how do we know that he wasn't amping himself when lifting the castle towers?

 

[ChemistKyle89]

Apparently it's a no go on the lifting strength, since Toriyama can't stay consistent and has no basic understanding of math. That's fine, I'll just pretend it says something appropriate.

Who told you it's a no go?

Antvasima.

I also asked why we couldn't use E = MC^2 to estimate their lifting strength since we know their attack potency and the fact they can amp their strength with their Ki.

For example, we know Android 18 generates infinite Star Level energy (if we assume avg Star Level = 1.88E+42 J). Divide this by C^2 = 2.09E+25 kg, meaning she should be Class Y.

Also, I've come to the conclusion that Master Roshi being a moon buster is easily plausible, since they've ruled Piccolo was a planet buster when he blew it up. The Kamehameha focuses and amplifies your effective power level (Goku vs Raditz - Goku's PL was 416 but his Kamehameha was 924, an increase of 2.22x). If Max Roshi could focus his Ki by the same factor, his PL, being either 139 or 180, would make his Kamehameha's effective PL = 308.74 - 399.81. Piccolo casually busted the moon while wearing weights (PL 322). Since this was a random, instant Ki attack, this implies there was no amplification, so the attack was effectively PL 322.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I also asked why we couldn't use E = MC^2 to estimate their lifting strength since we know their attack potency and the fact they can amp their strength with their Ki.

Because lifting strength in fiction is very rarely tied to power or AP. Unless they have feats rated at that level, you can't backscale energy to it.

 

[Akreious]

Unless there was evidence that they weren't using their ki to amp their stats, its going to lead to issues.

• Kid Goku's boulder feat is better than everything else in the manga as far as I remember

• Teen Goku struggled with lifting Giant Piccolo who wouldn't really weighs less than the above boulder

• Post-Saiyan Saga Goku had to train and get massive power boosts for a week straight to handle 100gs, which is at best a 6.3 ton feat

• Vegeta had to do the same to handle 300gs, which was noted to be impossible to Bulma's dad

• Buu Saga Goku couldn't even move after lifting 40 tons and had to go SS1 in order to train

Its just massively inconsistent.

Teen Goku struggling to lift Piccolo fails to take into account how Piccolo was amping himself with his own Ki and also pushing down on Goku; Goku wasn't dead lifting Piccolo with no resistance.

Handling Gravity is MASSIVELY different from sheer lifting strength. A Weight Lifter isn't going to be as trained as a skinny but trained Astronaught. There's also blood vessels, veins, arteries, etc. that go completely untrained normally that wouldn't handle higher gravity levels even if your physical structure absolutely can.

Again, Gravity involves a lot more than just sheer deadlifting weight. The science behind dead lifting and handling gravity is insane.

That Buu Saga 40 tons thing is a hilariously massive outlier since forever, not sure why the heck you brought that up.

 

[ChemistKyle89]

I don't see why it doesn't apply. In the anime, SS Trunks catches Frieza's Supernova (which he was going to use to blow up Earth, so it should have an AP or energy at least equal to the gravitational binding energy of Earth and should be related to a mass as defined by E = MC^2). Plug & Chug M = 2.487E+32 J / C^2 = 2.77E+15 kg. This was one handed, so double it to 5.53E+15 kg. Both these numbers give us an effortless lifting strength of Class T.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It just doesn't apply. Ki does not behave like normal energy and if you did backscale it you would get numbers billions of times higher than what their actual feats are. There's just no solid evidence for it.

 

[ChemistKyle89]

I don't see how it's that different from telekinesis, especially since anime Piccolo and Frieza have TK feats as well. I assume their form of TK is focusing and projecting their Ki externally. 99% of Superman's feats rely on his TK to keep things together. And is Ki so different than Chakra? Sakura has a lifting strength of at least Class G and she's very weak compared to DBZ characters. You can't tell me they don't function similarly either. They use Ki/Chakra to reinforce their bodies to accomplish their feats.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Currently we scale their TK to what they have actually lifted rather than a hypothetical that places them thousands, if not millions, of times better than any shown feat.

Sakura has a lifting strength of at least Class G and she's very weak compared to DBZ characters

Sakura has feats/scaling that place her that high. DB characters have neither

 

[ChemistKyle89]

We'll agree to disagree then. Simple as that.

 

[Antvasima]

Because lifting strength in fiction is very rarely tied to power or AP. Unless they have feats rated at that level, you can't backscale energy to it.

This is correct, yes. Thank you for helping out.