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Pontos vs Arceus (2-C)

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FateAlbane

FateAlbane

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Now that this guy has risen to 2-C heights, we can finally have something like this.

Pontos 12-24f58c0
Come at me, Llama God.

Arceus.full.1547748
By the end of this you won't be Pontos. You'll be Point Level.

Speed is equalized.
(I'd say no summoning for one on one buut since they're both extremely powerful 2-C compared to Low 2-C, summoning will probably be moot anyways).

Other than that, anything goes. Who will emerge victorious?
 
So arceus has been upgraded? When did that happen? As for this match up gonna listen to what matt has to say first about how pontos wins before deciding on either, but from what i can see arceus is gonna have a hard tme putting down pontos because of his low godly regen and resurrection.
 
Firstly, Pontos can control the Universe in all it's components, Reality Warping, manipulating Space-Time, Entropy, Creation Universes at will, controlling the elements, light and darkness, matter in a Quantic level, everything that makes a universe the universe. He also has Soul Manipulation, and can obliterate souls.

Pontos is also Acausal and can manipulate Causality on a level that overwrites the Space-Time Continuum itself. And he can control Fate. He is the Primordial God who sways the currents of time and history, and manipulates fate to his whim.

Add in that his attacks can also nullify Low to Mid-Godly Regen scaling from Capricorn Shura kiling a guy who regenerated from absolutely nothing, and Arceus is hit with a tsunami he can't handle.
 
Pontos is a higher-end 2-C anyways, isn't he?
 
@Matt. Most of those things Arceus does too. The only thing that isn't there is the fate manipulation (and entropy). And given what tsunamis are made of, they are easily negated by plates.

@Prom. It seems like they're kinda equal. They're scaled from being immensely above other Low 2-Cs.
 
@Prom

Yes.

Even the absolute weakest Titan is Low 2-C at full power, and Pontos is way stronger than even the most powerful Titans (Aside from Cronus), Hyperion and Coeus, who can fodderize lesser Titans and the former scales to Apollo (Hyperion was the former Sun God), who himself is so stronger than Athena (Who is 2-C), that she calls her power "Insignificant" compared to Apollo's.
 
Well arceus can do most of what you said there like reality warping and soul manipulation, pretty sure arceus is acusal as well so causality manipulation isn't doing anything here i think, manipulating time history and fate though might be useful, and pontos seems to have beter durability negating techniques and being slightly higher on the 2-C scale maybe, so leaning towards him.
 
His Reality Warping powers and Conceptual Powers are nothing that any user of Eskatos Dunamis can't do, and that's not mentioning the Fate Powers, the Durability Negation, and the higher level of Causality Manipulation and Space-Time powers. Plus the disparity in sheer Attack Potency.
 
It doesn't seem like a good portion of SS characters have conceptual manipulation on their profile, but Arceus' isn't that good, so those probably cancel out. Same with reality warping. Fate powers would be canceled by time, as they're very interrelated. Durability negation is nothing special as it relies on atoms, which Arceus one casually created, and two, is nothing special for a tier two. Higher level of causality, maybe. Arceus is scaled from fodderizing Dialga in time abilities, who fodderizes Celebi in time abilities, who has the causality manipulation, so they're probably equal. But acausal from both sides negates that. Though spacetime powers I'd definitely give to the llama, given that he casually created their entire concepts, so I highly doubt that Pontos has that edge. AP, I would say that Pontos does have that edge, but not by as much as you're making it seem. Arceus is super above the trio combined. Any member of the trio is so casually Low 2-C that their mere breath stabilizes reality. And that's not even counting the many autodefenses Arceus has.

Granted, I haven't voted yet.
 
Fate manip being canceled by time manip doesn't seem legit.

And that's coming from someone who is obsessed with Fate and anything related to it. Sooo... ovo

Other than that, not taking part on anything here yet.
 
Not when the user happens to have the ability in such a scale that he can Fate Manipulate Acausals.
 
@Howard

There's a lot wrong with your assumptions.

Firstly, Reality Warping, Fate Manipulation and Time Manipulation are not mere powers that can cancel each other out. We have to analyse their scale. And Pontos' powers are on a level that fodderizes 2-Cs who fodderize other 2-Cs.

Pontos' durability negation doesn't depend on atoms, as Shura can kill beings who don't possess souls and regenerate from absolutely nothing. Meaning that Mid-Godly Regen is needed to counter Pontos' attacks.

Eskatos Dunamis is literally the power of creating universes out of nothing, without conservation of energy, and controlling them in that totality, so Arceus' conceptual and space-time powers are nothing special.

Even the most baseline Titan can create universes with utmost ease. It's literally their power.
 
I'd argue Arceus is. His feat seems akin to something that Apollo would do, and Apollo is fodder to Pontos.

Also, Pontos' profile is very outdated, I should work on it some.
 
I'll concede for the first point, but that argument isn't entirely without fault itself. You're implying that because there's a hierarchy in SS (A>>B>>C, and C is 2-C), then unless a franchise has a hierarchy of similarity, then A is above whatever it faces.

That also isn't entirely without fault. For one, why does Shura doing something mean Pontos can? I'm not saying that Arceus has Mewtwo's powers because he's the god of the verse. Secondly, it means that Mid-Godly Regen is what's needed to come back from Pontos' attack. Not that it's needed to counter. If said attack killed Arceus, than sure, Arceus wouldn't come back. Not that it would matter as if Pontos killed Arceus without said thing, Arceus wouldn't come back because his regen is only low.

Concept of Willpower, Emotion, and Knowledge would still be effective (Arceus can just make Pontos just lose the will to attack Arceus, or forget to use his powers, or be too sad to attack. A Nigh-Omniscient can think of things like that, and it's well into his capability to do so), and the exact same thing you're saying applies to you too, because that's what any member of the Trio can do casually. Which addresses your last point. Which is that the titans creating universe with utmost ease is still nothing to creating universes with your heartbeat.
 
I dont see how haxes like Soul and Fate Manipulation are anything special here. Other than what Cal brought up Arceus has both. Hell he can use Fate Manipulation just by the mere Lucky Chant move.

In addition, where is this "Pontos has a slight AP edge" coming from? Due to recent upgrades Arceus in just his base form is 2-C, so he in base is as strong as his previous Unsealed Form.

Im gonna side with Arceus due to reasons above.
 
Firstly, that's not my point. Arceus is at 2-C for being vastly superior and fodderizing casual Low 2-Cs. Meanwhile, in Saint Seiya's case, there are beings who are ALREADY 2-C, capable of sustaining attacks and briefly matching blows with those who sustain 3 universes through their mind. That one is Athena. Athena herself is so outclassed by Apollo that she calls her power "Insignificant before his", and is absolutely terrified of his casual might. The Titan Hyperion scales to Apollo, and Hyperion is also seem as a worthless fodder to Pontos. Pontos is about as high on the 2-C scale as you can be.

No, the argument is fully reasonable. You show little understanding of Saint Seiya on suggesting that Shura can do things Pontos can't. All power in Saint Seiya comes from Cosmos, and abilities and levels of strength and speed are unlocked through Senses and Higher level of Cosmos. Pontos is a primordial God, with the access to the greatest levels of sheer Cosmos that are available. Also, if Pontos obliterated Arceus' arm on a Mid-Godly level, would his healing reform it?

Regardless of what language or display you wanna argue, absolute casual, effortless creation of universes is equal. And those are not my main point, my point is that Arceus is at a level of strength that's completely ridiculous and meaningless for Pontos.
 
@Professor There's no sign of Fate Manip to be seen for Arceus and having one move called Lucky Chant doesn't give him Fate Manip since what the move does has nothing to do with Fate.

And even if it had, said application wouldn't put it anywhere near the level Pontos has, so people should really consider a little more on this Fate point.

...Furthermore, having an ability listed on profile doesn't equal the character insta-having all of its applications. I wasn't even planning on debating much, but comparing Lucky Chant to Pontos' Fate Manip is too much.
 
Well to be fair Casual Low 2-Cs are basically on the ladder of 2-C, just not outright in the higher tier.

And don't we kinda ignore the "higher cosmos = hax negating" thing? Its the exact same reason why we dont allow DB characters to resist hax they've never shown resisting due to having higher KI.
 
That makes sense.

I don't understand Saint Seiya. The series is very hard to come by, and if it weren't for here, I probably wouldn't have heard of it. You can't blame me for that. And still. Here's an example. All abilities in Dragon Ball are unlocked through Ki. Does that mean that Beerus knows the Vice Shout? Finally about the arm, I don't know. Given that it's a matter of cells. If I could regenerate my arm, but I don't have atomic level Regenerationn, and my arm is atomized by say, Goku, then I can still grow my arm back, as the cells from my stub will divide and create a new arm. This may be different. Regardless, doesn't matter as Arceus supposedly has 1000 arms and doesn't have that kind of Regenerationn.

I'll concede on a matter of pure AP, but AP doesn't matter on a tier 2 level.
 
@ProfessorKukui

Hax Negation in DB isn't a thing. There's one statement from it on the secondary canon manga, and numerous contradicting it.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Hax Negation in DB isn't a thing. There's one statement from it on the secondary canon manga, and numerous contradicting it.
Click to expand...
Wasn't the reason buu's candy beam didn't completely effect Vegito because he was just to strong just like Hit's time stop on Goku? I'm not saying that enough for confirmation(not even close) but they seem to go that route. Anyway this Battle isn't even about Dragonball.
 
Pontos for the reasons Matt has stated and that once again Arceus has never really used it's high end hax combat wise and has only fought it's own creations which everyone knows it has domain over and can recreate so feat wise it isn't that impressive. Honestly Arceus lacks a combat record for the scale it is put up against(It beats Low 2-Cs while Pontos beats 2-Cs).
 
How is beating it's own creations not that impressive? It's still beating Tier 2 Mon with absolute ease. And they're not just Low 2-C's they're very casual ones. Their practically on the level of 2-C with this upgrade.

And to be quite fair, saying his haz isn't good because it's never been that good in combat.....isn't that kind of unfair tbh? Arceus is the god tier of the verse and no one in Pokemon is even remotely close to being a challenge for him. Not even the creation trio who got curbed. Without lolgamemechanics getting in the mix we'd need a lot of PIS/CIS to see Arceus be in combat to the point where he'd use his hax offensively. But without anything bringing him to that point, fighting anything that comes his way is casual for him, so he doesn't have a REAL chance in using any ability offensively without...well....accidentally destroying everything.

I'm not saying his hax is perfectly combat-suited don't get me wrong. I'm only saying it's not fair to say it's not suited for combat that much when he's the god tier and thus does everything casual without breaking a sweat.
 
So I'm gonna say this. Sadly Arceus doesn't have his full hax here with his plates so that kinda leaves him vulnerable. However, from a hax point. Both seem to completely counter each other perfectly fine leaving this a battle of power in which Pontos wins due to this being Sealed Arceus. However, does Arceus learn Heal Block? If so then that may help. If not then he isn't getting by Low-Godly Regen, sadly. However, Pontos won't win without a fight. But to my dismay Pontos wins Extremely High Diff. Unless someone can prove otherwise.

Me: Arceus maybe you should unseal yourself.

Arceus: Can't OP won't let me.

Pontos: Well sucks to be you. I ain't getting curbstomped today. lololololololol

Arceus: ......Jerk.....

EDIT: Also how do we handle Resurrection? Do we count Death Clause for it or not?
 
@ProfessorKukui4Life

Arceus' hax and Fate Manipulation are nowhere near on the level of Pontos'.

Furthermore, Arceus not only fodderized his own creations, but said creations are merely High-End Low 2-Cs. Pontos fodderizes 2-Cs who fodderize 2-Cs.

Their AP and Hax are not comparable.
 
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