Pontos vs Arceus (2-C)

[The_Everlasting]

"Athena herself is so outclassed by Apollo that she calls her power "Insignificant before his", and is absolutely terrified of his casual might. The Titan Hyperion scales to Apollo, and Hyperion is also seem as a worthless fodder to Pontos."

I thought SS Apollo wasn't canon (Well, at least, his feats aren't).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The movie was originally canon, but was erased from continuity. Apollo being >>>>> Athena can still be taken.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Pretty sure creating the actual concepts beats Pontos's level of hax. Except Fate Manipulation of course. And forgive my earlier comment, I meant to say Probability Manipulation, not Fate.

High End Low 2-C is practically a solid 2-C, especially in the trios case so the matter of AP does not matter that much. Also if what you say about Pontos is true, then Pontos needs (or rather should) be upgraded to like "At Least 2-C".

If anything, its like what Dragon brought up. Pontos would win but with extreme difficulty unless someone can bring in a game-changer for Arceus.

 

[LlamaGod1411]

"Come at me, LlamaGod"

Lol.

 

[Cropfist]

Pontos for reasons above.

 

[FateAlbane]

Counting the votes (Cal said he didn't vote yet, if anyone's wondering why his vote isn't here).

Pontos: 4 (Matthew Schroeder, Sage God Slayer, Dragon Masterxyz, Cropfist)

Arceus: 1 (ProfessorKukui4Life)

Inconclusive:

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Bumpy.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

Arceus mostly due to reasons above but I'll like to chime in.

Arceus seems to have the better variety in hax that's impressive on a tier 2 level. Most notably his Space-Time manipulation and destruction feats. The Creation Trio mere presence causes Space-Time to disintegrate. Arceus literally waking up shock a multiverse (granted that multiverse on had like 5 universes if I remember correctly).

Also two questions:

1. How does Arceus' plates work in battle, excluding game mechanics?

2. How does Low-Godly regen help against someone with existence erasure, concept creation/manipulation, Dimensional BFR?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Space-Time manipulation is crap tier for tier 2's, and pontos has that as well, shaking 5 universes isn't impressive when hades created and maintained 3 causally and pontos is far above hades.

1. Idk

2. Depends if said existence erasure can erase people who can regen from other realms/timelines, pontos can erase ppl too. Arceus doesn't tend to use said concept manipulation off the bat from what i have heard, and only known to have created concepts not destroy, though he should be able to do both, as for dimension BFR, useless when pontos can travel through dimensions.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

Space-Time manipulation is crap tier for tier 2's, and pontos has that as well, shaking 5 universes isn't impressive when hades created and maintained 3 causally and pontos is far above hades.

I'm confused here now? A tier full of characters manipulating Space-Time in some way, but completely destroying Space-Time is useless? Remember that Space-Time destruction is extremely useful in tier 2 unless you're High 2-A or immeasurable.

1. Idk

2. Depends if said existence erasure can erase people who can regen from other realms/timelines, pontos can erase ppl too. Arceus doesn't tend to use said concept manipulation off the bat from what i have heard, and only known to have created concepts not destroy, though he should be able to do both, as for dimension BFR, useless when pontos can travel through dimensions.

This isn't Hakai lol. Arceus completely erased the victim with existence erasure. Shouldn't the Creation Trio concept manipulation feats scale to Arceus? You know, since he's their creator. No Arceus' power literally sent the Creation Trio to the human world, which is lower-dimensional.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

By virtue of being tier 2 means the characters are able to destroy space-time, so that's useless, plus i remember something about a weaker saint seiya character being in a void or something after a universe was destroyed, which is pretty common for tier 2's anyway.

There are levels to erasing someone from existence: erasing someone from existence erasing all memories of them in the world and history, then something like that on a universal scale, then applying that to different timelines, erasing someone from multiple timelines, and then you have ppl who can erase people from all i have mentioned already and also from higher dimensions. Apparently arceus only erased some boulders, not exactly impressive.

Don't know, but i think arceus concept manipulation come from being the creator of the lake trio, who created the concept of will or something like that, so doesn't scale to creation trio.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Weaker Titans have powers of void / entropy / nothingness, so destroying a Space-Time Continuum doesn't do crap.

Existence Erasing is basic in Saint Seiya. Killing body and soul.

If Arceus has Conceptual Manipulation for creating the Verse, all Titans have Conceptual Manipulation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Depends on the level of it. Also how is Killing someones body and soul existence erasure?

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

By virtue of being tier 2 means the characters are able to destroy space-time, so that's useless, plus i remember something about a weaker saint seiya character being in a void or something after a universe was destroyed, which is pretty common for tier 2's anyway.

Not exactly, a character can become tier 2 by simply destroying/creating a Space-Time Continuum. Or fighting a supposedly tier 2 character. But destroying Space-Time to a point where there's nothing left but a void is impressive for tier 2.

There are levels to erasing someone from existence: erasing someone from existence erasing all memories of them in the world and history, then something like that on a universal scale, then applying that to different timelines, erasing someone from multiple timelines, and then you have ppl who can erase people from all i have mentioned already and also from higher dimensions. Apparently arceus only erased some boulders, not exactly impressive.

The Creation Trio erased Darkrai to the point that Dialga himself had to resurrect him. Also the Creation Trio can erase a universe with ease.

Don't know, but i think arceus concept manipulation come from being the creator of the lake trio, who created the concept of will or something like that, so doesn't scale to creation trio.

Arceus created the Lake Trio. I know this, but Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina has conceptual control over Time, Space, and Antimatter respectively.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Titans have control over viod and nothingness, creating a void means nothing here, these guys were born in a void.

Erased darkrai to what extent? Pontos can resurrect as well, did darkrai have low godly regen? If not it's not exactly notable, erasing a universe again not exactly notable titans can do that.

Didn't actually think about the implications of titans having created all the components of their universes, yea with that i think pontos wins this, cause of being a higher 2-C, fate manipulation, low godly regen, fate manipulation and existence erasure/durability negation.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

Titans have control over viod and nothingness, creating a void means nothing here, these guys were born in a void.

Living in a void =/= Being turned into nothingness

Also if they're generating from a void. That's would most likely be considered Creation. Or they would have Mid-Godly regen.

Erased darkrai to what extent? Pontos can resurrect as well, did darkrai have low godly regen? If not it's not exactly notable, erasing a universe again not exactly notable titans can do that.

No Darkrai doesn't have low-godly regen but I fail to see how that's relevant? I told you earlier that this form of existence erasure isn't just universal like a known overrated one. The Creation Trio existence destroying battle affected different universes.


Didn't actually think about the implications of titans having created all the components of their universes, yea with that i think pontos wins this, cause of being a higher 2-C, fate manipulation, low godly regen, fate manipulation and durability negation.

Ok your opinion, can't challenge.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Do you not get the part where the titans create and mantain their own universe and all it's components, and have control over entropy, void and nothingness? How exactly is arceus turning space-times into voids impressive compared to that?

I asked about darkrai cause unless darkrai had low godly regen and was erased and didn't come back, it's not impressive, pontos has low godly regen in addition to ressurection. And you still seem to not understand that erasing existence isn't impressive here, saint seiya characters have been shown to negate the regen of people who have lod godly regen, show me arceus doing something comparable.

Why am i talking about low godly regen? Cause with it it means that unless you been shown to be able to negate it, characters will keep regen from other realms, or as long as their consciousness remains.

And how exactly is a hourglasss shaking proof that their battle affected multiple timelines?

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

Do you not get the part where the titans create and mantain their own universe and all it's components, and have control over entropy, void and nothingness? How exactly is arceus turning space-times into voids impressive compared to that?

Ok? The Creation Trio has control over all the verse's universes and their components as well. Also you do realize you're essentially saying Void Manipulation is better than Void Manipulation. Right?

I asked about darkrai cause unless darkrai had low godly regen and was erased and didn't come back, it's not impressive, pontos has low godly regen in addition to ressurection. And you still seem to not understand that erasing existence isn't impressive here, saint seiya characters have been shown to negate the regen of people who have lod godly regen, show me arceus doing something comparable.

The Trio erases stuff it's in an universal+ scale. Their attacks causally destroy Space-Time simultaneously and reduces it to nothing but that's unimpressive? And remember that's not even Arceus, whose attacks are Multi-Universal.

How exactly does Low-Godly regen even counter being reduced to nothingness? Or how does he resurrect while already erased?

Not to mention the Creation Trio, the Lake Trio, and Arceus where created from nothing. But I'm not implying that Arceus has Mid-Godly regen or a resistance to existence erasure now am I.

And how exactly is a hourglasss shaking proof that their battle affected multiple timelines?

Dialga? Embodiment of Time? Hourglass? Being affected by his power in another universe?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You missed the argument by a landslide. Read the powerscaling until reaching Pontos. You are basically arguing that Arceus beats Pontos because Arceus can beat Tethys.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

You are the one that was somehow claiming that turning space-time into a viod is somehow impressive when pontus can do that too.

And you still don't get that erasing on a universe+ scale is unimpressive when even the weakest titan can do that.

Low godly regen means that even if you are erased in this universe, you can still come back as you exist in another one or another realm, i am asking for proof that arceus has erased people who exist in different realms.

And how exactly is being created from nothing somehow relevant to being able to regen from nothing? Also on pontos profile says he can destroy beings who can regen from nothing, so even if arceus could regen from nothing, pontos could still kill him.

Anyway i already casted my vote, replying any further seems like a waste of time, unless someone else brings up new reasons as to how arceus can win this.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

Tethys? I'm not sure what you're implying here sorry.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

All the feats you keep talking about the creation Trio and how Arceus stomps them is stuff even the absolute weakest Titan can do.


Com o verdadeiro poder dos grandes deuses... Com o poder que controla o mundo...

Translation:

With the true power of the great gods... With the power which controls the world...


O poder supremo que faz o universo expandir infinitamente. Essa é a fonte de nosso poder, os deuses. O Cosmo que só se permite ter aos deuses da destrui├º├úo: Eskatos Dunamis.

Translation:

The supreme power which makes the universe expand infinitely. This is the source of the power of us gods. The Cosmos allowed only to the gods of destruction: Eskatos Dunamis.


O poder de um deus é um mundo mesmo. Cada um dos Tit├ús tem um universo e um planeta que domina.

Translation:

The power of a god is the world itself. Each of the Titans has a universe and a planet he dominates.


E a fonte desse poder é a mesma que cria o mundo. Os deuses existem junto ao mundo.

Translation:

And the source of this power is the same that creates the world. The gods exist as one with the world.


Terra, água, vento, fogo, luz e escuridão. Demos esses seis elementos a essa espada... E por conter o poder dos elementos, cria o caos.

Translation:

Earth, water, wind, fire, light and darkness. We gave these six elements to this sword.... And because it contains the power of the elements, it creates chaos.


E esse poder do Caos é que d├í origem ao universo e é a fonte do poder dos deuses. Eskatos Dunamis!

Translation:

And this power of Chaos is what brings origin to the universe and is the source of the gods' power. Eskatos Dunamis!

In short, each unsealed Titan, even the absolute weakest of them, holds the power of a Big Bang, or of an infinitely expanding space-time continuum. This is evidence that all major God is at least Low 2-C.

The Hypermyth says:

The Big Will (Or Great Will, or even Divine Will), liberated by the Big Bang, collided with with fragments of the Universe, forming the stars that shine in the skies and the vacuum of the space in which we live.

With many humans being born on Earth, came those who were capable of awakening the Big Will. If the manifestation of Cosmos happens through the Seventh Sense, then it can be said that the Big Will is the Super Sense that is far higher than all others.

The 9th Sense is the power of the Big Bang which created the universe.

^ See all of that. This is exactly the type of stuff you keep describing. Creation of entire universes and all their components out of nothingness, absolute control over the universe and all it entails, oneness with the universe, manipulation of the formless chaotic void that existed before the universe, all done with ease.

This applies to the absolute weakest Titan.

Above the weaker ones like most of the Titanides, we have the average strong Titans, like Crius, Iapetus, Themis and Oceanus, who are all 2-C. Beyond them we have God of Destruction Iapetus, who is vastly stronger than his regular self. Above even that we have some of the strongest Titans, such as Mnemosyne, Coeus (Who has the power of Keraunos which allows him to one-shot all the previously mentioned Titans), and Hyperion (The Sun Titan who even while sealed qualifies for Low 2-C).

Pontos > All of those combined.

 

[KuuIchigo]

Oh boy. Another Pokemon vs Saint Seiya thread. This won't end well.

Anyways, Pontos via reasons above.

 

[XBlackExcellenceX]

You are the one that was somehow claiming that turning space-time into a viod is somehow impressive when pontus can do that too.

Look back at my original post. All I did was say that Space-Time Destruction/Void Manipulation is somewhat impressive for tier 2. Then you state that it's not but immediately after hyped up Prontos for Void manipulation feats of the same caliber.

And you still don't get that erasing on a universe+ scale is unimpressive when even the weakest titan can do that.

Low godly regen means that even if you are erased in this universe, you can still come back as you exist in another one or another realm, i am asking for proof that arceus has erased people who exist in different realms.

They're multiple variations of Prontos or something? Cause that's the only way he's coming back from existence erasure. How does he regenerate from being erased from existence anyway? Mid-Godly regen at least is required to regenerate from being erased.

And how exactly is being created from nothing somehow relevant to being able to regen from nothing? Also on pontos profile says he can destroy beings who can regen from nothing, so even if arceus could regen from nothing, pontos could still kill him.

I was referring to one of your earlier post using Prontos being born from nothingness as an argument.

Anyway i already casted my vote, replying any further seems like a waste of time, unless someone else brings up new reasons as to how arceus can win this.

Yeah I agree here, this was getting a little heated anyways. So I'll rather just end it here.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And how exactly is a hourglasss shaking proof that their battle affected multiple timelines?

ACTUALLY, IIRC, in the manga version of the movie the story opens up with them fighting and as they fight we see multiple timelines be exposed from their fighting. But im not sure if it would be any help since it may or may not be canon.

Also, since the narrator of the story says there fighting was affecting the "Space-Time Continuum", wouldnt that classify as affecting multiple timelines?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No. A Space-Time Continuum is a Universe / Timeline.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Why did you bump the thread, Kukui?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Can we not bump this thread Kukui? (Didn't want another Pokemon vs SS fight to begin with...)

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I actually thought Arceus was the strongest 2-C on the wiki.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Pretty sure it's Pontos.

 

[DaFritzi]

I vote for Arceus. I know Pontos has higher AP/durability, but in my opinion this is still Arceus win (very close fight though).

Reasons:

Arceus has conceptual manipulation of time, space, antimatter.

Conceptual manipulation is always above reality warping, since reality warping means changing reality itself, while conceptual manipulation means to change the system reality is built upon. This puts Arceus above Pontos in terms of space/time manipulation.

Arceus has conceptual manipulation of emotion, knowledge and willpower.

Also Arceus is able to take away Pontos knowledge of everything, leaving him unable to do anything. Same with taking away all of his willpower.

Intelligence

Arceus is nigh-omniscient, while Pontos is only very high. This means that Arceus knows everything about Pontos (abilities, weaknesses) and everything Pontos will do during the fight, while Pontos knows nothing about Arceus.

Yes, everything Arceus can do aside from space/time- + soul erasure will have no effect on Pontos due to his regen, but Arceus will not toy with him since he knows what he has to do to defeat Pontos. The difference in knowledge/intelligence is actually the crucial point in this match.

Also @Burning Full Fingers/Matthew Schroeder, i do believe Arceus is the strongest 2-C on the wiki, if this thread had no "speed equalized", it would be almost an easy win for Arceus.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Arceus has conceptual manipulation of time, space, antimatter."

Going by what the profile describes his abilities as, and what I know of the character, his powers are essentially the same as Pontos'.

"Conceptual manipulation is always above reality warping"

That's a tremendous NLF, and not how it works.

"Arceus has conceptual manipulation of emotion, knowledge and willpower.

Also Arceus is able to take away Pontos knowledge of everything, leaving him unable to do anything. Same with taking away all of his willpower."

No he won't be able to do so, that's a tremendous NLF as well, and you are also showing little to know knowledge of Saint Seiya. I doubt anyone in Pokémon has Mind Hax that even come close to Virgo Shaka, let alone someone like Mnemosyne who is fodder to Pontos.

Hell, 6th Saint Users have kept fighting after having their nervous systems destroyed. So I doubt Arceus' Mind Powers come even close to affecting Pontos.

"Arceus is nigh-omniscient, while Pontos is only very high. This means that Arceus knows everything about Pontos (abilities, weaknesses) and everything Pontos will do during the fight, while Pontos knows nothing about Arceus."

That's not how it works. You cannot be Nigh-Omniscient on affairs outside of your Verse. Both warriors are effectively clueless on each other here.

"Yes, everything Arceus can do aside from space/time- + soul erasure will have no effect on Pontos due to his regen"

Not really, Pontos' Space-Time powers are far superior, and literally everyone and their mother in Saint Seiya can affect and even destroy souls. I doubt Arceus has them on a scale and efficiency that matches Saint Seiya's.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Why won't people let a thread die?!

Anyway, Matt's not wrong, but he is underestimating Arceus. Because creating the concept of knowledge and every soul in the universe does sound way above the things you're naming.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That is indeed impressive, but then again it is the very power of even the basest Titan to create a universe out of nowhere and all that it encompasses, and be one with said universe. Besides, lets not ignore Mind / Soul powers such as endless real illusion dimensions, literal destruction of the "sense" of mind, trapping a soul in an eternal cycle of reincarnation through the realms of the Samsara, or literally erasing your soul from the cycle of reincarnation all souls go through.

Or Mnemosyne, who can have full control over the minds and memories of the godly Titans, who are one with their own universes and all the souls in it.

They seem more like equal in terms of Hax, with the exception being Pontos' Fate Manipulation.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

See, that I can wholeheartedly agree with.

 

[DaFritzi]

Alright, I have to admit I have been misinformed about how this wiki defines conceptual manipulation. After thinking it through I agree with you, they are more or less equal.

However I do not think that what I said about Arceus conceptual manipulation of emotion, knowledge and willpower is an NLF, given that he created every aspect of those three from nothing (I admit I should have worded it more carefully).

Also I have put what I wanted to say into the wrong words. It's not that he takes away pontos knowledge, what I meant was rather he should be able to exclude him from the concept of knowledge, ridding him of being able to know at all.

About Arceus knowing things about pontos, I agree that Arceus cannot know anything about other verses from the beginning. However I think that Arceus should be able to alter the concept of knowledge of the place where they battle in a way that gives him the same knowledge he has in his home verse.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (I like Arceus threads and as such I want to be able to be as precise about his abilities as possible).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I am unsure what "Altering the Concept of Knowledge" would entail. Can Arceus alter knowledge to make things that are factually incorrect and contradictory true. For instance, can he make "1 + 2 = Fish" be true, or make it possible for you to leave your house by entering it?

Furthermore, would it only affect the mind's perception of knowledge, or reality as a whole?

"Conceptual" is a very nice word with impressive implications, but this is not Powerlisting Wikia where powers are described with no concern for limitations.

Not saying that Arceus' Mind powers are weak, far from it, just thinking.

 

[QPower]

Actually I change my vote for Pontos. Thankz Matthew Schroeder for educating me more about Pontos. Pontos wins this.

Arceus' powers are nothing too special, Pontos has his own hax powers aswell. I am not convinced that Arceus' Conceptual Manipulation can beat Pontos. Remember Pontos has Reactive Evolution he will just get stronger as the fight goes on.

 

[Spazzdog]

Well, it does state that arceus can "devastate existence across multiple dimensions#" on the back cover of " arceus and the jewel of life " so he can destroy the concept of existence.

 

[Aparajita]

Arceus for reasons above.

Also, can we please stop using casually like it means something? We don't allow "Lul Saitama Casually" to boost him further than he is in fights, the same thing would happen here.

Also, Arceus didn't just fodderize his own creations, he fought them in a battle for legitimate ***** and gigs, and could have simply erased them from existence.