Pokemon TCG CRT

[Garchomp777]

This will be a CRT mainly focused on abilities shown from the TCG. Here's an explanation on why TCG is canon. Here's more evidence the TCG is canon.
Many pokemon pages already have TCG abilities as well , like Dusknoir

General
Its shown that energy is canon to TCG. Its basically just stamina or, well, energy. First scan here, second scan here. Pokemon card manga shows it as well. Pay attention to what the card actually does. They search the deck for those energy and add it to pokemon. And its shown that the pokemon just pull out energy outta nowhere. So maybe power bestowal or energy/stamina bestowal for a huge number of Pokemon.
Manipulating the chances of getting heads or tails is considered to be manipulating luck
Even more evidence here, since we know victinis entire character is about luck

Garedevoir
Passive Power Nullification of passive abilities shown here
Resistance Negation to mind manipulation shown here, and here It should be mindhax since its called mind shock and psychic moves attack on the mental plane
Damage transferal with Eternal radiance
Espeon
Damage transferal in Undaunted 2
Passive healing and Paralysis Inducement in EX Delta Species
Power Mimicry (Can copy any ability from an ally eevelution)
Passive Power Null or Resistance Bestowal shown in Dark Explorers
Evolution Manip or biological manipulation + Resistance Negation with psyshock in Unseen Forces and BREAKpoint

Claydol
Time Manipulation or devolution shown here. Consistent with the anime episode where baltoy shows time manip or travel
Passive Power null for baltoy, and time travel + Maybe precog In ancient origins
Light manip via lasers
Magic shown in Supreme Victors

Golurk
Evolution or bio manip in Dragons Exalted

Omastar
Bio or evolution manip

Jirachi
Same thing but with time manip
Some resistance negation via Swift

Sigilyph
Resistance negation with telekinesis

Musharna
Resistance negation with telekinesis

Spiritomb
Damage transferal in Legends Awakened
Pressing the B button to cancel evolution is somehow canon?!!?!?!?!?!??!?
Passive curse manip and limited sealing in Shining Legends. Remember, mean look and a lot of abilities that prevent escape are shown to be minor sealing

Hypno
Resistance negation shown here
Aura In EX FRLG

Mimikyu
Passive healing or regen negation in darkness ablaze

Mismagius
Death manip via perish song that doesnt kill the user
Chaos Manip via chaos wheel
More Power Nullification, this time it gets to decide the move to nullify shown here in Platinum
Energy Manip or stamina reduction in rising rivals, though this is a trainers pokemon and might not count

Azelf
Time travel or precog here
Aura + Can remove the weaknesses of all psychic pokemon allies in legends awakened

Mesprit
Passive power null in legends awakened

Beeheyem
Minor sealing and damage transferal

Xatu
Possible fate manip

Porygon Z
Passive power null in ancient origins

Shiftry
Passive probability manipulation + Power sealing shown in rising rivals

Malamar
Passive probability manip using contrary. Might not be counted since this is via Contrary, where it turns things into the opposite. Maybe you could even consider it to be causality manipulation
due to its nature of turning things into the opposite

Cofagrigus
Probability manip via Slap of Misfortune

Feraligatr
Passive power null in EX Unseen Forces

Magnezone
Resistance negation in Stormfront

Flygon
Resistance negation

Victini
Paralysis inducement
Healing: Can use its luck manip to heal

Moltres
Immortality type 4 or ressurection in gym heroes

Hydreigon
Life Force Absorption (With the Consume move)
Damage Reduction (Using Cruel Fang)

Aegislash
Resistance Negation with Buster Swing
Damage Reduction + Weakness Nullification for allies with Miracle Guard and Big Shield
Pain Manipulation with Sword Pain
Power Nullification of Dynamax Moves with Gigantobash. Very useful for in verse fights

Chandelure
Life Absorption With Absorb Life
Curse Manipulation and Death Manipulation shown here in Phantom Forces
Can lose weaknesses even for allies in Rebel Clash
Damage Transferal with Shady Move



Gothitelle
Passive power null of gear via passive Magic Room
Magic shown here

Death Manip, likely fate manip for some pokemon
Doom Decree is definitely death hax for gothitelle, but due to its naming, it could be some fate manipulation
Absol has an attack named doom news. I think its fate manip due to Absol's nature. And its literally called doom news
More showing of doom news
Aegislash has some one hit ko or death manipulation via Ticking Knock Out

Kabutops
Life Force Absorption via vital drain

I hope this is accepted. Credits to Half Shiny for the 2 scans of energy being canon

Agree: Thelastmlg, Psychomaster35, Imaginym

 

[Garchomp777]

Also, if any mod sees this, could you tag the pokemon scalers?

 

[Thelastmlg]

I believe the pokemon canon page is accepted and since the profiles are composite + the one you mentioned uses it, this should be fine, at best we should make sure the abilities given are correct since there are a lot.

Only a card game to give dozens of passive hax like that, like, resistance bestowal, wtf? Rarely saw stuff like that.

Are those all TCGs

 

[Psychomaster35]

I agree with this

 

[Garchomp777]

I believe the pokemon canon page is accepted and since the profiles are composite + the one you mentioned uses it, this should be fine, at best we should make sure the abilities given are correct since there are a lot.

Only a card game to give dozens of passive hax like that, like, resistance bestowal, wtf? Rarely saw stuff like that.

Are those all TCGs

Yes, this thread is focused on TCG abilities

 

[Thelastmlg]

No i mean, are those all the TCGs that exist or we know of?

 

[Garchomp777]

No i mean, are those all the TCGs that exist or we know of?

Why would they? There's hundreds of TCG cards. There are a lot more feats im missing. In a few days, I'll gather more. In the meantime, you can help me gather TCG feats too. Just look up some pokemon tcg sections on bulbapedia

 

[Garchomp777]

Bumping this thread.

 

[Imaginym]

Currently, I am largely unopposed to this, for all that that's worth.

 

[SamanPatou]

First I say that the TCG aren't inherently canon, as the blog itself says "Making the illustrations and entries usable as canon".
Said entries aren't the attacks, but small pieces of text that cards used to have in the pasy (I don't know if they still have them).
And the blog goes on with "most should only be used in a case by case scenario or as supporting evidence"
And cards were once used in profile such as Arceus', but were dismissed due to them being game mechanics related.


General:

The energy thing seems more like just a visual depiction of a game mechanics, and the manga needs its own level of scrutiny, as not all Pokémon mangas are considered canon (only adventures) and that seems something really specific and not supported by the main canon.
And manipulating luck revolves around coin flips, which are game mechanics, not something that represents reality.

That said, all of the abilities that revolve around coin flips, damage markers, attaching energy, imprison markers, looking at and messing with cards, benches and such are only related to the mechanics of the game and aren't special powersyou can apply to a "Realistic Pokémon setting", and can't be applied to profiles (and the blog itself says that).

Even the de-evolution stuff, if something not supported by the main canon (neither games, anime nor manga), it's shared by so many different Pokémon (Espeon, Claydol, Golurk, Omastar...) and it also clearly about another type of game mechanic (de-evolution and send cards back to the end) so I'm going to refuse even this.

From now on I will ignore what falls under the game mechanics I already mentioned:

Gardevoir:
Resistance and weakness negation may have sense but only for that specific attack, as it doesn't extend to its entire movepool. And we don't give effects after names alone and without evidences, Mind Shock may just be a psychic energy attack.

Espeon:
Just a note that Ex delta Pokémon are also particularly mutated Pokémon (the expansion's lore talks about radiations that mutated them) and aren't comparable to normal Pokémon.
Power mimicry may make sense.

Claydol/Baltoy:
Isn't the time travel in the anime due to the artifact and not the Pokémon itself?
Power null doesn't match the games, where abilities work on Baltoy, but it can be a specific ability, I can see it on a profile explaining that it isn't something all Baltoy have.
Lasers aren't inherently light in fiction, they can be just energy and that's only a name. Magic can work, I guess, even though it's really vague and unspecified.

Jirachi:
Swift being unaffected by all that stuff doesn't match the canon version of Swift, so I'm prone to disagree with it, despite it could make sense on its own.

Sigiliph and Musharna:
Dealing set amounts of damage sounds like game mechanics (just like in the video games), the rest can be ok for that specific attack, just like Gardevoir.

Spiritomb
Curse and sealing seems ok.

Hypno
Same for the others, as specific attacks that neg stuff

Mismagius
That's a specific combination of those two attacks and it doesn't match the main version of Perish song
The other is all game mechanics + just a name

Beeheyem:
Sealing seems fine, the other is game mechanics

Porygon Z and Feraligatr
Same as Baltoy for powernull

Flygon
Same as Jirachi

Hydreigon
They seem ok, even though damage reduction is a specific move and the amount (40) is game mechanics.

Aegislash
The first two and the fourth may work as specific attacks and abilities.

Chandelure
Life force abs can make sense.

Gothitelle
Magic may be a thing but the effect is game mechanics

Kabutops
Life absorb may work but it's a delta specie so I don't know

The rest is given after names alone (forbidden here), while the OHKO can work.


Big Note: Until now I made a rather dishonest cherry picking to try save something out of this, but I'm more prone to refuse it all at the end of the day for the just mentioned reason.

 

[Garchomp777]

First I say that the TCG aren't inherently canon, as the blog itself says "Making the illustrations and entries usable as canon".
Said entries aren't the attacks, but small pieces of text that cards used to have in the pasy (I don't know if they still have them).
And the blog goes on with "most should only be used in a case by case scenario or as supporting evidence"
And cards were once used in profile such as Arceus', but were dismissed due to them being game mechanics related.


General:

The energy thing seems more like just a visual depiction of a game mechanics, and the manga needs its own level of scrutiny, as not all Pokémon mangas are considered canon (only adventures) and that seems something really specific and not supported by the main canon.
And manipulating luck revolves around coin flips, which are game mechanics, not something that represents reality.

That said, all of the abilities that revolve around coin flips, damage markers, attaching energy, imprison markers, looking at and messing with cards, benches and such are only related to the mechanics of the game and aren't special powersyou can apply to a "Realistic Pokémon setting", and can't be applied to profiles (and the blog itself says that).

Even the de-evolution stuff, if something not supported by the main canon (neither games, anime nor manga), it's shared by so many different Pokémon (Espeon, Claydol, Golurk, Omastar...) and it also clearly about another type of game mechanic (de-evolution and send cards back to the end) so I'm going to refuse even this.

From now on I will ignore what falls under the game mechanics I already mentioned:

Gardevoir:
Resistance and weakness negation may have sense but only for that specific attack, as it doesn't extend to its entire movepool. And we don't give effects after names alone and without evidences, Mind Shock may just be a psychic energy attack.

Espeon:
Just a note that Ex delta Pokémon are also particularly mutated Pokémon (the expansion's lore talks about radiations that mutated them) and aren't comparable to normal Pokémon.
Power mimicry may make sense.

Claydol/Baltoy:
Isn't the time travel in the anime due to the artifact and not the Pokémon itself?
Power null doesn't match the games, where abilities work on Baltoy, but it can be a specific ability, I can see it on a profile explaining that it isn't something all Baltoy have.
Lasers aren't inherently light in fiction, they can be just energy and that's only a name. Magic can work, I guess, even though it's really vague and unspecified.

Jirachi:
Swift being unaffected by all that stuff doesn't match the canon version of Swift, so I'm prone to disagree with it, despite it could make sense on its own.

Sigiliph and Musharna:
Dealing set amounts of damage sounds like game mechanics (just like in the video games), the rest can be ok for that specific attack, just like Gardevoir.

Spiritomb
Curse and sealing seems ok.

Hypno
Same for the others, as specific attacks that neg stuff

Mismagius
That's a specific combination of those two attacks and it doesn't match the main version of Perish song
The other is all game mechanics + just a name

Beeheyem:
Sealing seems fine, the other is game mechanics

Porygon Z and Feraligatr
Same as Baltoy for powernull

Flygon
Same as Jirachi

Hydreigon
They seem ok, even though damage reduction is a specific move and the amount (40) is game mechanics.

Aegislash
The first two and the fourth may work as specific attacks and abilities.

Chandelure
Life force abs can make sense.

Gothitelle
Magic may be a thing but the effect is game mechanics

Kabutops
Life absorb may work but it's a delta specie so I don't know

The rest is given after names alone (forbidden here), while the OHKO can work.


Big Note: Until now I made a rather dishonest cherry picking to try save something out of this, but I'm more prone to refuse it all at the end of the day for the just mentioned reason.

You do know that there's literally a tcg video game right? Its definitely canon. And prove they are game mechanics since you made the claim

 

[SamanPatou]

Do I have to prove that flipping coins and messing with physical cards, markers and points are game mechanics and not the real representation of a Pokemon battle?
That's the literal definition of it, even verses such as Yu Gi Oh and Magic don't consider such things.
Even the blog you have in the op says it, and that cards should be either a case by case scenario or supportive evidences, neither of which are involved here.

Also having a video game doesn't mean anything, that's its own thing where people play actual cards.
And Pokémon has more video games and mangas that aren't part of the main canon, as explained and approved by that same blog.

And Arceus' profile had these same things removed because they are game mechanics.

 

[Garchomp777]

First I say that the TCG aren't inherently canon, as the blog itself says "Making the illustrations and entries usable as canon".
Said entries aren't the attacks, but small pieces of text that cards used to have in the pasy (I don't know if they still have them).
And the blog goes on with "most should only be used in a case by case scenario or as supporting evidence"
And cards were once used in profile such as Arceus', but were dismissed due to them being game mechanics related.


General:

The energy thing seems more like just a visual depiction of a game mechanics, and the manga needs its own level of scrutiny, as not all Pokémon mangas are considered canon (only adventures) and that seems something really specific and not supported by the main canon.
And manipulating luck revolves around coin flips, which are game mechanics, not something that represents reality.

That said, all of the abilities that revolve around coin flips, damage markers, attaching energy, imprison markers, looking at and messing with cards, benches and such are only related to the mechanics of the game and aren't special powersyou can apply to a "Realistic Pokémon setting", and can't be applied to profiles (and the blog itself says that).

Even the de-evolution stuff, if something not supported by the main canon (neither games, anime nor manga), it's shared by so many different Pokémon (Espeon, Claydol, Golurk, Omastar...) and it also clearly about another type of game mechanic (de-evolution and send cards back to the end) so I'm going to refuse even this.

From now on I will ignore what falls under the game mechanics I already mentioned:

Gardevoir:
Resistance and weakness negation may have sense but only for that specific attack, as it doesn't extend to its entire movepool. And we don't give effects after names alone and without evidences, Mind Shock may just be a psychic energy attack.

Espeon:
Just a note that Ex delta Pokémon are also particularly mutated Pokémon (the expansion's lore talks about radiations that mutated them) and aren't comparable to normal Pokémon.
Power mimicry may make sense.

Claydol/Baltoy:
Isn't the time travel in the anime due to the artifact and not the Pokémon itself?
Power null doesn't match the games, where abilities work on Baltoy, but it can be a specific ability, I can see it on a profile explaining that it isn't something all Baltoy have.
Lasers aren't inherently light in fiction, they can be just energy and that's only a name. Magic can work, I guess, even though it's really vague and unspecified.

Jirachi:
Swift being unaffected by all that stuff doesn't match the canon version of Swift, so I'm prone to disagree with it, despite it could make sense on its own.

Sigiliph and Musharna:
Dealing set amounts of damage sounds like game mechanics (just like in the video games), the rest can be ok for that specific attack, just like Gardevoir.

Spiritomb
Curse and sealing seems ok.

Hypno
Same for the others, as specific attacks that neg stuff

Mismagius
That's a specific combination of those two attacks and it doesn't match the main version of Perish song
The other is all game mechanics + just a name

Beeheyem:
Sealing seems fine, the other is game mechanics

Porygon Z and Feraligatr
Same as Baltoy for powernull

Flygon
Same as Jirachi

Hydreigon
They seem ok, even though damage reduction is a specific move and the amount (40) is game mechanics.

Aegislash
The first two and the fourth may work as specific attacks and abilities.

Chandelure
Life force abs can make sense.

Gothitelle
Magic may be a thing but the effect is game mechanics

Kabutops
Life absorb may work but it's a delta specie so I don't know

The rest is given after names alone (forbidden here), while the OHKO can work.


Big Note: Until now I made a rather dishonest cherry picking to try save something out of this, but I'm more prone to refuse it all at the end of the day for the just mentioned reason.

The energy thing is a visual representation of how the game works in canon. That doesn't make it a game mechanic, what kind of logic is that?

I never said mind shock would grant resistance negation to everything in the move pool. Psychic type attacks are mental attacks, though.

The literal definition of laser is just light, it doesn't matter if its "energy in other fictions", that's a false equivalency. And as for baltoy, prove its a game mechanic since you made the claim



Dealing set amounts of damage isn't related to resistance negation, you definitely didn't even read the links

Specific attacks are still abilities

Porygon Z and feraligatr: Even if some abilities aren't nulled, its still good to use lol its not like it doesn't nullify anything at all.

How the hell is damage transferal game mechanics at all? The damage markers and all that are just real life mechanics you do when players play the game. Damage counters just mean damage

The rest ain't given through names alone. The doom abilities literally make the enemy get KO next turn. And like i said, consistent with the fact that absol is related to fate and causing unfortunate events to happen.

 

[SamanPatou]

I was saiying that it bring a visual representation in a trailer isn't an evidence for a power, and it still shows a mechanic centered around shifting energy cards.

I agree with the first, but not all psychic attacks target the mind, as some are energy blasts, telekinesis and such.

That laser isn't even shown, it's just a word, it's the same reason we don't assume lasers are actual light and lightspeed. And the only Baltoy thing are reffered as game mechanic is the de-evolution thing, which I already explained in my first reply.

Nice assumption, I read the links but what I meant is that we don't assume stuff like dragon rage always deal exactly 40 points of damage, as it's game mechanics, as the same is for statistics and so on. They are attacks that deal damage, without any other special property, since their quirk comes from game mechanics.

Yes, I said that it can be used as specific powernull, pointing out that it's not something common for the species, since there's no such things in the games.

Markers mean damage, but how they work and are quantified is strictly game mechanic, since point-based values can't be used, for the same reason game verses on the wiki don't use life points, health point and so on to determine abilities.

Absol doesn't cause unfortunate events to happen and isn't related to fate. The dex explains how it foresees disasters, it doesn't have control over fate. But the OHKO moves can still be considered such without being addressed as fate manipulation.


And the overall point of this is trying to pick stuff related to mechanics and turn them into powers, something already rejected on the wiki for every verse and that has already been rejected even for Pokémon in the past, the canon blog also says it. And I'm not a fan of cherry picking in order to save at least something.

 

[Garchomp777]

I was saiying that it bring a visual representation in a trailer isn't an evidence for a power, and it still shows a mechanic centered around shifting energy cards.

I agree with the first, but not all psychic attacks target the mind, as some are energy blasts, telekinesis and such.

That laser isn't even shown, it's just a word, it's the same reason we don't assume lasers are actual light and lightspeed. And the only Baltoy thing are reffered as game mechanic is the de-evolution thing, which I already explained in my first reply.

Nice assumption, I read the links but what I meant is that we don't assume stuff like dragon rage always deal exactly 40 points of damage, as it's game mechanics, as the same is for statistics and so on. They are attacks that deal damage, without any other special property, since their quirk comes from game mechanics.

Yes, I said that it can be used as specific powernull, pointing out that it's not something common for the species, since there's no such things in the games.

Markers mean damage, but how they work and are quantified is strictly game mechanic, since point-based values can't be used, for the same reason game verses on the wiki don't use life points, health point and so on to determine abilities.

Absol doesn't cause unfortunate events to happen and isn't related to fate. The dex explains how it foresees disasters, it doesn't have control over fate. But the OHKO moves can still be considered such without being addressed as fate manipulation.


And the overall point of this is trying to pick stuff related to mechanics and turn them into powers, something already rejected on the wiki for every verse and that has already been rejected even for Pokémon in the past, the canon blog also says it. And I'm not a fan of cherry picking in order to save at least something.

Do you have discord? We can debate im VC

 

[SamanPatou]

I miss the point of debating on discord what would still need to be debated here in the same way.

 

[Garchomp777]

I miss the point of debating on discord what would still need to be debated here in the same way.

What about the other valid abilities? You think we should add them? Also, the TCG is still canon according to the verse page and blog and dusknoir profile

 

[SamanPatou]

The TCG may be canon within certain limits, but it can't contradict the primary sources, as well as being used only to support other stuff or in specific cases.
Personally I can see on the profiles the things not strictly related to game mechanics I mentioned in my first reply, but it's kind of dishonest since all come from the same source.
Let's see what other supporters think.

@GyroNutz @Starter_Pack @Elizhaa @Ionliosite @ProfessorKukui4Life @Adem_Warlock69 @Bobsican

These are the first I could think of, I may ping more if necessary.

 

[Garchomp777]

Also, do you guys accept Delta Species abilities? The profiles are composite pokemon unowned by trainers, so maybe we could add them, but I don't know. I mean delta species is similar to regional variant

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Bit busy atm with school stuff, so I’ll try commenting on this later.

But I pretty much agree with the TCG being canon if that’s what’s getting asked.

 

[Ionliosite]

But I pretty much agree with the TCG being canon if that’s what’s getting asked.

That's not what's being asked here. And it was already accepted as canon back in the thread that made the canon blog to begin with, so this argument is completely redundant.

 

[GyroNutz]

First I say that the TCG aren't inherently canon, as the blog itself says "Making the illustrations and entries usable as canon".
Said entries aren't the attacks, but small pieces of text that cards used to have in the pasy (I don't know if they still have them).
And the blog goes on with "most should only be used in a case by case scenario or as supporting evidence"
And cards were once used in profile such as Arceus', but were dismissed due to them being game mechanics related.

Pretty much this. TCG provides supporting evidence, but is too game mechanics reliant + disconnected from the main series for everything from it to be taken at face value. Stuff like Arceus having an op passive power null came from TCG and was rejected because it was from TCG, in short.

 

[Garchomp777]

Bump