Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

[Jinx666]

Idk if theres gonna be anymore DLC and Megas shown then but should there be a CRT that just adds all the new Mega forms from ZA to the current profiles that don't have them (and then add any other new natural moveset changes), or do we wait for their abilities to be revealed?

(Excluding the plot relevant ones like Zygarde who probably need a proper rework?)

 

[NeoZex6399]

Mega Heatran's dex description in spanish says the following:

"If it insists, it can keep its enemies at bay by making its body reach temperatures of 1,000,000 ºC."

 

[Lou_change]

I was right

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Finally after playing through all the DLC (it was pretty good) I’m able to get back on social media.

Does Korrina get any interesting feats?

Like, for her Pokémon?

She, the protagonist and Urbain/Taunie are repeatedly called “Lumiose’s toughest trio” and they fight new Rouge Megas together, making Korrina comparable to Urbain/Taunie. There’s also an occasional gag that implies Urbain/Taunie are the weakest of the three. Also also, if you want to use levels, Korrina’s initial battle has her use higher level Pokémon than anything in the base game.

This would make Korrina at least upscale from the protagonist at the end of the main story, as the plot continues even if you lose the final Urbain/Taunie fight that decides who the strongest Mega user is. The protagonist defeats both 50% Zygarde and Emma before that fight, so Korrina would be Tier 3. If you use levels, Korrina would upscale from L and scale to Zygarde Complete.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Spoiler: Hyperspace Lumiose talk

I have no idea how to scale Hyperspace Lumiose, or whether anyone actually even scales to it. It being called “hyperspace” doesn’t seem to mean much as Corbeau only calls it that due to the “hyper strong Pokémon” found there, so idk if it’s actually a “hyperspace” at all. There’s the fact that the Pokémon go beyond Lv. 100, as if they’re going beyond their natural limits, which you can only keep up with due to Hoopa’s rings granting you some of the power it gains from eating the donuts. It’s stated that Darkrai created Hyperspace Lumiose after absorbing an immense amount of Mega Power during the Ange crisis, which means this wouldn’t scale to its base or Mega’s usual level. However it gets extra weird when we see Hoopa seemingly manifesting Hoopa Unbound’s power after eating the Bad Dream Cruller, implying Hoopa w/ Bad Dreams Cruller = Hoopa Unbound*. If so then the whole Lv. 100+ thing gets super clunky. Pardon the somewhat incomprehensible rant, I’m just not sure how to wrap my head around this rn.

*EDIT: Actually ignore this part, Hoopa probably only manifested that power because the donut was infused with Mega power. They were probably just implying Hoopa Unbound is comparable to or above the power of a typical Mega evolution.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Spoiler: Hyperspace Lumiose talk

I have no idea how to scale Hyperspace Lumiose, or whether anyone actually even scales to it. It being called “hyperspace” doesn’t seem to mean much as Corbeau only calls it that due to the “hyper strong Pokémon” found there, so idk if it’s actually a “hyperspace” at all. There’s the fact that the Pokémon go beyond Lv. 100, as if they’re going beyond their natural limits, which you can only keep up with due to Hoopa’s rings granting you some of the power it gains from eating the donuts. It’s stated that Darkrai created Hyperspace Lumiose after absorbing an immense amount of Mega Power during the Ange crisis, which means this wouldn’t scale to its base or Mega’s usual level. However it gets extra weird when we see Hoopa seemingly manifesting Hoopa Unbound’s power after eating the Bad Dream Cruller, implying Hoopa w/ Bad Dreams Cruller = Hoopa Unbound*. If so then the whole Lv. 100+ thing gets super clunky. Pardon the somewhat incomprehensible rant, I’m just not sure how to wrap my head around this rn.

*EDIT: Actually ignore this part, Hoopa probably only manifested that power because the donut was infused with Mega power. They were probably just implying Hoopa Unbound is comparable to or above the power of a typical Mega evolution.

Spoiler: major corrections

First off, I messed up. I completely misremembered how Corbeau named Hyperspace Lumiose, it was actually named after Hoopa’s Hyperspace Hole. That might change things.

Secondly, I just remembered that Ansha already went into Hyperspace Lumiose six months before the events of Mega Dimensions (so before Darkrai went Rogue). If the dreams created by Darkrai are considered actual “hyperspaces” then that also might make a big difference (are hyperspaces considered 4-D or 5-D? Idk a lot of this stuff that well).

YET ANOTHER EDIT: So I was reading through Bulbapedia just to see if Hoopa’s dex entries and signiture move descriptions might give more context, and I found that their translations of the japanese names with “hyperspace” in them apparently say “interdimensional” and “otherdimensional”. I imagine that rules out 5-D Darkrai or anything, since “otherdimensional Miare/Lumiose” would just be city-sized without any extra context.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Question: Should the whole “going above Lv. 100 thing” be taken as super literal? In other words, would this make the Pokémon in HL above any tier they can naturally reach (Low 1-C via Arceus), or should it just be treated as an undefined power boost that scales only to whatever the characters show in-game (2-B/2-A via Darkrai)?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Question: Should the whole “going above Lv. 100 thing” be taken as super literal? In other words, would this make the Pokémon in HL above any tier they can naturally reach (Low 1-C via Arceus), or should it just be treated as an undefined power boost that scales only to whatever the characters show in-game (2-B/2-A via Darkrai)?

I think the notion that a level 100 Pokemon can be Tier 7 and then jump up to Tier 1 at level 101 is pretty outlandish.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I think the notion that a level 100 Pokemon can be Tier 7 and then jump up to Tier 1 at level 101 is pretty outlandish.

I agree that “>Lv. 100 = Low 1-C” is kinda silly to me as well, but tbf it’s not that drastic of an increase. The wild Pokémon you find aren’t even close to Lv. 100 outside of HL after catching them, and the Pokémon the characters use already have Tier 3 scaling through Xerneas, Yveltal and Zygarde (maybe even Tier 2 just from the MC owning Darkrai? Idk for sure).

 

[Random-Helper323]

I think we'd need more evidence to instantly place Pokemon above level 100 at the level of Arceus.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I think we'd need more evidence to instantly place Pokemon above level 100 at the level of Arceus.

Agreed, i just wanted to consider all options

 

[Aftshhhrrgjbv]

I agree that “>Lv. 100 = Low 1-C” is kinda silly to me as well, but tbf it’s not that drastic of an increase. The wild Pokémon you find aren’t even close to Lv. 100 outside of HL after catching them, and the Pokémon the characters use already have Tier 3 scaling through Xerneas, Yveltal and Zygarde (maybe even Tier 2 just from the MC owning Darkrai? Idk for sure).

Where does he get the 3A scale for Legendary Kalos from? I don't even know the manga. Even here they needed Mega Zygarde to stop Final Boss, whose greatest feat is scaling up to the ultimate weapon, which is barely planetary.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Where does he get the 3A scale for Legendary Kalos from? I don't even know the manga. Even here they needed Mega Zygarde to stop Final Boss, whose greatest feat is scaling up to the ultimate weapon, which is barely planetary.

Xerneas and Yveltal scale to Zygarde, who fought Ultra Necrozma.

I don’t agree with cross-scaling all the continuities, but that’s what’s used for the profiles so I based everything off of that.

 

[Aftshhhrrgjbv]

*We should scale Guzzlord, Mother Beast, and others of that level, as well as Hapu, Kiawe, and Guzma, far above the Creation Trio (Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza, and 50% Zygarde). In the anime, it is repeatedly stated that Gladion was the toughest trainer at that time (行け、最強の敵がついに始まる！), and Ash managed to keep up; Kiawe did as well.


That should place them comfortably above most of the XY&Z cast, including 50% Zygarde, Ash’s Greninja, Yveltal, and Xerneas.**

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Consistent with the Hoopa movie fr

 

[Aftshhhrrgjbv]

That's questionable considering that both XYZ and SM planet destruction are considered amazing feats, which doesn't make sense.
If Dialga and Palkia scale, they're all legendary.
Or the fact that Journey portrays Dialga and Palkia as much more powerful than we saw before.
Or are Dialga, Palkia, and Hoopa not universal, or does that create a huge inconsistency with later seaso

Consistent with the Hoopa movie fr

ns?

 

[Jinx666]

Tbf the only reason Zygarde scales ot Ultra Necrozma is the manga continuity. Which...purely hinges on the canon compositing stance this wiki takes.

Meanwhile the games don't really suggest anything of the sort, or would have any reason to hinge or link back to manga events when they clearly didnt happen within the same verse.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Consistent with the Hoopa movie fr

I've always thought the Lugia in that movie warranted something big too, but it's Gen 2 so it doesn't tend to get any attention.

 

[Imaginym]

Can someone give me the scans for wild Pokémon lasting days on end with injuries

AFAIK, this is based on Mystery Dungeon games, where they wake up, usually spend a small amount of time in the hub town, go to a dungeon, then the day ends as they exit the dungeon (Be it from victory, defeat or other forms of exit.), but there could be other basises.

ZA DLC Pokedex statements are kinda crazy

That's a lot of volts

From Bulbapedia's trivia page for Gigavolt Havoc:

• The metric prefix "giga" indicates 10^9 (1,000,000,000). Based on the Japanese name of Thunderbolt (100,000 Volts), this move's voltage is 10,000 times greater.
  • In Pokémon Adventures, Red's Pikachu Pika used an improvised move called MegaVolt (Japanese: １００まんボルト 1,000,000 Volts), whose measurement of 106 volts puts it at 10 times the strength of Thunderbolt.
  • 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, the exclusive Z-Move of Pikachu in a cap, has a measurement of 10^7 volts, being 100 times the voltage of Thunderbolt. This puts it at 1% the voltage of Gigavolt Havoc, even though only the strongest instances of Gigavolt Havoc have the same move power as 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt.

I'm not sure where they get the confirmed measurement, beyond the name. Maybe on the official site in Japanese or something? That said, while names don't always mean that much, there's an obvious trend in these names, no? So maybe it could be lent some credence.

....Though this'd mean the generic Electric-type Z-Move, Gigavolt Havoc, is 20 times stronger than Mega Raichu, yet the signature move of Pikachu in a Cap, which is implied to be Ash's Pikachu, 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt Havoc, is 100 times WEAKER than said generic Electric-type Z-Move as well as 5 times weaker than Mega Raichu X???

Clonejutsu is pretty cool

If this carries over, maybe it'll mean Tatusgiri won't be useless in VGC when it's left alone without Dondozo! Neat! (Or not, because why not use your 1 Mega on a more potent mon instead of using it on a mon that's usually only out when you're in a bad spot? Maybe for a story boss....)

One strong birb

The "more than 880 lbs" may be the localization's way of writing when metric-to-imperial conversions are inexact. Pokemon especially likes multiples of 5 or 10 integers.

Space Manipulation is neat

True!

THAT'S HOT. VERY VERY HOT.

On Bulbapedia's main page, they link to their affiliates: 7 different languages of Wikis for Pokemon, including the Pokemon Wiki!
https://wiki.ポケモン.com/wiki/メインページ

For raw Japanese Pokedex entries, I personally consider them pretty trustworthy!

https://wiki.ポケモン.com/wiki/ヒードラン

....Unfortunately, it seems their Wiki page for Heatran, although it has a section for Mega Heatran, does not yet have the Mega Heatran Pokedex entry from Pokemon Legends: Z-A's Mega Dimension DLC just yet. : (

Unsure if dex is impressive, but if I'm not mistaken, he created Hyperspace Lumiose (or at least created part of it) in the story, and should scale to it, which is a hyperspatial dimension (it's literally in the name)

Cool design, cool feat, cool potential, hype to see what this brings! Besides bringing DARKNESS, obviously, lol.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Tbf the only reason Zygarde scales ot Ultra Necrozma is the manga continuity. Which...purely hinges on the canon compositing stance this wiki takes.

Meanwhile the games don't really suggest anything of the sort, or would have any reason to hinge or link back to manga events when they clearly didnt happen within the same verse.

What was the reason the wiki decided to composite the verse again after the inital decision to split the games, anime, and manga? It seems weird to say, I dunno, Mewtwo in the games is the same strength as the one in the manga just because they're both Mewtwo. I can understand the different mediums being part of like the same cosmology but power levels and such being shared between them is weird.

 

[Lou_change]

I am honestly not sure anyone is supposed to scale to Arceus's 1-C avatar I mean the rating is from being infinitely superior to Palkia, Dialga, and the third one I believe that means even levels would not make them comparable to Arceus in fact I think the guy behind 1-C Arceus has tried to add tier 2 avatars

 

[Jinx666]

What was the reason the wiki decided to composite the verse again after the inital decision to split the games, anime, and manga? It seems weird to say, I dunno, Mewtwo in the games is the same strength as the one in the manga just because they're both Mewtwo. I can understand the different mediums being part of like the same cosmology but power levels and such being shared between them is weird.

Honestly couldnt tell you. Wasn't around for the change, but from what im hearing its apparently because it all takes place in the same multiverse and stuff. I don't personally agree with it myself and think we at least need to separate the Game, Anime and Manga mediums into three, but it'd be a ton of work and time investment for this verse.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

What was the reason the wiki decided to composite the verse again after the inital decision to split the games, anime, and manga? It seems weird to say, I dunno, Mewtwo in the games is the same strength as the one in the manga just because they're both Mewtwo. I can understand the different mediums being part of like the same cosmology but power levels and such being shared between them is weird.

Honestly couldnt tell you. Wasn't around for the change, but from what im hearing its apparently because it all takes place in the same multiverse and stuff. I don't personally agree with it myself and think we at least need to separate the Game, Anime and Manga mediums into three, but it'd be a ton of work and time investment for this verse.

Pokémon: Nearly Everything is Canon

As some may recall, years ago a sort of canon split was done across all Pokémon media, considering each series, including the manga and animes, as separate canons. However, the reasons for this are questionable and simply go against the overall way the canon for the series works. There are...

vsbattles.com

 

[Aftshhhrrgjbv]

Pokémon: Nearly Everything is Canon

As some may recall, years ago a sort of canon split was done across all Pokémon media, considering each series, including the manga and animes, as separate canons. However, the reasons for this are questionable and simply go against the overall way the canon for the series works. There are...

vsbattles.com

To be honest, this sounds like a huge fallacy in many ways, and they're turning a blind eye to the inconsistencies it brings; they won't even acknowledge each other. Damn, it's not even a good composite, like the Zygarde case, which uses a single instance instead of the atypical 10 it has.

 

[Lou_change]

I mean there has been talk of keeping legendaries separate because variations across media.

 

[Aftshhhrrgjbv]

Ironically, the best feats come directly from Sun and Moon: Ash for his scaling, Solgaleo, Lunala, and Cynthia's unique feat of deflecting a Palkia attack are comically above Leon or almost every other character in the anime.

 

[Imaginym]

Ironically, the best feats come directly from Sun and Moon: Ash for his scaling, Solgaleo, Lunala, and Cynthia's unique feat of deflecting a Palkia attack are comically above Leon or almost every other character in the anime.

Best feats excluding feats like the US/UM Protagonist defeating Rainbow Rocket Cyrus's Creation Trio members, the D/P/Pt player characters maybe battling &/or winning against a Creation Trio Member. (IIRC, you can run from them in D/P/Pt & the story will advance, but I'm not 100% certain, & IDK about BD/SP.)
US/UM Protagonist also HAS to beat Ultra Necrozma to catch it; Running doesn't resolve it. & we know base Necrozma is superior to Solgaleo & Lunala because it goes after & defeats whichever one of them is version mascot to fuse, & that resulting fusion still isn't Necrozma's true form.

Team Galactic's notes also indicate something about Poke Balls, even Master Balls, preventing full use of a CT's power, so there may be something to consider from that, especially with Terapagos breaking a Master Ball in S/V's storyline.

& of course, the P:LA protagonist defeated Giratina in both forms. IDK if they battled Dialga or Palkia, & they can battle Arceus, though I think battles against Arceus are only in dreams set up by Arceus. Correct me if I'm wrong.

There might be inferrences to be made from stuff like Blueberry Academy or Hyperspace Lumiose if CT members are obtainable there.
I vaguely recall something about affecting time space or something for Eternatus to get 3-A or something, but that might just be Eternamax Eternaus. (& also, High 3-A is just countably infinite, IIRC, so it's not a way to get to tier 2.)

& there's also still the matter of Hyperspace Lumiose to discuss, given its connections to Hoopa.
There may also be significance from what causes Rogue Mega Evolutions, since it could scale to causing them, & Mega Zygarde (Among maybe others.) defeats it, IIRC?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Team Galactic's notes also indicate something about Poke Balls, even Master Balls, preventing full use of a CT's power, so there may be something to consider from that, especially with Terapagos breaking a Master Ball in S/V's storyline.

I find that kinda strange since the MCs can still fight CT members when they’re not in Poké Balls. Outside of LA’s Giratina fight, there are also other Legendaries that have to be fought with Pokémon to progress with no other way to win:

• N’s Reshiram/Zekrom
• The Black/White Kyurem controlled by Ghetsis
• Dusk Mane/Dawn Wings Necrozma + Ultra Necrozma, as mentioned already
• Gladion’s Silvally
• The Rainbow Rocket legendaries
• Eternatus
• Hop’s Zacian/Zamazenta
• Mustard’s Urshifu
• Zygarde in Z-A

With all these examples, MCs fighting legendaries is very common and consistent. The MCs should scale to all the story-relevant legendaries even if they’re fought like normal wild Pokémon (where you can technically catch them before they can attack or take damage from you), which would include Lucas/Dawn fighting the CT in the Sinnoh games.

If I had to rationalise the statement about their power being limited, I’d probably just say that Poké Balls limit their space-time manipulation rather than their raw AP. Cyrus wanted Dialga and Palkia to remake the world, so them not having the hax to do that when bound to Poké Balls would explain why he used the Red Chain instead.

 

[Imaginym]

I find that kinda strange since the MCs can still fight CT members when they’re not in Poké Balls.

I presume the point of Team Galactic's research -I don't remember the exact text, but you want I should find it?- is not just that being in Poke Balls nerfs them, but that to be able to catch them at all, they have to be nerfed, or that only a portion of their power can be harnessed by capturing them that way.

That said, there is the Red Chain, but are there any mandatory Red Chain/no Poke Ball CT fights aside from Volo's Giratina where the story can't be advanced by fleeing the battle?

Outside of LA’s Giratina fight, there are also other Legendaries that have to be fought with Pokémon to progress with no other way to win:

• N’s Reshiram/Zekrom
• The Black/White Kyurem controlled by Ghetsis
• Dusk Mane/Dawn Wings Necrozma + Ultra Necrozma, as mentioned already
• Gladion’s Silvally
• The Rainbow Rocket legendaries
• Eternatus
• Hop’s Zacian/Zamazenta
• Mustard’s Urshifu
• Zygarde in Z-A

With all these examples, MCs fighting legendaries is very common and consistent. The MCs should scale to all the story-relevant legendaries even if they’re fought like normal wild Pokémon (where you can technically catch them before they can attack or take damage from you), which would include Lucas/Dawn fighting the CT in the Sinnoh games.

Interesting notions.
Also, I'm reminded of the fact that whenever we get around to do trainer scaling, I so badly want the S/V protagonist to get their scaling chain.
Because they scale to "Champion Rank" trainers, & then scale to Area Zero, & then Raids dangerous for Champion Ranks & then Raids too dangerous for Champion Ranks (There's specific story dialogue acknowleding it.) & then they can do the DLC. Though Teal Mask can seemingly be started after the Tutorial or after Way Home & levels will change to account for it, so where it scales is wonky.
But Blueberry Academy DOES require having cleared The Way Home so it's above all that previous stuff.
THEN you go back to Area Zero to fight Tera Stellar Pokemon & Terapagos.

It means Paradox Pokemon have... interesting scaling chains, as do the protagonists & their group for taking on multiples at once, as do Tera Raid Pokemon because they're considered dangerous to beyond-Champion-Rank-trained Pokemon despite being in a 4-vs-1 against the favor of them, those Terra Raid Pokemon.

Though, other than Terapagos's Master Ball Shenanigans & Snackworth's missions, I'm not sure if S/V Protagonist has much to scale to the toppest tier of Legendaries.

Also, didn't you forget to mention the spoilery thing in Z-A that grants Mega Evolution power & maybe Hoopa?

If I had to rationalise the statement about their power being limited, I’d probably just say that Poké Balls limit their space-time manipulation rather than their raw AP. Cyrus wanted Dialga and Palkia to remake the world, so them not having the hax to do that when bound to Poké Balls would explain why he used the Red Chain instead.

Maybe?

 

[Aftshhhrrgjbv]

I presume the point of Team Galactic's research -I don't remember the exact text, but you want I should find it?- is not just that being in Poke Balls nerfs them, but that to be able to catch them at all, they have to be nerfed, or that only a portion of their power can be harnessed by capturing them that way.

That said, there is the Red Chain, but are there any mandatory Red Chain/no Poke Ball CT fights aside from Volo's Giratina where the story can't be advanced by fleeing the battle?

Interesting notions.
Also, I'm reminded of the fact that whenever we get around to do trainer scaling, I so badly want the S/V protagonist to get their scaling chain.
Because they scale to "Champion Rank" trainers, & then scale to Area Zero, & then Raids dangerous for Champion Ranks & then Raids too dangerous for Champion Ranks (There's specific story dialogue acknowleding it.) & then they can do the DLC. Though Teal Mask can seemingly be started after the Tutorial or after Way Home & levels will change to account for it, so where it scales is wonky.
But Blueberry Academy DOES require having cleared The Way Home so it's above all that previous stuff.
THEN you go back to Area Zero to fight Tera Stellar Pokemon & Terapagos.

It means Paradox Pokemon have... interesting scaling chains, as do the protagonists & their group for taking on multiples at once, as do Tera Raid Pokemon because they're considered dangerous to beyond-Champion-Rank-trained Pokemon despite being in a 4-vs-1 against the favor of them, those Terra Raid Pokemon.

Though, other than Terapagos's Master Ball Shenanigans & Snackworth's missions, I'm not sure if S/V Protagonist has much to scale to the toppest tier of Legendaries.

Also, didn't you forget to mention the spoilery thing in Z-A that grants Mega Evolution power & maybe Hoopa?

Maybe?

I'll be honest: I think using scaling like the rented Pokémon in Sword & Shield or the Master Ball is questionable, which is why I'd end up scaling everything at the Legendary level, scaling up to the trio of Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina, even though the games still portray them as god-level entities.

Above all, I think this holds true for characters like the protagonist of Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, Diamond/Pearl/Platinum, and Legends: Arceus, since it's consistent across all media that they defeat the Universal Creation Trio.

On the other hand, characters like those in Scarlet & Violet or Sword & Shield, and even in other media like Masters, most of the protagonists haven't even encountered Legendaries outside of their own generation.

I think you could use the Hoopa Ring from Oras to scale Ruby and Sapphire because it can capture Dialga, Palkia, or Giratina, but I don't know, that's not even acknowledged in the story, and it would make Rayquaza, the only one capable of destroying the meteorite, seem incredibly stupid

 

[Aftshhhrrgjbv]

From the anime, if Ash has more impressive climbing abilities, Solgaleo requires Radiant Sun to destroy Mother Beast's giant wall. Minutes later, Mother Beast grows in size, and Ash still destroys it.



One arc later, Solgaleo, exhausted, defeats Necrozma.

https://i.imgur.c

Best feats excluding feats like the US/UM Protagonist defeating Rainbow Rocket Cyrus's Creation Trio members, the D/P/Pt player characters maybe battling &/or winning against a Creation Trio Member. (IIRC, you can run from them in D/P/Pt & the story will advance, but I'm not 100% certain, & IDK about BD/SP.)
US/UM Protagonist also HAS to beat Ultra Necrozma to catch it; Running doesn't resolve it. & we know base Necrozma is superior to Solgaleo & Lunala because it goes after & defeats whichever one of them is version mascot to fuse, & that resulting fusion still isn't Necrozma's true form.

Team Galactic's notes also indicate something about Poke Balls, even Master Balls, preventing full use of a CT's power, so there may be something to consider from that, especially with Terapagos breaking a Master Ball in S/V's storyline.

& of course, the P:LA protagonist defeated Giratina in both forms. IDK if they battled Dialga or Palkia, & they can battle Arceus, though I think battles against Arceus are only in dreams set up by Arceus. Correct me if I'm wrong.

There might be inferrences to be made from stuff like Blueberry Academy or Hyperspace Lumiose if CT members are obtainable there.
I vaguely recall something about affecting time space or something for Eternatus to get 3-A or something, but that might just be Eternamax Eternaus. (& also, High 3-A is just countably infinite, IIRC, so it's not a way to get to tier 2.)

& there's also still the matter of Hyperspace Lumiose to discuss, given its connections to Hoopa.
There may also be significance from what causes Rogue Mega Evolutions, since it could scale to causing them, & Mega Zygarde (Among maybe others.) defeats it, IIRC?

om/ggra0TA.mp4

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Tbh I feel like optional legendaries shouldn’t be used for scaling, since a lot of them are either confirmed non-canon (like Mewtwo and Zygarde’s XY battles) or are probably not canon (like catching Kyurem in BW). Before I didn’t mind the excuse of the MCs just releasing the Pokémon or something, but now I think it’s safer to just use whatever’s plot-relevant.

I presume the point of Team Galactic's research -I don't remember the exact text, but you want I should find it?- is not just that being in Poke Balls nerfs them, but that to be able to catch them at all, they have to be nerfed, or that only a portion of their power can be harnessed by capturing them that way.

That’s a possibility. And yeah, I would appreciate it if you could find the exact text.

That said, there is the Red Chain, but are there any mandatory Red Chain/no Poke Ball CT fights aside from Volo's Giratina where the story can't be advanced by fleeing the battle?

At the end of Legends Arceus, you fight either Palkia or Dialga and then have to face the opposite one in their Origin Forme. The first fight requires you to catch them iirc, but for the second fight you technically don’t have to use Pokémon. It would be reasonable to assume that the MCs Pokémon scale to their durability, though.

Interesting notions.
Also, I'm reminded of the fact that whenever we get around to do trainer scaling, I so badly want the S/V protagonist to get their scaling chain.
Because they scale to "Champion Rank" trainers, & then scale to Area Zero, & then Raids dangerous for Champion Ranks & then Raids too dangerous for Champion Ranks (There's specific story dialogue acknowleding it.) & then they can do the DLC. Though Teal Mask can seemingly be started after the Tutorial or after Way Home & levels will change to account for it, so where it scales is wonky.
But Blueberry Academy DOES require having cleared The Way Home so it's above all that previous stuff.
THEN you go back to Area Zero to fight Tera Stellar Pokemon & Terapagos.

It means Paradox Pokemon have... interesting scaling chains, as do the protagonists & their group for taking on multiples at once, as do Tera Raid Pokemon because they're considered dangerous to beyond-Champion-Rank-trained Pokemon despite being in a 4-vs-1 against the favor of them, those Terra Raid Pokemon

Iirc “champion-ranked trainer” is only in the context of Paldea and isn’t much of a comparison point to other regions. Maybe I’m missing something that says otherwise, but that’s the vibe I got.

For the Teal Mask stuff, it’d probably be better to just scale Kieran and Carmine to whatever tiers their Pokémon scale to. Canonically I don’t think the different levels depending on whether or not you beat the main game mean anything since the species they use are the same, plus it’s a big narrative point that Kieran can’t beat you so it probably doesn’t make much sense for him to be champion level until Indigo Disk.

Also, didn't you forget to mention the spoilery thing in Z-A that grants Mega Evolution power & maybe Hoopa?

Do you mean the final boss of Mega Dimension? Or the main story final boss? For Ange I didn’t think it added to my point much, since you only fight the weird flower things and not the main body. For Mega Heatran, Darkrai and the Weather Trio though those are also good examples. While you’re amped by Hoopa’s donut power while fighting them, they’re also amped by Mega Power so it balances out.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Iirc “champion-ranked trainer” is only in the context of Paldea and isn’t much of a comparison point to other regions. Maybe I’m missing something that says otherwise, but that’s the vibe I got.

For the Teal Mask stuff, it’d probably be better to just scale Kieran and Carmine to whatever tiers their Pokémon scale to. Canonically I don’t think the different levels depending on whether or not you beat the main game mean anything since the species they use are the same, plus it’s a big narrative point that Kieran can’t beat you so it probably doesn’t make much sense for him to be champion level until Indigo Disk.

Forgot to say, but imo endgame SV trainers should probably just be High 6-A, as iirc there was a High 6-A calc for one of Miraidon’s dex entries. I think there was a Koraidon calc as well that was a lower tier but still Tier 6.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Forgot to say, but imo endgame SV trainers should probably just be High 6-A, as iirc there was a High 6-A calc for one of Miraidon’s dex entries. I think there was a Koraidon calc as well that was a lower tier but still Tier 6.

Yeah there was a calc that got 4 petatons

 

[MunchkinGuy]

Why does Magikarp's key say to in the middle?

Shouldn't it be normal Magikarps and then strong and Elder ones with only a comma? Or are there ones in between?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Why does Magikarp's key say to in the middle?

Shouldn't it be normal Magikarps and then strong and Elder ones with only a comma? Or are there ones in between?

There likely would be. Pokemon has a canon levelling system after all.

 

[MunchkinGuy]

There likely would be. Pokemon has a canon levelling system after all.

Should I add this fact to Power of the Verse on the main page?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Should I add this fact to Power of the Verse on the main page?

No, we'd need to discuss any changes or revisions in Content Revision Threads.

 

[Lou_change]

Chapter 13 of the Pokémon Adventures black and white manga confirms some Pokemon keeping certain abilities from previous stages.

 

[Imaginym]

Chapter 13 of the Pokémon Adventures black and white manga confirms some Pokemon keeping certain abilities from previous stages.

How so?