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Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

This thread has made me realize that we should probably start tiering legendaries based on their own feats rather than scaling them to other members of the same species (even in the same continuity). And the fact that the legendary scaling is extremely wonky due to arbitrary rules the wiki has had with Pokemon scaling, like the Hoopa movie being ignored or Pokemon not being allowed to scale to Dialga and Palkia because they don't have any 2-A feats that don't involve scaling
 
The Hoopa movie is mostly explained other than the CT honestly. Also I've never heard of the second rule because that would include characters who can literally defeat Dialga and Palkia in-story.
 
The creation trio is rather consistently get beat up by things that originate from in their creation. We know they can alter reality across dimensions, they're able to threaten reality with their space and time manipulation, and they are able attack Pokemon with their space and time manipulation.
 
Lou_change said:
The creation trio is rather consistently get beat up by things that originate from in their creation.
Click to expand...
This is one of the things that always has bugged me off about them, truth to be told.

One of the main critics against our Pokemon pages that I always saw off-site is that we excuse every instance of the Creation Trio fighting against stuff that isn't themselves as PIS, and the fact that this happens to basically almost all of their fights isn't really good as you generate more PIS than actual feats.

Like, we use the PIS thing if it happens few times compared to a far more consistent showing of superiority, but here we use PIS basically constantly, and the fact that most of the Tier 2 things for them are based on statements is also pretty bad and the skepticism is perfectly understandable at this point.

I believe the main issue is that the Pokemon pages don't exactly do a great job in actually explaining these instances, and we prefer to give essays with no real evidence besides excusing as PIS on why these 3 statements take precedence over the 10+ moments where Dialga and Palkia got their asses kicked from Dragonite, Tauros or whatever other non-legendary Pokemon.

This is NOT meant to be taken as me suggesting any downgrade, just giving a thought of mine on one of the main reasons I've put a temporary pause to my involvement in Pokemon scaling, as imo it should be better to actually analyze the instances of these other Pokemon harming the CT/Arceus to see if it makes sense in the narrative and their other showings rather than just spamming PIS constantly as a way to gatekeep stuff.
 
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StrymULTRA said:
This is one of the things that always has bugged me off about them, truth to be told.

One of the main critics against our Pokemon pages that I always saw off-site is that we excuse every instance of the Creation Trio fighting against stuff that isn't themselves as PIS, and the fact that this happens to basically almost all of their fights isn't really good as you generate more PIS than actual feats.

Like, we use the PIS thing if it happens few times compared to a far more consistent showing of superiority, but here we use PIS basically constantly, and the fact that most of the Tier 2 things for them are based on statements is also pretty bad and the skepticism is perfectly understandable at this point.

I believe the main issue is that the Pokemon pages don't exactly do a great job in actually explaining these instances, and we prefer to give essays with no real evidence besides excusing as PIS on why these 3 statements take precedence over the 10+ moments where Dialga and Palkia got their asses kicked from Dragonite, Tauros or whatever other non-legendary Pokemon.

This is NOT meant to be taken as me suggesting any downgrade, just giving a thought of mine on one of the main reasons I've put a temporary pause to my involvement in Pokemon scaling, as imo it should be better to actually analyze the instances of these other Pokemon harming the CT/Arceus to see if it makes sense in the narrative and their other showings rather than just spamming PIS constantly as a way to gatekeep stuff.
Click to expand...
I share the same sentiment

I feel like this wiki has created arbitrary rules for scaling Pokemon in general. Remember when we rarely scaled trainer owned non legendaries above Island level because almost every instance of scaling to legendaries was considered PIS?
 
StrymULTRA said:
This is one of the things that always has bugged me off about them, truth to be told.

One of the main critics against our Pokemon pages that I always saw off-site is that we excuse every instance of the Creation Trio fighting against stuff that isn't themselves as PIS, and the fact that this happens to basically almost all of their fights isn't really good as you generate more PIS than actual feats.

Like, we use the PIS thing if it happens few times compared to a far more consistent showing of superiority, but here we use PIS basically constantly, and the fact that most of the Tier 2 things for them are based on statements is also pretty bad and the skepticism is perfectly understandable at this point.

I believe the main issue is that the Pokemon pages don't exactly do a great job in actually explaining these instances, and we prefer to give essays with no real evidence besides excusing as PIS on why these 3 statements take precedence over the 10+ moments where Dialga and Palkia got their asses kicked from Dragonite, Tauros or whatever other non-legendary Pokemon.
Click to expand...
I honestly don't think it is entirely unreasonable to say box legendaries are generally comparable to each other, just because these three created reality doesn't mean they are more powerful then everything within their creation as for one I am pretty sure they aren't responsible for creating life given they didn't create spirit.
 
POKEMON VGC WORLDS 2025 DAY 1 HAS BEGUN!!!
Round 1 is underway!
Currently, Round 1, with Paul Ruiz vs Eric Rios has just finished.





I'm a bit late, so I missed watching the opening ceremonies. If you, like me, wanna rewatch them, the YT stream supports rewinding, speeding up & slowing down, so you could jump back to watch the opening ceremonies. It also has live chat available.


Here's hyped that we get some kind of big announcements!
Maybe more info about Pokemon Legends:Z-A?
What's on everyone's mind?
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
I've officially lost hope for Z-A. At least we have Masters to give us actual XY content.
Click to expand...
Mega Victreebel isn't THAT bad....
Surely you don't dislike it that much that learning of it ruins the whole game for you.

Also, it seems like some people got to play a limited demo of Z-A, so there's likely to be news from that, too, soon. There may even be some out already.
 
I am pretty sure it is because he thinks two silly megas and all current story information isn't his cup of tea.
 
I'm gonna vent here for a bit.

Nobody wants Pokemon to win anything.

In the real world, I've had friends go (without my prompting, I should add) "Let's face it, if they fought, Digimon would kinda kick Pokemon's butts." Do I just not exist on the Internet or something? Isn't the whole reason I started picturing a world with Pokemon at the top to prevent something like Death Battle's Pokemon VS Digimon from ever happening again? I've contributed like half the feats we use in the modern day and still it seems like nothing has changed and Pokemon fans are still losers.

Naturally, I've chosen to dive even deeper into my work to combat this. Nobody cares. Nobody wants Pokemon Physiology, nobody wants Battle Styles, nobody wants Psychic Power-hell, nobody even wants the rematch Keys implemented into our decades-outdated profiles.

People just... don't want Pokemon to be strong. Best case scenario is people look at where we have Arceus on the site currently and then run off.

If people actually showed up and the mods actually read and agreed to my CRTs, I would have Pokemon as one of the strongest verses on the site and I would actually be able to focus on my college classes.
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
Naturally, I've chosen to dive even deeper into my work to combat this. Nobody cares. Nobody wants Pokemon Physiology, nobody wants Battle Styles, nobody wants Psychic Power-hell, nobody even wants the rematch Keys implemented into our decades-outdated profiles.

People just... don't want Pokemon to be strong. Best case scenario is people look at where we have Arceus on the site currently and then run off.
Click to expand...
This isn't because people don't want Pokemon to be strong, but rather because we don't want to scale it. This is because of the nature of Pokemon scaling. There's not a sliver of objectivity when it comes to scaling pokemon, it is all weird, inconsistent, wing dings and confusing. It is a painful experience trying to figure out who scales to what and to whom especially with feats contradicting each other constantly.
Then there's the community issue. We have no unity. Many scaling fandoms have an agenda they push through. Bleach scalers pine for Low 1-C, DB scalers the same, Ben 10 scalers go for 1-B or higher. We don't have that unity, we don't have an agenda, we don't have a singular idea of a perfect scaling. Due to that you'll always end up with constant arguments over the series' scaling and there's always going to be some dumbass who will say that his opinion on the scaling is "common sense" when it's not, nothing here is common sense.
Pokemon doesn't care about consistency in power, only in lore, and lore only gets you so far. The popularity brings annoying people to the fray who thankfully usually can't get anything done and thus get ignored. At the same time, they put sticks in the wheels of any upgrade, downgrade, revision ect. In short, trying to scale Pokemon is like like that one moment in Pirates of the Carribean 3 where they can never vote for a pirate king because everyone will vote for themselves. It's frustrating. It isn't satisfying. Most importantly, you end up gaining nothing but workload on top of workload. You push and you push and you just end up being the one to have to do everything if you succeed. I know that. I am the one who put Pokemon in High 7-A when it was struggling to keep its 7-A rating, I was the one who gave Pokemon the Low 7-B and 7-B ratings, I was the one who pushed for Sub-rel and FTL when everyone forgot the accepted CRTs. I barely had any help there. Some helped, Charmander, Clover helped me a bit, but the bigger workload was mine to bear. Heck, after I was done with the revisions I decided to quit the wiki at first. What happened? Nobody applied changes to the rest of the profiles, so I returned and had to do it myself. What's good about this?

In short, we are a divided mess of a fandom in which there is no clear powerscaling due to inconsistency within the verse itself, where you have to deal with a thousand dumbasses telling you that their subjective opinion on subjective scaling is fact and common sense and where you have to basically do everything yourself if you do somehow succeed.
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
I'm gonna vent here for a bit.

Nobody wants Pokemon to win anything.

In the real world, I've had friends go (without my prompting, I should add) "Let's face it, if they fought, Digimon would kinda kick Pokemon's butts." Do I just not exist on the Internet or something? Isn't the whole reason I started picturing a world with Pokemon at the top to prevent something like Death Battle's Pokemon VS Digimon from ever happening again? I've contributed like half the feats we use in the modern day and still it seems like nothing has changed and Pokemon fans are still losers.

Naturally, I've chosen to dive even deeper into my work to combat this. Nobody cares. Nobody wants Pokemon Physiology, nobody wants Battle Styles, nobody wants Psychic Power-hell, nobody even wants the rematch Keys implemented into our decades-outdated profiles.

People just... don't want Pokemon to be strong. Best case scenario is people look at where we have Arceus on the site currently and then run off.
Click to expand...
I think it's that the staff are often busy &/or inattentive of many threads, plus large post numbers are daunting to them, an issue compounded by large quantities of bumps that result from staffs neglecting to evaluate.

There is a lot of your stuff I think would be good to have implemented, but.... Well, I'm a non-staff member, which often makes me feel I can't do much.
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
If people actually showed up and the mods actually read and agreed to my CRTs, I would have Pokemon as one of the strongest verses on the site and I would actually be able to focus on my college classes.
Click to expand...
This is just a hobby. Don't let people talking down what you like stop you enjoying it or believing what you believe is right. There's nothing wrong with having preferences & stances.
But real world you's health & success should come first, so I hope you aren't neglecting your classes. Sorry if I'm being a bit out of place for you, just feeling a bit concerned, & hoping to offer friendly advice.
Stay strong, & good luck.
 
Arceus0x said:
This isn't because people don't want Pokemon to be strong, but rather because we don't want to scale it. This is because of the nature of Pokemon scaling. There's not a sliver of objectivity when it comes to scaling pokemon, it is all weird, inconsistent, wing dings and confusing. It is a painful experience trying to figure out who scales to what and to whom especially with feats contradicting each other constantly.
Then there's the community issue. We have no unity. Many scaling fandoms have an agenda they push through. Bleach scalers pine for Low 1-C, DB scalers the same, Ben 10 scalers go for 1-B or higher. We don't have that unity, we don't have an agenda, we don't have a singular idea of a perfect scaling. Due to that you'll always end up with constant arguments over the series' scaling and there's always going to be some dumbass who will say that his opinion on the scaling is "common sense" when it's not, nothing here is common sense.
Pokemon doesn't care about consistency in power, only in lore, and lore only gets you so far. The popularity brings annoying people to the fray who thankfully usually can't get anything done and thus get ignored. At the same time, they put sticks in the wheels of any upgrade, downgrade, revision ect. In short, trying to scale Pokemon is like like that one moment in Pirates of the Carribean 3 where they can never vote for a pirate king because everyone will vote for themselves. It's frustrating. It isn't satisfying. Most importantly, you end up gaining nothing but workload on top of workload. You push and you push and you just end up being the one to have to do everything if you succeed. I know that. I am the one who put Pokemon in High 7-A when it was struggling to keep its 7-A rating, I was the one who gave Pokemon the Low 7-B and 7-B ratings, I was the one who pushed for Sub-rel and FTL when everyone forgot the accepted CRTs. I barely had any help there. Some helped, Charmander, Clover helped me a bit, but the bigger workload was mine to bear. Heck, after I was done with the revisions I decided to quit the wiki at first. What happened? Nobody applied changes to the rest of the profiles, so I returned and had to do it myself. What's good about this?

In short, we are a divided mess of a fandom in which there is no clear powerscaling due to inconsistency within the verse itself, where you have to deal with a thousand dumbasses telling you that their subjective opinion on subjective scaling is fact and common sense and where you have to basically do everything yourself if you do somehow succeed.
Click to expand...
Gonna be honest for a moment and say that there being no canon split doesn’t help things. There’s dozens of video games, an anime with over a thousand episodes, multiple manga and way more that can all be used for scaling. I know some of us are willing to look through all of it for feats and I respect that a lot, but that’s a lot of content to go through to scale a single verse that already has thousands of characters in it. I personally have no desire to invest myself into parts of the franchise I have little to no interest in when I can instead use my time doing something more enjoyable to me, and I’m sure I’m far from the only one.
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
Gonna be honest for a moment and say that there being no canon split doesn’t help things. There’s dozens of video games, an anime with over a thousand episodes, multiple manga and way more that can all be used for scaling. I know some of us are willing to look through all of it for feats and I respect that a lot, but that’s a lot of content to go through to scale a single verse that already has thousands of characters in it. I personally have no desire to invest myself into parts of the franchise I have little to no interest in when I can instead use my time doing something more enjoyable to me, and I’m sure I’m far from the only one.
Click to expand...
People research Marvel and DC just fine, which have magnitudes more confusing canons, are lower quality, and have even more material.
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
People research Marvel and DC just fine, which have magnitudes more confusing canons, are lower quality, and have even more material.
Click to expand...
You can also focus on SPECIFIC PARTS of Marvel and DC. If you only give a **** about Taskmaster, but not Loki, you don't have to go through Loki's crap. This is what a good 95% of the supporters of both verses do.

You can't just focus on specific parts of Pokémon
 
DaReaperMan said:
You can also focus on SPECIFIC PARTS of Marvel and DC. If you only give a **** about Taskmaster, but not Loki, you don't have to go through Loki's crap. This is what a good 95% of the supporters of both verses do.

You can't just focus on specific parts of Pokémon
Click to expand...
I'm willing to bet that a massive number of them focus on the cosmology since it would have all the strongest characters.

Pokemon pretty much doesn't have a cosmology, so focusing on specific parts is actually exactly what you can do.
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
I'm willing to bet that a massive number of them focus on the cosmology since it would have all the strongest characters.
Click to expand...
Lordtracer, Midas, Emirp, etc. There's like 3 people properly working on cosmology lol
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
Pokemon pretty much doesn't have a cosmology, so focusing on specific parts is actually exactly what you can do.
Click to expand...
If I wanted to focus on just, say, Corviknight, and scaling it, I'd have to go through all final stage lore to scale it.
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
People research Marvel and DC just fine, which have magnitudes more confusing canons, are lower quality, and have even more material.
Click to expand...
yeah and they're worse, they have herald tiers jumping like 10 different tiers from as low as High 6-C to as high as Low 1-C and even High 1-A over the course of the past 4 or so years. It's under constant revisions and the only reason its alive is because the original powerscalers come from Marvel and DC geek culture.
 
Arceus0x said:
yeah and they're worse, they have herald tiers jumping like 10 different tiers from as low as High 6-C to as high as Low 1-C and even High 1-A over the course of the past 4 or so years. It's under constant revisions and the only reason its alive is because the original powerscalers come from Marvel and DC geek culture.
Click to expand...
Even then most of the supporters are inactive or have straight up left the site. Sure, if you put out a CRT its gonna get press, but how many are still actively calculating feats for the verse?
 
LegendariumOfLies said:
Even then most of the supporters are inactive or have straight up left the site. Sure, if you put out a CRT its gonna get press, but how many are still actively calculating feats for the verse?
Click to expand...
I honestly think the site is dying. Sure, there are tons of visitors every month, but how many of them join the forum? Barely any. Sure there are newbies here and there but big shots show less and less activity. People are leaving, or just doing things they care about intimately rather than an entire verse. I think what we're witnessing right now is the slow and painful decline of this forum. People are far less active than they were even a year ago. It's all changing, shifting, until at some point more and more people leave and the place becomes deserted.
I am gonna leave. Heck, I technically already left the site several months ago. I was off the site for 2-3 months before I returned again to revise Godzilla Singular Point. I am still working on it, but once I am done, I will probably vanish yet again.
 
Arceus0x said:
I honestly think the site is dying. Sure, there are tons of visitors every month, but how many of them join the forum? Barely any. Sure there are newbies here and there but big shots show less and less activity. People are leaving, or just doing things they care about intimately rather than an entire verse. I think what we're witnessing right now is the slow and painful decline of this forum. People are far less active than they were even a year ago. It's all changing, shifting, until at some point more and more people leave and the place becomes deserted.
I am gonna leave. Heck, I technically already left the site several months ago. I was off the site for 2-3 months before I returned again to revise Godzilla Singular Point. I am still working on it, but once I am done, I will probably vanish yet again.
Click to expand...
I won't say we are dying, but we are definitely hitting the "lull" for VSBW.
 
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
Those are not the only people who VS debate Marvel and DC.
Click to expand...
And many of others also don't focus on cosmology. Many people focus on street tiers only lmfao
Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera said:
You’d have to do the exact same thing with Marvel or DC.
Click to expand...
Sean, remind me which massive verse that's been going on since the 90s I practically solo support? Because yeah, I scale Warcraft. Imagine if Cynthia got character assassinated into being a cowardly hostile *****, and you have to look into that version of Cynthia.

There is a reason in the blizzard collaboration thread, I put the ******* blizzard video as the first thing people see. These are the people who are so incoherent with their own lore that they made Soujourn's sister pregnant at 14, This ******* catastrophe, among other things. In just Overwatch. Now, I want you to imagine all the bullfuckery that happens in Warcraft. Because that is not a small list.
 
DaReaperMan said:
There is a reason in the blizzard collaboration thread, I put the ******* blizzard video as the first thing people see. These are the people who are so incoherent with their own lore that they made Soujourn's sister pregnant at 14, This ******* catastrophe, among other things. In just Overwatch. Now, I want you to imagine all the bullfuckery that happens in Warcraft. Because that is not a small list.
Click to expand...
You are forgetting the most forgotten verse - Starcraft.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Sean, remind me which massive verse that's been going on since the 90s I practically solo support? Because yeah, I scale Warcraft. Imagine if Cynthia got character assassinated into being a cowardly hostile *****, and you have to look into that version of Cynthia.

There is a reason in the blizzard collaboration thread, I put the ******* blizzard video as the first thing people see. These are the people who are so incoherent with their own lore that they made Soujourn's sister pregnant at 14, This ******* catastrophe, among other things. In just Overwatch. Now, I want you to imagine all the bullfuckery that happens in Warcraft. Because that is not a small list.
Click to expand...

I never denied your contributions to the site.
 
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Do you know how much easier everything would be if I could do everything? I don't even mind that nobody is helping, I just want to be allowed to just fix the Pokemon verse outright. As a guy that Pokemon VS Digimon's release was literally the worst day of my life, I'm actually trying to help everyone before something like that happens again.
 
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