Plato’s allegory of the cave

[Xearsay]

Would a realm having a transcendence in the form of Plato’s allegory of the cave over the entirety of a structure comprised of superior levels, qualify for a higher tier?

And what I mean by Plato’s allegory of the cave, is the lower structure being a shadow casted by a greater realm, which represents the true archetypal reality, that also gives it form and meaning.

 

[Everything12]

Their is a high possibility, though it does depend on exactly how the verse in question explains it.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Would a realm having a transcendence in the form of Plato’s allegory of the cave over the entirety of a structure comprised of superior levels, qualify for a higher tier?

And what I mean by Plato’s allegory of the cave, is the lower structure being a shadow casted by a greater realm, which represents the true archetypal reality, that also gives it form and meaning.

depends on how many levels there is.

 

[Xearsay]

Their is a high possibility, though it does depend on exactly how the verse in question explains it.

What if it’s exactly like how I explained it in the post. As in the entirety of the multi-layered lower structure is just a shadow casted by a formative higher structure.

depends on how many levels there is.

Around 28 levels or 1-B.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

What if it’s exactly like how I explained it in the post. As in the entirety of the multi-layered lower structure is just a shadow casted by a formative higher structure.


Around 28 levels or 1-B.

then its just a higher level of 1B

 

[Everything12]

What if it’s exactly like how I explained it in the post. As in the entirety of the multi-layered lower structure is just a shadow casted by a formative higher structure.


Around 28 levels or 1-B.

Depends exactly what the text says. Full context is needed to give accurate evalutions.

 

[Xearsay]

Depends exactly what the text says. Full context is needed to give accurate evalutions.

Alrighty then. So the structure I was talking about is essentially something called the Astral/spiritual. Here are the links to the scans.

Apokolips and New Genesis are outright described as “kind of platonic, archetypal worlds.”(Batman #702)

While falling from the Astral, Darkseids true form was said to be casting a shadow across the Multiverse.(DC Universe #0) Which alludes to the idea that the entire 1-B material plane, is just a shadow casted by the true reality.

When one dies, the higher self or the “I” ascends into the astral plane. (Doom Patrol #43) This scan also mentions there being something called the “Nagual” and calls it with the formative world. Which further goes into the idea that the Astral gives form to the 1-B material plane of existence.

“Within the Astral there is an archetypal version of Newyork that was described as beneath the skin of reality, Manhattan's dream of itself.” (Doom Patrol #59)

The Silver City is a higher order of reality and has more of everything. Meaning the astral contains more of what the material plane already has but on a higher level.

I just wanted to get a better understanding of how a Plato’s allegory of the cave type transcendence is treated on this site, as I don’t see it used often in some of the more popular tier 1 verses.

 

[Deagonx]

While falling from the Astral, Darkseids true form was said to be casting a shadow across the Multiverse.(DC Universe #0) Which alludes to the idea that the entire 1-B material plane, is just a shadow casted by the true reality.

This scan doesn't allude that at all. It just says Darkseid is casting a shadow over the multiverse. There's nothing in the scan or the story as a whole that suggests that the multiverse is some kind of emanational shadow of a higher reality, but in particular this scan literally has nothing to do with such a concept.

Moreover, Darkseid fell from Apokolips. Not whatever "the Astral" is.

When one dies, the higher self or the “I” ascends into the astral plane. (Doom Patrol #43) This scan also mentions there being something called the “Nagual” and calls it with the formative world. Which further goes into the idea that the Astral gives form to the 1-B material plane of existence.

This scan seems to clearly indicate that the "spirit plane" and the "astral plane" are different locations.

The higher self ascends to the spirit plane, but the lower self -- the astral husk -- descends into the abode of the shells. These husks are all that remain of our human personalities when the higher self ascends. Sometimes these husks hang around on the astral plane, which is what we call ghosts.

Yeah, so clearly the spirit plane is above the astral plane. They aren't the same place.

Also, there's nothing in it about either the spirit plane or astral plane giving form to the physical world. They call the physical world formative, but this suggests the opposite conclusion, as formative does not mean "formed by" but rather "that which forms others."

In the context (our higher and lower selves) I would hazard a guess that the physical world is formative because our experiences there shape who we are, which later splits into our higher spiritual self and our lower astral husk.

But it certainly doesn't support the conclusion you have described.

“Within the Astral there is an archetypal version of Newyork that was described as beneath the skin of reality, Manhattan's dream of itself.” (Doom Patrol #59)

Why is this in quotes? This isn't a quote from the scan. The scan doesn't mention the astral plane at all.

The Silver City is a higher order of reality and has more of everything. Meaning the astral contains more of what the material plane already has but on a higher level

Why are we equating the Silver City and the lower astral husk plane?

I just wanted to get a better understanding of how a Plato’s allegory of the cave type transcendence is treated on this site,

Can't speak to how it's treated, but I can confidently say none of your evidence is indicative of it at all.

If I had to guess, an actual emanational reality like the allegory of the cave would likely be categorized as a single level of infinite transcendence. But it depends on how it's portrayed. They might describe it that way but then show that "higher beings" from the emanating higher reality don't infinitely transcend lower beings, which would mean it isn't infinite transcendence even if it's described as an emanation.

 

[Xearsay]

I honestly don’t know how you drew the conclusion that the Spiritual plane is higher than the astral plane from from that scan. However, it is wrong as the Astral and Spiritual are equated with one another throughout Grant Morrison’s work.

The war of armageddon that was started by the Candlemaker which involved destroying the soul of the world and removing everyone’s spiritual basis, was called a war taking place in Heaven, and would be referenced by the same character as a taking place in the Astral.

Furthermore the Shinning city/Heaven which is a place only spirit can touch, was also called the “astral boundary.”

Additionally they don’t call the physical world formative. They call Nagual which exists in the Astral, the formative world. “…the Nagual, the formative world.”

Also Apokolips and New Genesis were already described as “kind of platonic, archetypal worlds” during Final Crisis. Which goes back to the idea that our reality is only a shadow or image of the true reality of forms. So Darkseids true form casting a shadow over the Orrery would be an example of this theory of forms at play.

 

[Deagonx]

I honestly don’t know how you drew the conclusion that the Spiritual plane is higher than the astral plane from from that scan

It literally says that the higher self is spiritual and the lower self is astral.

The astral husks are what remains of our human personalities and desires. Sometimes these things hang around on the astral plane and interact with the physical world, which is what we consider ghosts.

Plain as day, the astral plane is described as being populated by the shell-like remains of our human desires once of our higher selves ascend into the spirit plane. It literally says "ascends" for spirit plane and "descends" for astral plane.

The war of armageddon that was started by the Candlemaker which involved destroying the soul of the world and removing everyone’s spiritual basis, was called a war taking place in Heaven, and would be referenced by the same character as a taking place in the Astral.

I don't see any evidence that these are referring to the same event, the issues which mentions the "War in Heaven" is a year earlier than the "War of Armageddon" scan, and the "War in Heaven" scan is actually 5 months before Candlemaker was even introduced into DC, there needs to be evidence of them being the same.

They call Nagual which exists in the Astral, the formative world. “…the Nagual, the formative world.”

It says that the husks on the astral plane pick up messages from the formative world, and then connects this to psychics in the physical world. The text makes it clear that the nagual is not part of the astral plane, and it doesn't make sense for it to be in the context, since this page explicitly defines the astral plane as the lower rung of reality.

Also Apokolips and New Genesis were already described as “kind of platonic, archetypal worlds” during Final Crisis. Which goes back to the idea that our reality is only a shadow or image of the true reality of forms. So Darkseids true form casting a shadow over the Orrery would be an example of this theory of forms at play.

There is nothing in the story that suggests that the "shadow" Darkseid was casting over the multiverse was an emanation of himself, and it does not in any way shape or form suggest that the multiverse itself is a shadow. You are writing loads of headcanon to justify these conclusions.

 

[Xearsay]

It literally says that the higher self is spiritual and the lower self is astral.

It calls the lower self the astral husk, not astral. There’s a difference because because the person in the scan is speaking in the context of the astral body. Which is the idea that the after death the spiritual soul will leave the physical body and go on ascensions through higher realms in it’s astral body.

So when it says the “astral husk” it’s talking about the remnant or remains of the astral body. As the higher self is the astral body that is ascending, and the lower self is the remains of that astral body, aka the astral husk.

I don't see any evidence that these are referring to the same event, the issues which mentions the "War in Heaven" is a year earlier than the "War of Armageddon" scan, and the "War in Heaven" scan is actually 5 months before Candlemaker was even introduced into DC, there needs to be evidence of them being the same.

First of all, allow me to correct myself. The War of Armageddon wasn’t actually started by the Candlemaker, Kipling was just referencing an event that would happen in the future. However, the scans do still reference the war of Armageddon or Heaven taking place in the Astral where the Candlemaker was destroying the archetypal version of New York.

It says that the husks on the astral plane pick up messages from the formative world, and then connects this to psychics in the physical world. The text makes it clear that the nagual is not part of the astral plane, and it doesn't make sense for it to be in the context, since this page explicitly defines the astral plane as the lower rung of reality.

It says “Sometimes they hang out on the Astral plane, picking up messages from the Nagual, the formative world.” Meaning the astral husks are in the astral while picking up stuff from the Nagual. If I say “sometimes I hang out in New York, picking up food from restaurants.” That would mean the restaurants are in New York, not in separate places.

Also nowhere in the scan does it even mention people with psychic powers so I don’t even know where you’re getting that from.

There is nothing in the story that suggests that the "shadow" Darkseid was casting over the multiverse was an emanation of himself, and it does not in any way shape or form suggest that the multiverse itself is a shadow. You are writing loads of headcanon to justify these conclusions.

That’s not what I said. I said that Apokolips and New Genesis are kind of platonic, archetypal realities, which is the idea that our reality is only a shadow or image of the true reality of forms. And that Darkseids true form casting a shadow across the entire Multiverse is a reference to this theory.

 

[Deagonx]

It calls the lower self the astral husk, not astral

Astral is an adjective. The astral husks are on the astral plane, also called the abode of the shells. From that plane they receive messages from the Nagual.

There’s a difference because because the person in the scan is speaking in the context of the astral body. Which is the idea that the after death the spiritual soul will leave the physical body and go on ascensions through higher realms in it’s astral body.

So when it says the “astral husk” it’s talking about the remnant or remains of the astral body. As the higher self is the astral body that is ascending, and the lower self is the remains of that astral body, aka the astral husk.

This is headcanon. The actual comic simply says that the "higher self" ascends to the spirit plane, and the "lower self" descends to the astral plane, as a husk. There's no "astral body" and the scan makes it exceptionally clear that the spirit plane is higher than the astral plane.

First of all, allow me to correct myself. The War of Armageddon wasn’t actually started by the Candlemaker, Kipling was just referencing an event that would happen in the future. However, the scans do still reference the war of Armageddon or Heaven taking place in the Astral where the Candlemaker was destroying the archetypal version of New York.

Again, I have not seen any indication that the "War in Heaven" and the "War of Armageddon" are referring to the same event.

Meaning the astral husks are in the astral while picking up stuff from the Nagual. If I say “sometimes I hang out in New York, picking up food from restaurants.” That wouldn’t mean the restaurants are in New York, not in separate places.

If you say "I was in New York, and picked up a message from China" that doesn't mean China is in New York, they're separate places.

The scan is pretty overt that the messages they are receiving, and the ones they send, traverse a planal barrier, since these messages are described as what psychic mediums pick up on. Even if you reject this reasoning, the simple fact remains that the scan does not assert that the Nagual is part of the Astral Plane and assuming that is purely an assumption.

Also nowhere in the scan does it even mention people with psychic powers so I don’t even know where you’re getting that from.

"Bugging sensitives and mediums with their crazy meaningless talk."

The word "medium" refers to someone who has the ability to commune with spirits. This is considered a psychic ability, and practitioners are often called psychics.

Mediumship - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I said that Apokolips and New Genesis are kind of platonic, archetypal realities, which is the idea that our reality is only a shadow or image of the true reality of forms.

No. There is nothing in DC that at all suggests that the multiverse is a shadow of Apokolips or New Genesis, and the in-canon information we have about the Sphere makes it incredibly clear that it is not, and that the beliefs of the multiverse are actually what's responsible for the Sphere, not the other way around.

And that Darkseids true form casting a shadow across the entire Multiverse is a reference to this theory

This is purely an assumption. There's no evidence of it being a reference to platonism, and the word "shadow" is an incredibly common term and isn't even particularly common in discussions about platonic ideals, it's only ever used in reference to the allegory of the cave.

 

[Xearsay]

Astral is an adjective. The astral husks are on the astral plane, also called the abode of the shells. From that plane they receive messages from the Nagual.

The “abode of shells” is never equated with the Astral plane. Your false interpretation of this one scan literally goes against every other piece of evidence that proves they’re the same. Such as the Shinning city/Heaven which is a place only spirit can touch, being called the “astral boundary.”

This is headcanon. The actual comic simply says that the "higher self" ascends to the spirit plane, and the "lower self" descends to the astral plane, as a husk. There's no "astral body" and the scan makes it exceptionally clear that the spirit plane is higher than the astral plane.

The actual comic is literally speaking in context of these ideas. The remnant parts from one’s self that has ascended to higher planes, being defined as an astral husk indicates that there must be an astral body.

Again, I have not seen any indication that the "War in Heaven" and the "War of Armageddon" are referring to the same event.

That’s because you haven’t read the scans I posted. And I know you haven’t because you tried claiming that they all came before the Candlemaker was introduced despite two of them literally referencing the Candlemaker. If you actually took the time to read the scans you’d see that the same character(Kipling) is touching upon there being some type of war that will happen in the near future, describing it in same way and using the same or similar terminology to refer to said war.

If you say "I was in New York, and picked up a message from China" that doesn't mean China is in New York, they're separate places.

The scan is pretty overt that the messages they are receiving, and the ones they send, traverse a planal barrier, since these messages are described as what psychic mediums pick up on. Even if you reject this reasoning, the simple fact remains that the scan does not assert that the Nagual is part of the Astral Plane and assuming that is purely an assumption..

I disagree that psychics picking up on what the ghosts” are doing prove there’s some type of “planal barrier” but I will say the Nagual is probably not actually referring to the Astral. Instead itreferring to the Implicate Order, based off other pieces of evidence.

No. There is nothing in DC that at all suggests that the multiverse is a shadow of Apokolips or New Genesis, and the in-canon information we have about the Sphere makes it incredibly clear that it is not, and that the beliefs of the multiverse are actually what's responsible for the Sphere, not the other way around.

Yes there is. They’re literally called Platonic and archetypal worlds. Which is a reference to the theory of forms which is the idea that “the physical realm of things, the one we experience through our senses, is only a shadow, or image, of the true reality of the realm of Forms.”

This is purely an assumption. There's no evidence of it being a reference to platonism, and the word "shadow" is an incredibly common term and isn't even particularly common in discussions about platonic ideals, it's only ever used in reference to the allegory of the cave.

Darkseid having a true form that casts a shadow over the entire physical world while falling from a kind of platonic and archetypal world isn’t a reference to platonism? Lmao.

Also lol at the idea that it’s just a coincidence Grant Morrison used the word true form and shadow to describe Darkseid falling from his native platonic and archetypal world.

 

[Deagonx]

The “abode of shells” is never equated with the Astral plane.

Yes it is, directly. After mentioning that the higher self goes to the Spirit Plane, the conversation goes to the lower self, the astral husk. Everything that is said from that point on describes the Astral Husks, this is plain to see in the scan itself.

The lower self, the astral husk, descends into the abode of the shells. These astral worm-casts are all that remain of our human personalities. Sometimes they hang around on the astral plane, picking up messages from the formative world, those are what we call ghosts, bugging mediums with their crazy talk.

Lower self = astral husk = astral worm-cast = they = ghosts

abode of the shells = astral plane.

This isn't even an interpretation, the scan clearly and directly says this. The lower self, the astral husks descend, and they hang around on the astral plane. The higher self ascends to the spirit plane.

That’s because you haven’t read the scans I posted. And I know you haven’t because you tried claiming that they all came before the Candlemaker was introduced despite two of them literally referencing the Candlemaker.

No, I didn't. I said the "war in Heaven" scan comes before Candlemaker. And it does, the comic issue where the "War in Heaven" is mentioned is 5 months before Candlemaker was even introduced, and a year before the "war of armageddon."

I have seen no evidence to suggest they're the same thing.

I disagree that psychics picking up on what the ghosts” are doing prove there’s some type of “planal barrier” but I will say the Nagual is probably not actually referring to the Astral. Instead itreferring to the Implicate Order, based off other pieces of evidence.

The astral husks picking up on messages from the Nagual is immediately connected to human psychic mediums on Earth. Mediumship literally refers to communicating with the spirits of the dead. The scan makes it clear that what mediums are actually communicating with are the astral husks, the remains of our personalities once our higher self ascends to the spirit plane. Mediumship definitionally refers to communicating with another plane.

If the messages from the Nagual are immediately connected with mediums, it logically follows that the Nagual is wherever these mediums are. If not, why would astral husks in the astral plane, picking up messages from the formative world, send messages to a third completely unmentioned place? That's an unreasonable approach, clearly the mediums are in the formative world. Which makes perfect sense in the context, as formative is defined as:

serving to form something, especially having a profound and lasting influence on a person's development.

In the context of astral husks, which are the remains of our human personalities, the physical world is "formative" insofar as our human experiences shape our personalities. The higher self abandons the astral husks, the lower self picks up messages from the world that formed it.

Yes there is. They’re literally called Platonic and archetypal worlds. Which is a reference to the theory of forms which is the idea that “the physical realm of things, the one we experience through our senses, is only a shadow, or image, of the true reality of the realm of Forms.”

The fact that Darkseid was called platonic once does not overwrite the wealth of information we have about how the Sphere works in relation to the Multiverse.

Darkseid having a true form that casts a shadow over the entire physical world while falling from a kind of platonic and archetypal world isn’t a reference to platonism? Lmao.

You've provided literally no evidence of that being the case. Saying "lmao" because I did not accept your completely unjustified assumption does not change the fact that you don't have evidence.

All it says is that Darkseid is casting a shadow over the multiverse. All this ad hoc headcanon about this being a reference to the allegory of the cave is something you came up with.

Also lol at the idea that it’s just a coincidence Grant Morrison used the word true form and shadow to describe Darkseid falling from his native platonic and archetypal world.

You are grossly overestimating how much the word "shadow" is connected to platonism. And the scan with the word "shadow" does not say "true form."

Plato (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Platonism in Metaphysics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Form vs. Matter (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

Go ahead and find the word "shadow" in Stanford's pages about Platonism and Forms. Here's a hint, you won't find it.

Once again, saying "lol" at your assumptions not being agreed with doesn't change it. Literally all you have is the word shadow and a set of assumptions. There is no indication in all of DC that the multiverse is an emanation of the realm of the New Gods or of the Sphere, there is ample information directly stating that this is not the case.

And moreover, Morrison didn't use the word true form and shadow to describe Darkseid falling. Just shadow. The phrase "true form" doesn't appear at all in DCU #0, and I'm not even aware of it appearing in Final Crisis off the top of my head.

 

[Xearsay]

The lower self, the astral husk, descends into the abode of the shells. These astral worm-casts are all that remain of our human personalities. Sometimes they hang around on the astral plane, picking up messages from the formative world, those are what we call ghosts, bugging mediums with their crazy talk.

Lower self = astral husk = astral worm-cast = they = ghosts

abode of the shells = astral plane.

This isn't even an interpretation, the scan clearly and directly says this. The lower self, the astral husks descend, and they hang around on the astral plane. The higher self ascends to the spirit plane.

That’s not what it says. It says the husks descend into the abode(home) of shells(the husks). It then in a separate sentence says sometimes they hang around on the Astral Plane. Meaning the Astral Plane is not their home but a place they “sometimes hang around on.”

Also I don’t know why you’re ignoring the fact that there is literally other evidence that connects the Astral with the spiritual, but I will keep mentioning it until you address it.

The idea being referenced in this scan is the Astral body, which talks about how after death the spiritual soul will leave the physical body and go on ascensions through higher realms in it’s astral body.

And we also know that the Shinning city/Heaven which is a place only spirit can touch, was called the “astral boundary.”

So your interpretation that the Astral and the spiritual are separate planes doesn’t align with the very underlying ideas at play and contradicts other material.

No, I didn't. I said the "war in Heaven" scan comes before Candlemaker. And it does, the comic issue where the "War in Heaven" is mentioned is 5 months before Candlemaker was even introduced, and a year before the "war of armageddon."

I have seen no evidence to suggest they're the same thing.

My fault then. Either way though, it’s the same character alluding to the same event that will take place in the future. And we know this because in both instances the same character defines them as as “the apocalypse” and a “war between good and evil.”

If the messages from the Nagual are immediately connected with mediums, it logically follows that the Nagual is wherever these mediums are. If not, why would astral husks in the astral plane, picking up messages from the formative world, send messages to a third completely unmentioned place? That's an unreasonable approach, clearly the mediums are in the formative world. Which makes perfect sense in the context, as formative is defined as:

Loud and wrong. During Animal Man Grant Morrison would equate Nagual with the Implicate Order. So you can throw this whole guess work interpretation away.

The fact that Darkseid was called platonic once does not overwrite the wealth of information we have about how the Sphere works in relation to the Multiverse.

You haven’t provided any information from Grants cosmology that contradicts the Astral/Spiritual/Godsphere being a kind of platonic and archetypal realm. So please give it a rest.

You've provided literally no evidence of that being the case. Saying "lmao" because I did not accept your completely unjustified assumption does not change the fact that you don't have evidence.

All it says is that Darkseid is casting a shadow over the multiverse. All this ad hoc headcanon about this being a reference to the allegory of the cave is something you came up with.

Yes, let’s just ignore the part where it mentions that Darkseid is a native of a kind of platonic and archetypal world. And that his true form casting a shadow over the Multiverse was actually just coincidental word usage by Grant Morrison.

Go ahead and find the word "shadow" in Stanford's pages about Platonism and Forms. Here's a hint, you won't find it.

Found it in under 20 seconds. And not only does this one use the word shadow but it also references the allegory of the cave.

Plato’s Middle Period Metaphysics and Epistemology (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Deagonx]

It says the husks descend into the abode(home) of shells(the husks). It then in a separate sentence says sometimes they hang around on the Astral Plane. Meaning the Astral Plane is not their home but a place they “sometimes hang around on.”

Not at all. The "abode of the shells" is in quotes in the scan, unlike any other mention of a place. The very next place mentioned is the astral plane, which means that's the abode. We also know the inhabitants of the abode of the shells are astral husks, so it stands to reason they're on the astral plane.

We know for a fact that the astral husks aren't on the spirit plane. So we'd have to assume that he just brings up this yet-unmentioned location that shares a description with the husks (the astral husks and the astral plane) and that this place isn't their home, which is far-fetched.

Even if we did make this leap, the end-result wouldn't change, we know that the higher self ascends and the lower self descends, so if the lower self hangs around on the astral plane sometimes, that location is still descension, unless we manufacture some headcanon to say that when they're "sometimes hanging around on the astral plane" that they actually ascend back up with the higher self or some such nonsense, but there's nothing suggesting that at all.

Also I don’t know why you’re ignoring the fact that there is literally other evidence that connects the Astral with the spiritual, but I will keep mentioning it until you address it.

Other scans do not change what this scan says. The scan in question is far more explicit than any of the others, directly stating that the astral plane is below the spirit plane. Vague references to an "astral boundary" beyond Heaven in a completely different comic don't change the fact that the astral plane is a descension after death.

So your interpretation that the Astral and the spiritual are separate planes doesn’t align with the very underlying ideas at play and contradicts other material.

It is not an interpretation. The scan explicitly states this.

Either way though, it’s the same character alluding to the same event that will take place in the future

The War in Heaven was about something currently happening.

Loud and wrong. During Animal Man Grant Morrison would equate Nagual with the Implicate Order. So you can throw this whole guess work interpretation away.

Good for Animal Man. That doesn't change what this scan says. Logically it can be clearly deduced that the physical world is the Nagual, and it fits in the context for this to be formative, relative to the astral husks that are interacting with it. Some unrelated comic book having a professor say what the Yaqui called the Nagual doesn't mean that we ignore what this scan actually says. And the guy saying this literally plucks astral husks from the astral plane, he's not just spitballing about various the myths of various cultures that he remembers.

You haven’t provided any information from Grants cosmology that contradicts the Astral/Spiritual/Godsphere being a kind of platonic and archetypal realm. So please give it a rest.

Yes I have. Platonic ideals are eternal and unchanging. Darkseid has been destroyed. Apokokips was created. They cannot be platonic.

Moreover, we have clearly established that the astral plane and the spirit plane are separate, and you've shown nothing that suggests the god sphere is connected to either of those things. Further, we literally know that human belief creates the sphere and it's inhabitants, not the other way around.

Yes, let’s just ignore the part where it mentions that Darkseid is a native of a kind of platonic and archetypal world. And that his true form casting a shadow over the Multiverse was actually just coincidental word usage by Grant Morrison

It is not stated anywhere that Darkseid's true form was casting a shadow. The term "true form" does not appear in that comic at all, or Final Crisis as far as I'm aware. None of your scans have the phrase "true form" in it.

Found it in under 20 seconds. And not only does this one use the word shadow but it also references the allegory of the cave.

Yes, in a page directly describing the allegory of the cave. The word "shadow" is not by itself indicative of platonism, as evidenced by the fact that the main 3 pages on Platonism on the website don't even mention the word, and it's only mentioned a couple of times on the page that actually has these allegories. Not nearly strong enough of a connection to be making these giant assumptions.

 

[Xearsay]

Not at all. The "abode of the shells" is in quotes in the scan, unlike any other mention of a place. The very next place mentioned is the Astral Plane, which means that's the abode. We also know the inhabitants of the abode of the shells are Astral husks, so it stands to reason theure on the astral plane.

We know for a fact that the Astral husks aren't on the spirit plane. So we'd have to assume the Astral plane is a new place that's unmentioned. Regardless, we know the husks descend and higher self ascends. Which means the Astral plane is still lower than the spirit plane even if we accepted this far fetched theory.

How does the Astral being mentioned a couple sentences after the “abode of shells” prove the abode of shells = Astral plane?

There’s nothing that says the husks can’t hang around on the spiritual plane. Only that upon one’s death the husks descends into the abode of shells.

Other scans do not change what this scan says.

Not my argument. I’m saying your interpretation of this scan contradicts other pieces of evidence which we know support the Astral plane and spiritual plane being the same thing.

The War in Heaven was about something currently happening.

Ok. My main point still stands. Kipling in both instances defines the war as “the apocalypse” and a war between good and evil.

Good for Animal Man. That doesn't change what this scan says. Logically it can be clearly deduced that the physical world is the nagual, and it fits in the context. Some unrelated comic book having a professor theorize about the nagual doesn't change this.

What is it that you said earlier? Oh right, “the scan I posted is far more explicit than the others.” The Animal Man scan explicitly calls the Nagual the Implicate Order, yours doesn’t.

Also why would a random person who works for the government be trust worthy but an actual physicist not be trustworthy when it comes to these topics?

Yes i have. Platonic ideals are eternal and unchanging. Darkseid has been destroyed. Apokokips was created. They cannot be platonic.

Ok well then that’s simply an attribute of Plato’s theory of forms that Morrison did not include.

It is not stated anywhere that Darkseids true form was casting a shadow.

You do realize when I say Darkseids “true form” I’m just talking about Darkseid without emanations right? As after Darkseid died and fell on the Multiverse during Final Crisis, Nix Uotan freed him and it would be stated that Darkseid would have to rebuild his godhead. However if you still think for some reason that it was one of Darkseids emanations that was casting the shadow, go ahead. You’d only be making this situation worse for yourself.

Yes, in a page directly describing the allegory of the cave. The word "shadow" is not by itself indicative of platonism.

If the word “shadow” is being used in Stanfords pages on platonism and forms, then why did you lie and claim that I won’t find the the word in any of his pages?

Deagonx - “Go ahead and find the word "shadow" in Stanford's pages about Platonism and Forms. Here's a hint, you won't find it.”

Also I’m not saying the word shadow is indicative of platonism. My argument was that knowing the New Gods are described as living ideas from a kind of platonic and archetypal world in context of Final Crisis, Darkseid(a New God) casting a shadow over the Multiverse would be alluding to plato’s theory of forms at play. Your argument that it has nothing to do with platonism despite platonism being referenced, and that it’s just a coincidence that the true form of an idea from a platonic, archetypal world was casting a shadow over the Multiverse, doesn’t make any sense.

 

[Deagonx]

How does the Astral being mentioned a couple sentences after the “abode of shells” prove the abode of shells = Astral plane?

I explained it very clearly, and my explanation was not "the astral plane was mentioned after the abode of the shells therefore they're the same thing." If you want to take a shot at addressing my actual argument rather than this half-baked strawman, be my guest. If not, the point stands.

There’s nothing that says the husks can’t hang around on the spiritual plane.

The scan very clearly delineats the fate of ones "higher self" and "lower self." One ascends to the spirit plane, the other descends to the astral plane. Some ad hoc rationalization that the lower husks can ascend too, in order to justify this clear error in your reasoning, is just headcanon and there's no basis for it in the scan.

I’m saying your interpretation of this scan contradicts other pieces of evidence which we know support the Astral plane and spiritual plane being the same thing.

You haven't posted a single other scan which uses the phrase "spirit plane" or "astral plane" and what I am saying is not an interpretation, the scan clearly states this. If you want to say that this scan contradicts other scans, sure, contradictory scans occur all the time, but this is not a matter of interpretation. The text is blatantly clear about this.

Ok. My main point still stands. Kipling in both instances define the war as “the apocalypse” and a war between good and evil.

None of your scans show Kipling describing the war of armageddon as "between good and evil" and again, the war in Heaven was an ongoing event when Kipling mentioned it. The war of armageddon was not.

What is it that you said earlier? Oh right, “the scan I posted is far more explicit than the others.” The Animal Man scan explicitly calls the Nagual the Implicate Order, yours does’t.

Good for Animal Man? And all James said was that the Yaqui called it the Nagual. He was just recalling a myth he had heard.

Ok well then that’s simply an attribute of Plato’s theory of forms that Morrison did not include.

Great, so they aren't platonic by definition.

You do realize when I say Darkseids “true form” I’m just talking about Darkseid without emanations right?

You literally said he "used the term true form." He didn't use the term true form. The term true form does not appear anywhere in the comic.

However if you still think for some reason that it was one of Darkseids emanations that was casting the shadow, go ahead. You’d only be making this situation worse for yourself.

No one said that. Stop strawmanning.

If the word “shadow” is being used in Stanfords pages on platonism and forms, then why did you lie and claim that I won’t find the the word in any of his pages?

I didn't lie at all. The page you pulled up was "Plato's Middle Period" not about forms or platonism as a whole.

Also I’m not saying the word shadow is indicative of platonism. My argument was that knowing the New Gods are described as living ideas from a kind of platonic and archetypal world in context of Final Crisis, Darkseid(a New God) casting a shadow over the Multiverse would be alluding to plato’s theory of forms at play.

Your assumption that this is referring to the theory of forms is simply that, an assumption. The word "shadow" is extremely vague and isn't a key feature of the theory of forms. If you want to say you believe it refers to that, sure, but you have no evidence at all.

Your argument that it has nothing to do with platonism despite platonism being referenced, and that it’s just a coincidence that the true form of an idea from a platonic, archetypal world was casting a shadow over the Multiverse, doesn’t make any sense.

It makes perfect sense. To start with, this scan was well well before he ever mentioned the word "platonic" and even if we tried to examine this through the lens of platonism, it'd make no sense. The "shadow" is an emanation in the allegory of the cave. Are we saying Darkseid's trueform is casting an emanation into the multiverse? No. The "shadow" is not shown to represent anything other than a bad omen of what was to come, so trying to connect it to an allegory in which a "shadow" is a lower form of a higher reality is nonsense, there's no lower form of darkseid involved in the story. And none of these mental gymnastics would support your claim that the multiverse is an emanation from the sphere, because there's no evidence of that, and we know it's actually the other way around, the sphere is a reflection of earthly myths and beliefs. We also know these realms aren't platonic, so trying to assume that it has all of the characteristics of a platonic form is also flawed because we know that it does not.

 

[Xearsay]

I explained it very clearly, and my explanation was not "the astral plane was mentioned after the abode of the shells therefore they're the same thing.

“The very next place mentioned is the Astral Plane, which means that's the abode.”

The scan very clearly delineats the fate of ones "higher self" and "lower self."

Ok and? It’s not like the scan states they’re confined to this “abode of shells” place. It’s merely their residency. You’re acting like it’s impossible for these husks to travel to different places.

You haven't posted a single other scan which uses the phrase "spirit plane" or "astral plane" and what I am saying is not an interpretation, the scan clearly states this.

The Astral or the Astral Plane, there’s literally no difference between the two. Also we know the shinning city/Heaven is of the spiritual plane because it’s the place where spirits ascend into after death. And this same shinning city that exist was directly called the Astral boundary in the scans I posted. So spiritual plane = Astral.

Good for Animal Man? And all James said was that the Yaqui called it the Nagual. He was just recalling a myth he had heard.

Don’t dodge the question. Why would a random person who works for the government be trustworthy on the afterlife, but an actual physicist not be trust worthy when it comes to the Implicate Order?

Great, so they aren't platonic by definition.

The definition of platonic in this context is just to be associated with Plato’s ideas. And Morrison still incorporated Plato’s theory of forms into Final Crisis as evident from Apokolips and New Genesis being the platonic, archetypal reality where the New Gods exists, acting as the universals/forms who’s emanations are the equivalent of the Multiverse

However what Morrison didn’t do was mirror all the characteristics of the universals/forms over onto the New Gods. Which is fine because works of fiction are always going to apply philosophical theories in their own unique ways. And for this reason we have to analyze it from a case by case standpoint of how each work represents the ideas they’re introducing.

You literally said he "used the term true form." He didn't use the term true form. The term true form does not appear anywhere in the comic.

Not once in this thread did I say the word “true form” was explicitly stated in the comics.

No one said that. Stop strawmanning.

Ironic. Also I didn’t strawman you. We know that Darkseid who exists as either a Godhead(what people call his true form) or through an emanation, casted a shadow over the Multiverse during Final Crisis. However you said that it wasn’t the true form of Darkseid that casted the shadow

Deagonx - “It is not stated anywhere that Darkseids true form was casting a shadow.”

Meaning you have to either think it was his emanations who casted the shadow or you think Darkseid wasn’t the one casting the shadow at all. Either stance is essentially picking your poison, so go ahead.

I didn't lie at all. The page you pulled up was "Plato's Middle Period" not about forms or platonism as a whole.

It said “Plato’s Middle Period, Metaphysics and Epistemology.” And there are multiple parts of the page that talk about forms and Plato’s theory. Literally the first several topics focus on his metaphysics and gaining a better understanding of the nature of forms.

1. The Background to Plato's Metaphysics
2. The Metaphysics of the Phaedo
3. The Nature of Forms: Self-Predication
4. The Simplicity of Forms
5. The Separation of Forms
6. The Range of Forms

You are literally on a lying spree right now.

Your assumption that this is referring to the theory of forms is simply that, an assumption. The word "shadow" is extremely vague and isn't a key feature of the theory of forms. If you want to say you believe it refers to that, sure, but you have no evidence at all.

It’s not an assumption. The New Gods being described as living ideas from a kind of platonic and archetypal world in context of Final Crisis, directly proves Plato’s theories are at play within the story. Darkseid who is an idea from these platonic, archetypal worlds casting a shadow over the Multiverse is just the icing on the cake.

The "shadow" is an emanation in the allegory of the cave. Are we saying Darkseid's trueform is casting an emanation into the multiverse? No. The "shadow" is not shown to represent anything other than a bad omen of what was to come, so trying to connect it to an allegory in which a "shadow" is a lower form of a higher reality is nonsense, there's no lower form of darkseid involved in the story.

The shadow or emanation of Darkseid, was said to be “casted across the entire Multiverse” and “falling over everything.” Meaning the shadow of an idea(Darkseid) from a kind of platonic, archetypal world was either equivalent in size or greater than the Multiverse. Meaning no matter what way you look at it, the Multiverse can be seen as the equal to an emanation of the ideas that exist in the kind of platonic, archetypal reality.