Photoshop Flowey downgrade

[Pplherearemad]

Chara doesn't ask for soul of the Frisk, he asks for the soul of the player. Why would he ask for something he already owns?

Ability to use saves is nothing compared to Chara, not even manipulating six of them at once, he destroyed timespace continuum and exists outside of them. Ability to use saves can be possesed even by a child struggling against monsters in ruins, being able to use it doesn't mean that rest of your powers work on the same scale.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Aww. Nothing but the site of always looking at Undertale threads regarding Flowey and Chara.

That's all i'm gonna say here.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Frisk and "the player" are, at many points, completely indivisible. It's safer to say Chara owns Frisk's soul, as they are the one who is always followed and possessed throughout all subsequent runs.

It's not just the ability to use saves. It's the fact he can actively manipulate and merge them while still being alive. Frisk can create save points and load, and can only maintain a single save, at a time. That is vastly different. There's also the fact that Frisk is far from just a regular child, and is instead a pretty good example on the full power of a human soul.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Frisk and player are definitely separate beings. After pacifist ending Flowey asks you to not perform reset and leave Frisk alone. You can't sell Frisk soul to Chara because you are not the one in control, when you reach Asgore you don't even press any buttons, you watch everything like a movie. If you were Frisk you couldn't even say no to him at this point.

1 soul - 1save slot 6 souls - 6 save slots, it's completely identical power to the one you have in game only tuned up a bit

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Which is why I said "at many points", not "always". The post genocide conversation can very well be treated as Chara talking to Frisk, since Frisk's soul is the only one Chara ever takes control of. This would also make sense due to the fact that it should be Frisk's soul Chara takes so that they don't have to possess them again in the next timeline.

It's not identical, though. Like I said before, Frisk can only create saves and load them while they are dead/not part of the timeline. Photoshop Flowey can overlap these timelines, have them affect his enemy while not affecting himself, and do so while he's still alive. Also, Flowey has a save slot with 0 souls, so there's that.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Why would Frisk still be present? Chara just destroyed a game. And why would Chara ask him for permission to take his soul? He previously had total control over him.

It's better ability to save but it's still only ability to save, being really good at game you live in doesn't make you stronger than someone who considers existence of it pointless and can simply erase it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because Frisk still has a disembodied consciousness which allows them to load saves. Also, again, this is one of those cases in which Frisk and the player are treated as indivisible instead of distinctly separate entities. There's also the fact that, were the world to be reset without Chara having been given Frisk's soul, they would no longer have it. Ever reset after killing Sans but before selling your soul to Chara? Because it resets their influence to 0. Being given control over Frisk's soul would allow them to remain, even in pacifist timelines, which is what is shown in post-genocide pacifist endings.

My argument wasn't that ability is > destroying existence. Simply that it shows Flowey also has a pretty solid mastery over existence. Also, you still have no answered as to why it's possible Flowey hadn't already destroyed existence (since when you load, nothing is there, even before combat starts), and souls have full well shown the capacity to bring back the world in its exact state, even after its destruction.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Just game doesn't always make distinction between them it doesn't mean that they are the same person. You are often called Chara and Chara is your antagonist.

I already told that ability to save by default allows user to change reality by orders of maginitude larger scale than he is normaly capable of but beside warping time it has no other uses. Flowey outside casually of warping time at universe level might not even be able to blow up planet at this point. Just because you walk in empty space it doesn't mean that world was destroyed. Exit from underground looks just like that. Chara speaks to you in empty space before world was destroyed. You meat Flowey after exiting ruin in place that looks like empty space too. Dark places in game look the same. Every time something major is destroyed it's explicitly mentioned. Flowey even tells you that he has plans for the world. How stubborn can you be? Souls haven't shown ability to bring world back, i never me person that believes that world was destroyed in the first place.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You are only called Chara by Flowey/Asriel, and that's because you look so much alike and they're projecting Chara onto you. To my knowledge, nobody else ever refers to you as Chara/whatever name you choose. Chara certainly doesn't.

The difference here is that you're not just in a dark room. Your save itself is now an actual object in this room, so clearly something is different. There's also the fact that the game has now become "FLOWEYTALE" and is no longer what it used to be. The game itself has been altered.

Also, even if you want to ignore the Flowey example...AND the Chara example, Asriel still uses the power of souls to bring the world back. The world which he himself destroyed. It's directly in the game.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Changing game name is unquantifiable, Sans attacks you in the menu and leaves you a message during game over screen after tricking you, what it tells about his tier? Undertale is canonically a game and things like that just happen.

Asriel uses infinitely greater power of 7 human souls. Flowey is best left as unknown instead of slapping arbitrary place in tier list on him. I mean using controversial interpretation of events, stating that he is much stronger than Chara Despite that he never affected him and placing him at 2-A by scalling? C'mon.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Changing the game is far from unquantifiable. It depends entirely on just how much the game is changed. Changing the structure of the entire thing is much different than warping attacks into your opponent's menu.

Asriel uses the power of souls. The was literally the entire point on souls bringing the world back. Chara did the same thing with less than Asriel's power. I don't think it's far fetched to say Flowey could do the same.

Again, Flowey's scaling isn't arbitrary. Everything about it can be assumed logically, and hell, the fact that he has six souls and is supposedly level 9999 should be enough to put him well above and beyond where Chara was at the end of the game.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Chara is abstract concept from the real world and has power that supposedly reaches beyond undertale verse, he might as well be stronger than god Asriel.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Chara is an abstract concept that can reach beyond the verse, but quite a few things can. Didn't you yourself say earlier that Undertale has very little 4th wall? Chara's power is also supplied by something in-verse, so they are clearly not under complete control, all the time. Not to mention, as I said before, they can only take control if you let them. They cannot forcefully take your soul. They hold you hostage until you give it to them.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Of course he can't because it's soul of the player and not random fictional human. Chara is the very feeling you get when number increases, he erases undertale verse and asks you to move to other game so he can accompany you there. Asriel has 4th wall awareness but he is limited to one game and is desperate to make keep playing it while it means nothing to Chara.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Having higher range than someone else does not automatically make you stronger. Chara can access other worlds, but this does not necessarily equate to them being more powerful than Asriel, especially since their power is dependant on the player's will to kill.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Chara is definied as the part of the real world. Fictional omnipotence wouldn't be enough to get rid of him. God can't take away feeling from your head.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

...Chara is still a fictional character. See Reality - Fiction Interaction.

 

[Pplherearemad]

I know that in reality he is fictional but he still still is on the same layer as author avatars and such.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Author avatars have incredibly varying levels of power, though. Ranging anywhere from tier 10 to tier 0.

 

[Pplherearemad]

I mean those kind of avatars who view verse as fiction not the cameos as the normal humans.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Those avatars are also of varying levels depending on the structure of the verse.