Persona 5 Royal questions (spoilers)

[Potemkat]

I don't understand some things on the Persona 5 pages:

1-Why are the Palace rulers Low 2-C/scaling to their Palaces? A Palace is created when someone has distorted desires, and the Metaverse isolates them with a world linked to their cognitive vision. It isn't an AP feat.
We see that the Palace rulers are also weaker than things present in their own Palaces (Kamoshida getting locked in jail; Kaneshiro and his bodyguards, Okumura needing an entire plan to leave where he was etc.).
It doesn't seem right for them to scale; like how it would be weird to have Nanako from Persona 4 Low 2-C because of the Heaven dungeon.

2-Where was Azathoth (Maruki's first Persona) said to be the master of Nyarlathotep? It isn't mentioned in the game, and the only thing I found in Persona 5's guide is that Maruki has Azatoth and Chtulhu-based monsters in his palace because they are artificial creatures created by Lovecraft.

3-Shouldn't the phantom thieves have a key for their "normal" self, without Persona (or at least for Joker)? There's lots of abilities Joker have which are available even in the real world.

4-Why is Maruki and Yaldabaoth's defeats considered to be because of fate? I understand the reasons for Yaldabaoth, but I don't think fate was mentioned; he just manipulated the masses' thinking. Maruki didn't mention fate either and I don't think he even knows about the whole Trickster thing.

5-Is the "High-Godly if killed or erased" really true? The game is kinda vague about it, but I don't think it's supposed to be a form of regeneration or resurrection. Yaldabaoth said that they were disappearing because Mementos and Reality became one, so they had nowhere to exist.
But the Velvet Room is a place "between mind and matter, dream and reality"; so it would be the only place where they can exist. Then, they regain their will of Rebellion (which allows to resist cognitive effects) and can walk without being erased.
Something which, I think, also shows that they don't regenerate/resurrect is that there's a new game over screen for when you lose after coming back from the Velvet Room acknowledging the events. It implies that the Phantom Thieves couldn't come back the way after death.

6-Kamoshida has two keys but nothing says what the second one is meant to be. Why?
.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I don't understand some things on the Persona 5 pages:

1-Why are the Palace rulers Low 2-C/scaling to their Palaces? A Palace is created when someone has distorted desires, and the Metaverse isolates them with a world linked to their cognitive vision. It isn't an AP feat.
We see that the Palace rulers are also weaker than things present in their own Palaces (Kamoshida getting locked in jail; Kaneshiro and his bodyguards, Okumura needing an entire plan to leave where he was etc.).
It doesn't seem right for them to scale; like how it would be weird to have Nanako from Persona 4 Low 2-C because of the Heaven dungeon.


3-Shouldn't the phantom thieves have a key for their "normal" self, without Persona (or at least for Joker)? There's lots of abilities Joker have which are available even in the real world.

6-Kamoshida has two keys but nothing says what the second one is meant to be. Why?
.

Its accepted here that palace rulers don't scale to low 2-C until they are in their demonic forms like Asmodeus or Azazel, but the Kamoshida page is outdated. Their base shadow forms are sometimes not that powerful but apparently their demonic forms are the embodiments of the distorted desires which I can't find a scan of

Joker, Makoto and Ryuji are the only ones with feats a regular human can't do without their persona, I think only they should get new keys

The Kamoshida page is outdated, it needs to be unlocked for this CRT, I think Elizhaa forgot about the revision to AP

 

[Potemkat]

Its accepted here that palace rulers don't scale to low 2-C until they are in their demonic forms like Asmodeus or Azazel, but the Kamoshida page is outdated. Their base shadow forms are sometimes not that powerful but apparently their demonic forms are the embodiments of the distorted desires which I can't find a scan of

Joker, Makoto and Ryuji are the only ones with feats a regular human can't do without their persona, I think only they should get new keys

The Kamoshida page is outdated, it needs to be unlocked for this CRT, I think Elizhaa forgot about the revision to AP

I always thought their demonic form was more them fully giving in to their desires, like what happens in Persona 4 with Shadows or what happens with the Mementos quest individuals (they don't scale to Mementos but they take another form corresponding their desires).

Kaneshiro and Okumura are weaker than their bodyguards (their boss fight is about how to get past their bodyguards) and very weak in general so it doesn't seem right to say they became as strong as the Palace; since it would mean that things inside their Palaces>>>themselves = the Palace.

Also, destroying the Palace was something the main antagonist tried to do to kill the Phantom Thieves. If they already beat a version of him = to the Palace, I don't understand why it would work.
I think it's a bit weird and doesn't seem logic with the story.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I always thought their demonic form was more them fully giving in to their desires, like what happens in Persona 4 with Shadows or what happens with the Mementos quest individuals (they don't scale to Mementos but they take another form corresponding their desires).

Kaneshiro and Okumura are weaker than their bodyguards (their boss fight is about how to get past their bodyguards) and very weak in general so it doesn't seem right to say they became as strong as the Palace; since it would mean that things inside their Palaces>>>themselves = the Palace.

Also, destroying the Palace was something the main antagonist tried to do to kill the Phantom Thieves. If they already beat a version of him = to the Palace, I don't understand why it would work.
I think it's a bit weird and doesn't seem logic with the story.

You should make a CRT

 

[Potemkat]

CRT?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

CRT?

content revision thread

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

I don't understand some things on the Persona 5 pages:

1-Why are the Palace rulers Low 2-C/scaling to their Palaces? A Palace is created when someone has distorted desires, and the Metaverse isolates them with a world linked to their cognitive vision. It isn't an AP feat.
We see that the Palace rulers are also weaker than things present in their own Palaces (Kamoshida getting locked in jail; Kaneshiro and his bodyguards, Okumura needing an entire plan to leave where he was etc.).
It doesn't seem right for them to scale; like how it would be weird to have Nanako from Persona 4 Low 2-C because of the Heaven dungeon.

2-Where was Azathoth (Maruki's first Persona) said to be the master of Nyarlathotep? It isn't mentioned in the game, and the only thing I found in Persona 5's guide is that Maruki has Azatoth and Chtulhu-based monsters in his palace because they are artificial creatures created by Lovecraft.

3-Shouldn't the phantom thieves have a key for their "normal" self, without Persona (or at least for Joker)? There's lots of abilities Joker have which are available even in the real world.

4-Why is Maruki and Yaldabaoth's defeats considered to be because of fate? I understand the reasons for Yaldabaoth, but I don't think fate was mentioned; he just manipulated the masses' thinking. Maruki didn't mention fate either and I don't think he even knows about the whole Trickster thing.

5-Is the "High-Godly if killed or erased" really true? The game is kinda vague about it, but I don't think it's supposed to be a form of regeneration or resurrection. Yaldabaoth said that they were disappearing because Mementos and Reality became one, so they had nowhere to exist.
But the Velvet Room is a place "between mind and matter, dream and reality"; so it would be the only place where they can exist. Then, they regain their will of Rebellion (which allows to resist cognitive effects) and can walk without being erased.
Something which, I think, also shows that they don't regenerate/resurrect is that there's a new game over screen for when you lose after coming back from the Velvet Room acknowledging the events. It implies that the Phantom Thieves couldn't come back the way after death.

6-Kamoshida has two keys but nothing says what the second one is meant to be. Why?
.

I'm pretty sure it's somewhat of a hax thing to some degree, but the Palace Rulers are stated to have Near-Complete control of everything in their palace, as well as what king said about the Desire's and what not.

I'll admit, I unno bout this one.

This has been attempted before, and I recall it being shut down mainly because people would try to use it to make Joker seem weaker than he really was, or like, smth like that. In any case, in the P5 cast, the only real notable things would be like... Joker's everything, Ryuji and Sumire being Athletic, Akechi having superb Aim and a Gun, and like, Makoto knowing some Martial Arts. Seems a tad wasteful to me personally, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if they were made.

It's because it's stated a zillion times that Ren is passively altering fate and what not. I don't personally have the scans, but it's widely accepted that he's altering fate in his favor to face Yaldabaoth. In addition, some believe it to be implied that when Maruki say's he think he'd lose if he tried to redo the fight that Maruki's basically saying that he realizes that Ren's changing fate.

I don't see any reason to assume that the Velvet Room itself can save people from being erased or anything of that nature. Even if we assume The Velvet Room was a place where those who do not exist could be, they were still erased, and then came back able to resist being erased. We see them literally fading away in a erasure esque manner when Mementos fused. It's likely they only ended up at the Velvet Room because of Joker's innate connection to it. Besides, if it only applies to the erasure, then that means that if they are explicitly just Killed in their endeavors, then there isn't much of anything to be done. It adds up to me at least.

Uh... I unno bout this either lol

 

[Lukewoesal007]

1-Why are the Palace rulers Low 2-C/scaling to their Palaces? A Palace is created when someone has distorted desires, and the Metaverse isolates them with a world linked to their cognitive vision. It isn't an AP feat.

Palaces are a reflection of the ruler's perception of reality itself - in other words, a mirror of the universe from the perspective of a given individual. As such, the palaces themselves are considered to be 4D space-time continuums. A character's AP can scale to the size of their creation under certain circumstances, which the palace rulers easily fall under. Palaces are created and sustained by their rulers - and when a ruler is defeated, the palace begins to deteriorate and is deleted from the Metaverse Navigator.

We see that the Palace rulers are also weaker than things present in their own Palaces (Kamoshida getting locked in jail; Kaneshiro and his bodyguards, Okumura needing an entire plan to leave where he was etc.).

As per this CRT, we don't scale Shadow Kadoshida's humanoid form to Low 2-C. Kamoshida's profile is severely outdated.

It doesn't seem right for them to scale; like how it would be weird to have Nanako from Persona 4 Low 2-C because of the Heaven dungeon.

This is admittedly nit-picky on my part, but this isn't really an apt comparison. None of the palaces in Persona 4 collapse, even after the defeat of their shadow ruler.

Where was Azathoth (Maruki's first Persona) said to be the master of Nyarlathotep?

It was stated in the Devil Survivor 2 compendium:

"A god of the Cthulhu mythos. He came to Earth in ancient times from outer space and is known as the Crawling Chaos. He acts as a proxy to his masters such as Azathoth, who have no intelligence to make their desires manifest in our world. Because he can assume various forms, he is known as a faceless god. He is particularly known as the Haunter of the Dark, and he seems to have other guises on Earth as well."

3-Shouldn't the phantom thieves have a key for their "normal" self, without Persona (or at least for Joker)? There's lots of abilities Joker have which are available even in the real world.

Sure. I believe a few of the MegaTen supporters are working on their "real world/normal" keys, but they obviously haven't been added yet.

5-Is the "High-Godly if killed or erased" really true? The game is kinda vague about it, but I don't think it's supposed to be a form of regeneration or resurrection. Yaldabaoth said that they were disappearing because Mementos and Reality became one, so they had nowhere to exist.

They didn't have anywhere to exist because Mementos and reality where merged, and Yaldabaoth had manipulated the Cognition of the masses to make them believe the Phantom Thieves didn't exist.

But the Velvet Room is a place "between mind and matter, dream and reality"; so it would be the only place where they can exist. Then, they regain their will of Rebellion (which allows to resist cognitive effects) and can walk without being erased.

How do you think they able to remanifest, then? If you're trying to assert that Yaldabaoth simply removed them from the Qlithoth World and they found their way to the Velvet Room, that contradicts how Cognition works entirely.

6-Kamoshida has two keys but nothing says what the second one is meant to be. Why?

Kamoshida's page is outdated, though I believe the first key was supposed to be his humanoid shadow form, while the latter was supposed to be his Asmodeus form.

I always thought their demonic form was more them fully giving in to their desires

The "demonic" forms of the palace rulers are the embodiments of the emotions that caused their palace to form initially.

Kaneshiro and Okumura are weaker than their bodyguards (their boss fight is about how to get past their bodyguards)

The PTs fight Kaneshiro directly, even though he summons bodyguards during his fight. Okumura is never fought in his demonic form.

it doesn't seem right to say they became as strong as the Palace; since it would mean that things inside their Palaces>>>themselves = the Palace.

I believe all palaces are only universal in size, later palace rulers just warrant a higher ranking because they have control over Low 1-C and above Shadows, which are ultimately still aspects of themselves.

Also, destroying the Palace was something the main antagonist tried to do to kill the Phantom Thieves. If they already beat a version of him = to the Palace, I don't understand why it would work.

That's simply a result of the writers not considering powerscaling implications. Plot-induced stupidity is common in almost any kind of media.

 

[Potemkat]

content revision thread

Thank you! Is there a page where I can see other abreviations used here?

Palaces are a reflection of the ruler's perception of reality itself - in other words, a mirror of the universe from the perspective of a given individual. As such, the palaces themselves are considered to be 4D space-time continuums. A character's AP can scale to the size of their creation under certain circumstances, which the palace rulers easily fall under. Palaces are created and sustained by their rulers - and when a ruler is defeated, the palace begins to deteriorate and is deleted from the Metaverse Navigator.

This is admittedly nit-picky on my part, but this isn't really an apt comparison. None of the palaces in Persona 4 collapse, even after the defeat of their shadow ruler.

But that's because they stop having their desire distorted, the palaces are made to isolate them from the prisons.

It would be like everyone in Mementos being as strong as Mementos because it is "the public's Palace", no?

It's not their power that create the Palace, it's Mementos. And some palace rulers aren't very strong.

They didn't have anywhere to exist because Mementos and reality where merged, and Yaldabaoth had manipulated the Cognition of the masses to make them believe the Phantom Thieves didn't exist.

How do you think they able to remanifest, then? If you're trying to assert that Yaldabaoth simply removed them from the Qlithoth World and they found their way to the Velvet Room, that contradicts how Cognition works entirely.

Velvet Room is neither reality nor Mementos (between dreams and reality, mind and matter) so they would end up there by default, since they can't exist in the two others.

Then, they regain the will of Rebellion and can resist the erasure (I think the wiki says they're protected from cognition powers if they have a strong will).

If they can come back to life, the new game over screen would be weird to add.

 

[Potemkat]

The "demonic" forms of the palace rulers are the embodiments of the emotions that caused their palace to form initially.


The PTs fight Kaneshiro directly, even though he summons bodyguards during his fight. Okumura is never fought in his demonic form.

But shouldn't Kaneshiro stronger than his bodyguards + the piggy? He's supposed to be stronger than everything in his Palace, but isn't.

Okumura demonic form is when he has blue skin. You fight him after beating the robots (i hate this fight).

That's simply a result of the writers not considering powerscaling implications. Plot-induced stupidity is common in almost any kind of media.

Is it really ?

 

[Potemkat]

This has been attempted before, and I recall it being shut down mainly because people would try to use it to make Joker seem weaker than he really was, or like, smth like that. In any case, in the P5 cast, the only real notable things would be like... Joker's everything, Ryuji and Sumire being Athletic, Akechi having superb Aim and a Gun, and like, Makoto knowing some Martial Arts. Seems a tad wasteful to me personally, but it wouldn't be the end of the world if they were made.

Oh, I see.

It's because it's stated a zillion times that Ren is passively altering fate and what not. I don't personally have the scans, but it's widely accepted that he's altering fate in his favor to face Yaldabaoth. In addition, some believe it to be implied that when Maruki say's he think he'd lose if he tried to redo the fight that Maruki's basically saying that he realizes that Ren's changing fate.

Yes, I know he change fate and tarot cards. But isn't the Yaldabaoth and Maruki part fan theory? Maruki line sounded like a pretty generic villain one.

I don't see any reason to assume that the Velvet Room itself can save people from being erased or anything of that nature. Even if we assume The Velvet Room was a place where those who do not exist could be, they were still erased, and then came back able to resist being erased. We see them literally fading away in a erasure esque manner when Mementos fused. It's likely they only ended up at the Velvet Room because of Joker's innate connection to it. Besides, if it only applies to the erasure, then that means that if they are explicitly just Killed in their endeavors, then there isn't much of anything to be done. It adds up to me at least.

They only do not exist in reality and Mementos. If there's a place that is neither, why would they not be there ?

The profiles also say it works if you just kill them

sorry for making lots of messages to answer, I'm still trying to understand how forum works

 

[Lukewoesal007]

4-Why is Maruki and Yaldabaoth's defeats considered to be because of fate?

I forgot to answer this, but Maruki states that, even if he was able to retry his battle against the Phantom Thieves, there would be no conceivable way for him to win against them. We know this isn't simply a comment on their strength or fighting prowess, since he was able to evenly content and even overpower them for the majority of the fight.

It would be like everyone in Mementos being as strong as Mementos because it is "the public's Palace", no?

It's not their power that create the Palace, it's Mementos. And some palace rulers aren't very strong.

The Mementos Depths and individual palaces aren't comparable. The former is the collective palace of humanity, and the sole thing sustaining it is Yaldabaoth. The latter is formed, controlled, and sustained solely by one individual. Mementos being the fulcrum which actualizes their distorted desires doesn't mean the rulers wouldn't scale. Refer to my initial message for information regarding creation/sustaining feats.

Velvet Room is neither reality nor Mementos (between dreams and reality, mind and matter) so they would end up there by default, since they can't exist in the two others.

Mementos and reality were fused into the singular Qlithoth World, and they're explicitly erased from reality. Yes, they remanifested in the Velvet Room, but them reclaiming their existence warrants High-Godly regeneration.

But shouldn't Kaneshiro stronger than his bodyguards + the piggy? He's supposed to be stronger than everything in his Palace, but isn't.

Okumura demonic form is when he has blue skin. You fight him after beating the robots (i hate this fight).

Kaneshiro's a unique instance, because of his cowardly disposition that he covers up with hired help and money. He should still hypothetically scale above everything in his palace though.

That's Okumura's normal palace ruler form. We never see him into turn into a demonic form, unlike the vast majority of other palace rulers.

 

[Potemkat]

I forgot to answer this, but Maruki states that, even if he was able to retry his battle against the Phantom Thieves, there would be no conceivable way for him to win against them. We know this isn't simply a comment on their strength or fighting prowess, since he was able to evenly content and even overpower them for the majority of the fight.

He lost to their determination and teamwork, I think it's common for JRPGs.

Also he didn't have any way to know about Joker being the Trickster. It's weird to say he knew (otherwise he wouldn't have tried).

The Mementos Depths and individual palaces aren't comparable. The former is the collective palace of humanity, and the sole thing sustaining it is Yaldabaoth. The latter is formed, controlled, and sustained solely by one individual. Mementos being the fulcrum which actualizes their distorted desires doesn't mean the rulers wouldn't scale. Refer to my initial message for information regarding creation/sustaining feats.

The information says it has to come from their power though. Here it doesn't.

Mementos and reality were fused into the singular Qlithoth World, and they're explicitly erased from reality. Yes, they remanifested in the Velvet Room, but them reclaiming their existence warrants High-Godly regeneration.

But they never regenerated in the game...
They just walked and didn't get erased anymore, because of their will.

If it was regeneration, they should get re-erased the moment they step in Qlithoth; and there shouldn't be new game over screen (since profile says they regenerate when killed or erased).

Kaneshiro's a unique instance, because of his cowardly disposition that he covers up with hired help and money. He should still hypothetically scale above everything in his palace though.

That's Okumura's normal palace ruler form. We never see him into turn into a demonic form, unlike the vast majority of other palace rulers.

It seems contradictory with the game then. Isn't it weird to say the game didn't know that they should be stronger ?

Okumura normal form is him without blue skin. I think his blue skin form is considered to be like the others in Thieves Den.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

He lost to their determination and teamwork, I think it's common for JRPGs.

You're missing my point entirely. Yes, he ultimately lost because of the Phantom Thieves' coordination, but he states that, even if he were to retry the battle with the knowledge of their strategy, he would have no way of defeating them.

Also he didn't have any way to know about Joker being the Trickster. It's weird to say he knew (otherwise he wouldn't have tried).

I don't understand your argument. All he's saying is that he wouldn't have a chance of defeating the Phantom Thieves regardless of how many times he tried. Him not knowing about Trickster is entirely irrelevant.

The information says it has to come from their power though. Here it doesn't.

It does, actually. Palaces are sustained by their own rulers' Magnetite/Cognition, as they are ultimately born from those distorted desires and collapse upon the defeat of said desires.

But they never regenerated in the game...
They just walked and didn't get erased anymore, because of their will.

If it was regeneration, they should get re-erased the moment they step in Qlithoth

They did regenerate. They were erased from reality and later reclaim their existence in the Velvet Room. You act like them strengthening their Will of Rebellion is mutually exclusive to them regenerating from erasure, but both can simultaneously be correct. The evidence just suggests the Phantom Thieves (and comparable Persona users) can return from erasure through or from the Velvet Room. And considering the Phantom Thieves (in addition to the Persona 3 and 4 casts) were able to regenerate from Enlil erasing them, I don't why this wouldn't constitute as at least some form of regen.

and there shouldn't be new game over screen (since profile says they regenerate when killed or erased).

Game mechanics.

Okumura normal form is him without blue skin. I think his blue skin form is considered to be like the others in Thieves Den.

That's his form as a human in reality. Blue-skin Okumura is his palace ruler form.

 

[Potemkat]

You're missing my point entirely. Yes, he ultimately lost because of the Phantom Thieves' coordination, but he states that, even if he were to retry the battle with the knowledge of their strategy, he would have no way of defeating them.


I don't understand your argument. All he's saying is that he wouldn't have a chance of defeating the Phantom Thieves regardless of how many times he tried. Him not knowing about Trickster is entirely irrelevant.

Teamwork and determination isn't just strategy, that's a general thing.

Joker's fate manipulation is because he is the Trickster. Maruki has no reason to know Joker has this power and he isn't very knowledgeable regarding anything but his research. Why would he talk about something he never heard off rather than just concede the Phantom Thieves will always stand in his way?

It does, actually. Palaces are sustained by their own rulers' Magnetite/Cognition, as they are ultimately born from those distorted desires and collapse upon the defeat of said desires.

Because the Metaverse maintains it, not power. It's explained when you encounter the bosses in the prisons. It's a way to isolate them from the others.
If someone creates a world to lock me based on my desires, I don't think I should be stronger than the universe.

They did regenerate. They were erased from reality and later reclaim their existence in the Velvet Room. You act like them strengthening their Will of Rebellion is mutually exclusive to them regenerating from erasure, but both can simultaneously be correct. The evidence just suggests the Phantom Thieves (and comparable Persona users) can return from erasure through or from the Velvet Room. And considering the Phantom Thieves (in addition to the Persona 3 and 4 casts) were able to regenerate from Enlil erasing them, I don't why this wouldn't constitute as at least some form of regen.

Enlil isn't Yaldabaoth... They are different characters. I'm talking about Persona 5.

The video doesn't say that they reclaimed their existence in the Velvet Room. Lavenza says that they "must reclaim their existence", alongside "defeating the evil god". If they "must", then it didn't happen yet.
When they came back, Mona's light made people recognize them, so they wouldn't need regeneration to begin with.

The characters don't talk about regeneration or resurection. The Velvet Room is just where they end up by default, like being kicked from two servers (Real World and Metaverse) meaning you can only end in the last one (The Velvet Room).

Game mechanics.

It's acknowledged by the scenario, since it changed to reflect the current events. I don't think it can be dismissed as just game mechanic.

That's his form as a human in reality. Blue-skin Okumura is his palace ruler form.

The forms in Thieves Den are meant to be their ruler form. The Okumura one in it is his blue-skin.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

The forms in Thieves Den are meant to be their ruler form. The Okumura one in it is his blue-skin.

Yes, he is in his Ruler Form, or his shadow, but not his distorted desire form. Okumura maintains the same form through the palace without physically changing once, much like Futaba. We know Base Palace Rulers can have different skin than normal, as shown by Kaneshiro being all purple, and any other supposed oddity about his appearance is just a running theme with Palace Rulers all wearing particular outfits.

We see Futaba also only being in her standard form in the Theives Den, there is nothing to indicate she is in a Distorted Form, so there is precedence for this.

Even Shido, at most, just changed his outfit- He only get's the Strange Middle Name that usually signifies Distorted Forms in the Analysis after Bulking up, and we see his Lion Riding version in the Thieves Den, not his Bulked up form.

To summarize: There are Normal Palace Ruler Versions, which are the Normal Shadows. Then, there are Distorted Desire Versions, the Beefed up transformations. Assuming that any of them keep this form up 24/7 would be Conjecture and unlikely, so it should be presumed that if we don't see them under go it, then they haven't in the story for whatever reason.

This isn't even the first example of a Shadow not Transforming in Battle- Look at Adachi, or any of the Pre Neo Persona Game's Party Member's Shadow's.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Teamwork and determination isn't just strategy, that's a general thing.

Sure, though you cannot deny they had to employ strategy in order to defeat Adam Kadmon. The only reason they were able to win is because they learned of AK's weakpoint and exploited it.

Joker's fate manipulation is because he is the Trickster. Maruki has no reason to know Joker has this power and he isn't very knowledgeable regarding anything but his research. Why would he talk about something he never heard off rather than just concede the Phantom Thieves will always stand in his way?

Again, this is not my point at all. I never once asserted he was directly commenting on the Trickster ability itself or that he knew anything about it. My argument is that Maruki claims, even if he were to retry his against the Phantom Thieves with the knowledge they would eventually figure out his weakness and defeat him, and thus adjust his approach to prevent that from happening, he still wouldn't be able to prevail. Maruki can comment on his feelings of hopelessness (which can be explained as him being bound to Joker's fate manipulation) without knowing of Trickster at all.

Because the Metaverse maintains it, not power.

No. The palace rulers maintain their palaces, hence why every palace collapses upon the defeat of their respective ruler and dissipation of the desires that spawned the palace in the first place. The Metaverse is simply the system that allows them to exist in the first place, if it were truly the mechanism that were sustaining the palaces, the Phantom Thieves would have to destroy it entirely for any of the palaces to stop existing. The rest of your argument isn't mutually exclusive with my point and doesn't have any relevance.

Enlil isn't Yaldabaoth... They are different characters. I'm talking about Persona 5.

The Phantom Thieves were apart of the group that returned from erasure at the hands of Enlil. I brought it up because it serves as another example of them having some form of regeneration.

The video doesn't say that they reclaimed their existence in the Velvet Room. Lavenza says that they "must reclaim their existence", alongside "defeating the evil god". If they "must", then it didn't happen yet.

What's your point? She says they must reclaim their existence...and they do. Them exiting the Velvet Room and proceeding to challenge Yaldabaoth in Qliphoth World is literally them "reclaiming their existence" and "defeating the evil god".

When they came back, Mona's light made people recognize them, so they wouldn't need regeneration to begin with.

This doesn't even make any sense. Morgana was erased alongside the Phantom Thieves, and wasn't even able to "use his light" until he had recovered his memories by revisiting the Velvet Room. The assertion that Mona's light caused the public to recognize the Phantom Thieves is also incredibly dubious as well, and it's far more likely the masses started to remember the PTs because they were literally standing right in front of them in-costume.

The characters don't talk about regeneration or resurection. The Velvet Room is just where they end up by default, like being kicked from two servers (Real World and Metaverse) meaning you can only end in the last one (The Velvet Room).

Firstly, it would be one "server", since reality and Mementos were fused into the Qliphoth World. Secondly, your analogy isn't mutually exclusive to the Phantom Thieves having High-Godly regen. The Thieves were erased from reality (or "kicked from the server", if you will) and found themselves in the Velvet Room, a "server" that resides in nonexistence. Lavenza herself quite explicitly states that the Phantom Thieves don't exist.

It's acknowledged by the scenario, since it changed to reflect the current events. I don't think it can be dismissed as just game mechanic.

Even if you don't dismiss the game over screen as a game mechanic, it still wouldn't disprove High-Godly. Examine the dialogue from the game-over screen:

Thou hast fallen and lost thy noble life.

The hero hath crumbled over the weight of his own justice. His story of revolution reacheth not the ears of the people.

The torch of courage that hath begun to kindle hath now been extinguished by tainted winds.

The game clearly attributes the game over to be a result of Joker losing his will and strength to fight against Yaldabaoth. All it proves is that sufficient willpower is required for a Persona user to return from nonexistence, and since this isn't canon, there's no reason to assume Joker would lack that willpower. When the vast majority of abilities in Megami Tensei, especially Persona, are powered by mental fortitude and will, Joker failing against Yaldabaoth because he wasn't determined enough is entirely congruent with what's already been established and doesn't disprove anything.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Palaces are a reflection of the ruler's perception of reality itself - in other words, a mirror of the universe from the perspective of a given individual. As such, the palaces themselves are considered to be 4D space-time continuums. A character's AP can scale to the size of their creation under certain circumstances, which the palace rulers easily fall under. Palaces are created and sustained by their rulers - and when a ruler is defeated, the palace begins to deteriorate and is deleted from the Metaverse Navigator.



I believe all palaces are only universal in size, later palace rulers just warrant a higher ranking because they have control over Low 1-C and above Shadows, which are ultimately still aspects of themselves.

Sustaining the palace shouldn't translate to low 2-C durability and striking strength because Kamoshida's shadow does that. And that doesn't explain why there are things in the palace more durable or stronger than the palace ruler

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Sustaining the palace shouldn't translate to low 2-C durability and striking strength

We have a page for stabilization feats, which the palace rulers would qualify for.

And that doesn't explain why there are things in the palace more durable or stronger than the palace ruler

The demonic forms of each palace ruler are the sources of the palace and everything inside of them, so they should absolutely scale to any Shadows/enemies. There aren't any instances where the bestial palace rulers are portrayed as being weaker than other Shadows in their palace. Even Shadow Kaneshiro, who relied on his Piggytron and bodyguards due to his cowardly personality, still ultimately outlasts all of them and is capable of fighting the Phantom Thieves on his own.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

We have a page for stabilization feats, which the palace rulers would qualify for.


The demonic forms of each palace ruler are the sources of the palace and everything inside of them, so they should absolutely scale to any Shadows/enemies. There aren't any instances where the bestial palace rulers are portrayed as being weaker than other Shadows in their palace. Even Shadow Kaneshiro, who relied on his Piggytron and bodyguards due to his cowardly personality, still ultimately outlasts all of them and is capable of fighting the Phantom Thieves on his own.

Yes, and Kamoshida who sustains the palace isn't that much stronger than a regular human, something already accepted here

That Kaneshiro example is terrible, Kaneshiro required one of his guards to block attacks from the phantom thieves, and that guard was invincible in comparison to Kaneshiro and attacks that would have harmed him, proving his palace has objects stronger than him

 

[Potemkat]

Sure, though you cannot deny they had to employ strategy in order to defeat Adam Kadmon. The only reason they were able to win is because they learned of AK's weakpoint and exploited it.

Yes

Again, this is not my point at all. I never once asserted he was directly commenting on the Trickster ability itself or that he knew anything about it. My argument is that Maruki claims, even if he were to retry his against the Phantom Thieves with the knowledge they would eventually figure out his weakness and defeat him, and thus adjust his approach to prevent that from happening, he still wouldn't be able to prevail. Maruki can comment on his feelings of hopelessness (which can be explained as him being bound to Joker's fate manipulation) without knowing of Trickster at all.

What could he really adjust? Adam Kadmon punch is what was dangerous in the fight.

Saying Maruki feeling hopeless is because of fate seems like a theory..

No. The palace rulers maintain their palaces, hence why every palace collapses upon the defeat of their respective ruler and dissipation of the desires that spawned the palace in the first place. The Metaverse is simply the system that allows them to exist in the first place, if it were truly the mechanism that were sustaining the palaces, the Phantom Thieves would have to destroy it entirely for any of the palaces to stop existing. The rest of your argument isn't mutually exclusive with my point and doesn't have any relevance.

That's not true. The Metaverse uses them to lock up those with distorted desires.
The Palace doesn't disappear if they are beaten, only if they lose their desires.

If they lose the desires, why would they need to still be isolated?

The Phantom Thieves were apart of the group that returned from erasure at the hands of Enlil. I brought it up because it serves as another example of them having some form of regeneration.

But that's not what I'm talking about..

What's your point? She says they must reclaim their existence...and they do. Them exiting the Velvet Room and proceeding to challenge Yaldabaoth in Qliphoth World is literally them "reclaiming their existence" and "defeating the evil god".

Walking through the Velvet Room door isn't regeneration tho. If it was, Joker should have it since Kamoshida palace.

This doesn't even make any sense. Morgana was erased alongside the Phantom Thieves, and wasn't even able to "use his light" until he had recovered his memories by revisiting the Velvet Room. The assertion that Mona's light caused the public to recognize the Phantom Thieves is also incredibly dubious as well, and it's far more likely the masses started to remember the PTs because they were literally standing right in front of them in-costume.

They denied the phantom thieves despite saying the result of their actions and their huge video. Why would just seeing them in costume work?
I don't see why developers would mention the light for nothing..

Firstly, it would be one "server", since reality and Mementos were fused into the Qliphoth World. Secondly, your analogy isn't mutually exclusive to the Phantom Thieves having High-Godly regen. The Thieves were erased from reality (or "kicked from the server", if you will) and found themselves in the Velvet Room, a "server" that resides in nonexistence. Lavenza herself quite explicitly states that the Phantom Thieves don't exist.

So everyone that goes in Velvet Room doesn't exist?

Even if you don't dismiss the game over screen as a game mechanic, it still wouldn't disprove High-Godly. Examine the dialogue from the game-over screen:

The game clearly attributes the game over to be a result of Joker losing his will and strength to fight against Yaldabaoth. All it proves is that sufficient willpower is required for a Persona user to return from nonexistence, and since this isn't canon, there's no reason to assume Joker would lack that willpower. When the vast majority of abilities in Megami Tensei, especially Persona, are powered by mental fortitude and will, Joker failing against Yaldabaoth because he wasn't determined enough is entirely congruent with what's already been established and doesn't disprove anything.

They said he lost his life tho.

They didn't have willpower when they got erased, so why would it work here and not after?

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Yes, and Kamoshida who sustains the palace isn't that much stronger than a regular human, something already accepted here

I never asserted the humanoid palace rulers should scale to their palaces, only their demonic form. You're countering an argument I'm not making.

That Kaneshiro example is terrible, Kaneshiro required one of his guards to block attacks from the phantom thieves, and that guard was invincible in comparison to Kaneshiro and attacks that would have harmed him, proving his palace has objects stronger than him

I don't think a gimmick from a boss fight is any solid proof at all, especially when Shadows are ultimately just manifestations of the rulers psyche and are entirely subservient to them.

What could he really adjust? Adam Kadmon punch is what was dangerous in the fight.

He could start with Adam Kadmon and position himself in such a way that mitigates his weakness. He was fighting evenly with the PTs with Azathoth and grossly overpowering them with AK anyways.

That's not true. The Metaverse uses them to lock up those with distorted desires.
The Palace doesn't disappear if they are beaten, only if they lose their desires.

So...how do you think they lose those desires to begin with? Their desires manifest as their demonic forms, which the Phantom Thieves defeat.

If they lose the desires, why would they need to still be isolated?

They evidently do lose their desires, given how every palace ruler immediately quits their usual behavior and feels remorseful for their actions after their palace collapses.

Walking through the Velvet Room door isn't regeneration tho. If it was, Joker should have it since Kamoshida palace.

I never claimed as such. Them returning from conceptual non-existence through the Velvet Room is regeneration. Your argument doesn't work because Joker is obviously still alive and existent until that moment.

They denied the phantom thieves despite saying the result of their actions and their huge video. Why would just seeing them in costume work?

Because Yaldabaoth erased the memory of the Phantom Thieves from the collective consciousness of the masses, and since Mementos and reality were merged, that meant they were almost immediately erased from existence. Once their resolve is strengthened, they're able to resist the effects of Cognition to an even greater extent, and the site of them in-costume triggers the memory of the Phantom Thieves in the public.

I don't see why developers would mention the light for nothing..

They didn't. It's to signify Morgana has found his original purpose and his old memories again.

So everyone that goes in Velvet Room doesn't exist?

The Velvet Room and its natural inhabitants are nonexistent. Certain visitors (namely the Wild Cards) are able to interact with it despite not being nonexistent themselves.

They said he lost his life tho.

Because he lost his willpower.

They didn't have willpower when they got erased, so why would it work here and not after?

They had suffered a defeat at the hands of the Holy Grail, were left without their Personas or costumes, and had begun to realize Mementos had fused with reality. It was a hopeless situation for them, so they're obviously not going to have the willpower to regenerate on their own. It was only when Igor and Lavenza explained the situation and encouraged them that they were able to come back. Joker suddenly losing his will doesn't make sense, but that doesn't matter because that ending isn't canonical.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I never asserted the humanoid palace rulers should scale to their palaces, only their demonic form. You're countering an argument I'm not making.


I don't think a gimmick from a boss fight is any solid proof at all, especially when Shadows are ultimately just manifestations of the rulers psyche and are entirely subservient to them.

I know, I'm using that to say that sustaining your palace doesn't grant you low 2-C ap and durability

Why is a gimmick from a boss fight that is canon not solid proof? That sounds like denial to me. Being subservient to someone says nothing about your stats

 

[Lukewoesal007]

I know, I'm using that to say that sustaining your palace doesn't grant you low 2-C ap and durability

The humanoid palace rulers not scaling to their creation is fine, since there are quite a few anti-feats for them. Their demonic forms should absolutely scale however, given how they're the personification and embodiment of the very desires that spawned their palace.

Why is a gimmick from a boss fight that is canon not solid proof?

Gameplay doesn't accurately reflect canonical power. And, again, the developers aren't going to design the game in such a way that is always accurate to lore.

Being subservient to someone says nothing about your stats

It's not just that Shadows serve their ruler. The Shadows in a palace are manifestations of the ruler's psyche, just like the palace itself and everything else inside it.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

The humanoid palace rulers not scaling to their creation is fine, since there are quite a few anti-feats for them. Their demonic forms should absolutely scale however, given how they're the personification and embodiment of the very desires that spawned their palace.


Gameplay doesn't accurately reflect canonical power. And, again, the developers aren't going to design the game in such a way that is always accurate to lore.


It's not just that Shadows serve their ruler. The Shadows in a palace are manifestations of the ruler's psyche, just like the palace itself and everything else inside it.

Scan of them being the personification of the desires? Are you talking about their descriptions in the Thieves' Den?

This is not just gameplay, this is Morgana and Kaneshiro's dialogue, so it is lore

No, those shadows come from the collective unconscious and are drawn in by the distortions, then the ruler's cognition places control over them that is broken when Joker removes their mask to reveal their true form (which is also stated in Kamoshida's palace). Besides, if they created them, that's just evidence their psyches can form shadows stronger than themselves

 

[Potemkat]

He could start with Adam Kadmon and position himself in such a way that mitigates his weakness. He was fighting evenly with the PTs with Azathoth and grossly overpowering them with AK anyways.

It doesn't sound realistic.

So...how do you think they lose those desires to begin with? Their desires manifest as their demonic forms, which the Phantom Thieves defeat.

By stealing their Treasure.
That's why they are the Phantom Thieves.

They evidently do lose their desires, given how every palace ruler immediately quits their usual behavior and feels remorseful for their actions after their palace collapses.

I didn't say they didn't..

I never claimed as such. Them returning from conceptual non-existence through the Velvet Room is regeneration. Your argument doesn't work because Joker is obviously still alive and existent until that moment.

Because Yaldabaoth erased the memory of the Phantom Thieves from the collective consciousness of the masses, and since Mementos and reality were merged, that meant they were almost immediately erased from existence. Once their resolve is strengthened, they're able to resist the effects of Cognition to an even greater extent, and the site of them in-costume triggers the memory of the Phantom Thieves in the public.

So being non-existent is being the same as before, but in Velvet Room?
It doesn't sound right.. They would not be existent if they were in reality after being erased from it

They didn't. It's to signify Morgana has found his original purpose and his old memories again.

We already know that. So it wouldn't make sense to resay it for nothing..

The Velvet Room and its natural inhabitants are nonexistent. Certain visitors (namely the Wild Cards) are able to interact with it despite not being nonexistent themselves.

But normal humans can interact with the twins and attendants..

Because he lost his willpower.

Why would he lose willpower if he doesn't die?
It's a theory

They had suffered a defeat at the hands of the Holy Grail, were left without their Personas or costumes, and had begun to realize Mementos had fused with reality. It was a hopeless situation for them, so they're obviously not going to have the willpower to regenerate on their own. It was only when Igor and Lavenza explained the situation and encouraged them that they were able to come back. Joker suddenly losing his will doesn't make sense, but that doesn't matter because that ending isn't canonical.

They didn't talked about not being able to come back... That's a theory too..
They just didn't want to go

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

It doesn't sound realistic.

Elaborate. Maruki explicitly say's, and I quote, "Even if I were to try that fight over, I'm sure I would lose again.". This implies that this current Maruki saying this, who would have Adam Kadmon within his Cognition rather than Azathoth, does not believe that he could feasibly defeat the Phantom Thieves if he attempted that battle once more.

By stealing their Treasure.
That's why they are the Phantom Thieves.

Yes, their Treasure Represents their desires, but so too does their Distorted Forms. For a number of them, they end up using their Treasure in their Distorted Form (Kamoshida being prime Example). If their Distorted Form and Their Treasure are both their same Distorted Desires, it stands to reason that they should be relative, and since the Treasure is literally holding up the palace together (Metaverse only serves as the Means through which a Palace can exist: There is no proof that I am aware of that it is solely responsible for holding up said Palaces.), that would mean that The Distorted Form would likewise have the capacity to hold up the Palace... Which makes especially more sense given how some of them are using their treasure in certain cases.

So being non-existent is being the same as before, but in Velvet Room?
It doesn't sound right.. They would not be existent if they were in reality after being erased from it

They aren't existent, but they can "Be" in the Velvet Room. The concept of Non-Existent Beings Persisting isn't exclusive to this series, though this series does have a particular way of handling it. Since they don't Exist, they can't be within the Qliphoth. The Velvet Room, being a space beyond that and many other conventional Concepts, can house them for a time, until they reclaim their existence so that they can appear once more in the Qliphoth. That is to say, after being erased, they were sent to the Velvet Room, outside Conventional Reality, and had to reclaim their Right's to Exist alongside their Willpower if they wanted to so much as step foot into the Qliphoth. They could not appear there if they did not exist following this series logic on it, so they had to exist once more.

We already know that. So it wouldn't make sense to resay it for nothing..

Writers repeat themselves all the time. It's not new.

But normal humans can interact with the twins and attendants..

Scans, if I may ask?
To my Knowledge, only Persona User's ever visit the Velvet Room. On the Rare occasion Velvet Attendants appear outside the VR, nearly no one bats a eye to their presence. I recall there being some strange thing involving Liz's Reflection or Shadow in the Movie that further implicates a lack of their presence to a natural viewer, though I do not have that scene to pull up. I cannot recall a single time where the Twins or any other Velvet Attendant is interacted with by a Normal Person.

Why would he lose willpower if he doesn't die?
It's a theory

No, it's a well informed inference. Luke clearly specifies what parts of the Death Quote are indicative of what he's conveying, of how it very likely seems to imply that Joker lost his willpower, and that's why he cannot continue. He explained how this fits with Megami Tensei's usual status quo as a whole, too.

They didn't talked about not being able to come back... That's a theory too..
They just didn't want to go

Respectfully, calling things Theories won't really get you anywhere.
Even putting aside the fact that at the moment, they lacked a existence and thus could not step into Qliphoth, the fact that they lacked their Persona's or any will of their own to continue was why they could not go back- They were all caged up waiting to slowly sink away into nothing, of course, until Joker appeared and reignited their Will's of Rebellion, at which point their prisons were broken free of.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Scan of them being the personification of the desires? Are you talking about their descriptions in the Thieves' Den?

Yes, all of the palace rulers' demonic forms are stated to be the forms of twisted desires.

No, those shadows come from the collective unconscious and are drawn in by the distortions, then the ruler's cognition places control over them that is broken when Joker removes their mask to reveal their true form (which is also stated in Kamoshida's palace). Besides, if they created them, that's just evidence their psyches can form shadows stronger than themselves

I was wrong in that regard, but your point doesn't disprove my argument. A person cannot contain a Shadow or Persona that is stronger than themselves without being taken over, hence why Joker cannot adopt the same Shadows the rulers control as Personas unless his level is equal to or greater than the Shadow in question. Shadows been held under the influence of a ruler who is weaker than themselves doesn't make sense.

I should also note that palace rulers scaling at least to the stabilization of their own palaces is completely reasonable, as said palaces are explicitly stated to be the size of universes. Even if there were Shadows in the palace that scale above their rulers, which shouldn't be the case, Low 2-C is a solid baseline due to how the palaces collapse after the removal of their treasure and the defeat of the demonic ruler (who are manifestations of the exact same desires the treasures symbolically represent).

KingStrategist already responded to the rest of the "arguments" perfectly, so I'll be taking my leave from the thread now.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Yes, all of the palace rulers' demonic forms are stated to be the forms of twisted desires.


I was wrong in that regard, but your point doesn't disprove my argument. A person cannot contain a Shadow or Persona that is stronger than themselves without being taken over, hence why Joker cannot adopt the same Shadows the rulers control as Personas unless his level is equal to or greater than the Shadow in question. Shadows been held under the influence of a ruler who is weaker than themselves doesn't make sense.

Yeah but Kaneshiro is also the form of his twisted desire but is less durable than certain things in his palace, so they shouldn't scale

That doesn't say you will get taken over if your shadow or persona is stronger than you. Its just Zeus possessing Elizabeth, doesn't say that its because she needs to be equal in strength. Elizabeth's strongest attacks are from her personas who are stronger than her physicals

I should also note that palace rulers scaling at least to the stabilization of their own palaces is completely reasonable, as said palaces are explicitly stated to be the size of universes. Even if there were Shadows in the palace that scale above their rulers, which shouldn't be the case, Low 2-C is a solid baseline due to how the palaces collapse after the removal of their treasure and the defeat of the demonic ruler (who are manifestations of the exact same desires the treasures symbolically represent).

I already responded to that, this does not scale to physicals because shadow kamoshida who isn't much stronger than a human can sustain his palace

 

[Potemkat]

Elaborate. Maruki explicitly say's, and I quote, "Even if I were to try that fight over, I'm sure I would lose again.". This implies that this current Maruki saying this, who would have Adam Kadmon within his Cognition rather than Azathoth, does not believe that he could feasibly defeat the Phantom Thieves if he attempted that battle once more.

Maruki is an extreme idealist who saw himself be defeated by the Phantom Thieves. He never once heard about fate or had anything to do with it.

Adam Kadmon realistically protecting his weakpoint while fighting the thieves is very unlikely.

Yes, their Treasure Represents their desires, but so too does their Distorted Forms. For a number of them, they end up using their Treasure in their Distorted Form (Kamoshida being prime Example). If their Distorted Form and Their Treasure are both their same Distorted Desires, it stands to reason that they should be relative, and since the Treasure is literally holding up the palace together (Metaverse only serves as the Means through which a Palace can exist: There is no proof that I am aware of that it is solely responsible for holding up said Palaces.), that would mean that The Distorted Form would likewise have the capacity to hold up the Palace... Which makes especially more sense given how some of them are using their treasure in certain cases.

Kamoshida drink from the treasure to heal (or more what's in it). It's not used for attacking.

We already know the Metaverse is responsible since it's a mean to lock them away.
Meanwhile, it brings several inconsistency to say that Bodyguards>>>Kaneshiro>>>his entire palace or that everyone in Okumura's Palace>>> Okumura>>>Okumura's palace

They aren't existent, but they can "Be" in the Velvet Room. The concept of Non-Existent Beings Persisting isn't exclusive to this series, though this series does have a particular way of handling it. Since they don't Exist, they can't be within the Qliphoth. The Velvet Room, being a space beyond that and many other conventional Concepts, can house them for a time, until they reclaim their existence so that they can appear once more in the Qliphoth. That is to say, after being erased, they were sent to the Velvet Room, outside Conventional Reality, and had to reclaim their Right's to Exist alongside their Willpower if they wanted to so much as step foot into the Qliphoth. They could not appear there if they did not exist following this series logic on it, so they had to exist once more.

But they only couldn't be in Qlipopth. The Velvet Room is neither dream nor reality, so they can be existent here.
They don't say Velvet Room is beyond too.

Writers repeat themselves all the time. It's not new.

Except the light is said to be why they recognize Phantom Thieves. Why would the game lie?

Scans, if I may ask?
To my Knowledge, only Persona User's ever visit the Velvet Room. On the Rare occasion Velvet Attendants appear outside the VR, nearly no one bats a eye to their presence. I recall there being some strange thing involving Liz's Reflection or Shadow in the Movie that further implicates a lack of their presence to a natural viewer, though I do not have that scene to pull up. I cannot recall a single time where the Twins or any other Velvet Attendant is interacted with by a Normal Person.

When you take the twins out. Burger employees react to them, people react to Elizabeth being weird in Persona 3 (when she tosses money I think) and people interact with Marie.

No, it's a well informed inference. Luke clearly specifies what parts of the Death Quote are indicative of what he's conveying, of how it very likely seems to imply that Joker lost his willpower, and that's why he cannot continue. He explained how this fits with Megami Tensei's usual status quo as a whole, too.

So Joker lost his willpower after being dead?
The parts quoted says he "crumbled under his own justice" and "got extinguished" which are just ways to said he has been killed.
I feel like there's no proof of him coming back after being killed..

Respectfully, calling things Theories won't really get you anywhere.
Even putting aside the fact that at the moment, they lacked a existence and thus could not step into Qliphoth, the fact that they lacked their Persona's or any will of their own to continue was why they could not go back- They were all caged up waiting to slowly sink away into nothing, of course, until Joker appeared and reignited their Will's of Rebellion, at which point their prisons were broken free of.

If he says something the game didn't say, is it not a theory? I don't understand the problem.. Is it an insult?

Though lacking will to continue is them not wanting, which is what I said.