Perfecting Donnerverse Superman's Profile

[Rex_Eckles]

I really like our Donnerverse Superman profile, but there's just one thing that's bothered me for years:

Speed: FTL (Circled around the Earth at these speeds)

But this is wrong, as we all know that Clark time traveled to prevent Lois Lane's death. You may think this may just be a time travel ability and not immeasurable speed, however I would like to point to a statement from The Great Superman Movie Book:

The scan not only mentions that he can time travel via raw speed alone, but it also differentiates this level of speed from him surpassing the speed of light. Therefore, I propose we upgrade Donnerverse Superman to Immeasurable speed.

Now there is a question of whether this applies to his canon key, since the book was published prior to Superman Returns:

However, I would argue it should apply because:
1) The statement references to what happened in Superman the Movie, which is canon to Superman Returns
2) Since the book was released in 1983, the only Superman movies it references are 1, 2, and 3

This is important because, although Superman Returns prevents any movies happening between itself and Superman 2, CW's Crisis on Infinite Earths alludes to an event that happened in Superman 3. Given how finicky Returns is with the time period it takes place in (Within a few years, the world jumps from early 80s era to early 2000s era technology), it's not impossible that Superman 3 occurred after Returns in the canon timeline.

Agree: Ozcantabak

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Ozcantabak]

Agree of course

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I can't really agree with an solid Immeasurable speed rating; at best it would be flight speed though and actually a downgrade for his reactions/combat speed. But moreover, the context of his time travel was mainly him orbiting planet earth faster than the earth rotates in the opposite direction. Which was based on an outdated theory of time travel, but became popular within the lore in a lot of works at the time.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I can't really agree with an solid Immeasurable speed rating; at best it would be flight speed though and actually a downgrade for his reactions/combat speed. But moreover, the context of his time travel was mainly him orbiting planet earth faster than the earth rotates in the opposite direction. Which was based on an outdated theory of time travel, but became popular within the lore in a lot of works at the time.

Well, it does directly state that he is breaking the time barrier, and that the time travel is via his speed alone. The spinning Earth thing could just be a visualization of that.

I would imagine he would have to have comparable combat speed, given how he somehow knows when he's reached the right moment and must stop traveling.

If you don't want to go with that, we can still scale his reactions to FTL since he can react while flying and against other kryptonians in both continuities, and since the FTL statement is separate from the time travel, it can still apply as "non time traveling speed".

If we go with that, there's also this statement from the same book about Clark being able to go FTL and even fly across the universe

 

[Hacigeralt]

I agree

 

[Qawsedf234]

I can't really agree with an solid Immeasurable speed rating; at best it would be flight speed though and actually a downgrade for his reactions/combat speed. But moreover, the context of his time travel was mainly him orbiting planet earth faster than the earth rotates in the opposite direction. Which was based on an outdated theory of time travel, but became popular within the lore in a lot of works at the time.

This isn't an Immeasurable speed feat (not enough freedom of movement), but an active time travel power that works by breaking the time barrier.

The most I really see is changing this:

• Time Travel (Can reverse time by flying around the world)

To this

• Time Travel (Can travel through time by breaking the Time Barrier)

The 3.6c showing still happens before the Earth begins to rotate backwards, so it's still a valid speed showing in my view.

Though the better question is if this is even scalable as combat speed.

I would imagine he would have to have comparable combat speed, given how he somehow knows when he's reached the right moment and must stop traveling.

This wouldn't be combat or reaction speed for the same reason that Marty McFly doesn't have immeasurable speed. You need more active showings, such as fighting or showing extreme ease of movement, to get an immeasurable rating.

Also like... this speed rating just doesn't make sense. If Superman has immeasurable speed at all time literally no plot would make sense in any of the movies or subsequent TV shows.

If you don't want to go with that, we can still scale his reactions to FTL since he can react while flying and against other kryptonians in both continuities,

Reacting while flying doesn't mean much unless Superman does active stuff, same with the Kryptonians. It's why Smallville Superman got downgraded from MFTL+, since we couldn't find anything where he does rapid movement during his space flight scenes.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

This isn't an Immeasurable speed feat (not enough freedom of movement), but an active time travel power that works by breaking the time barrier.

The most I really see is changing this:
To this
The 3.6c showing still happens before the Earth begins to rotate backwards, so it's still a valid speed showing in my view.

Okay, fine.

Also like... this speed rating just doesn't make sense. If Superman has immeasurable speed at all time literally no plot would make sense in any of the movies or subsequent TV shows.

The same would be said if he just had the ability to time travel, or being able to travel eleventy kadillion times faster than he could react.

Anyways, at the very least, Superman has reacted to Non flying at him during combat, Non having no reason to hold back his speed. So we can scale some sort of flight speed to his reaction speed.

I also just realized that Superman should probably get Speed of Light attack speed given his heat vision is identical to Zods, which travels in a straight line, heats up objects, and reflects off mirrors.

 

[Ozcantabak]

Reacting while flying doesn't mean much unless Superman does active stuff, same with the Kryptonians. It's why Smallville Superman got downgraded from MFTL+, since we couldn't find anything where he does rapid movement during his space flight scenes.

This fight has both (Tyler and Routh) Superman reacting to each others flight speed and doing maneuvers mid flight, and we know Routh's Supes was bloodlusted cause he was mind controlled.

 

[PresentTrunks]

Though the better question is if this is even scalable as combat speed

He was saving people across the globe at rel+ speeds in Superman Returns. The implication was that he was basically blitzing back and forth between cities to save people, which might imply that he can react to his own flight speed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The same would be said if he just had the ability to time travel, or being able to travel eleventy kadillion times faster than he could react.

The former doesn't break the story, as it's a move he has to actively do, and Jor-El actively discouraged Superman from doing it in the first place. The later would still be travel speed, so this doesn't break anything.

Anyways, at the very least, Superman has reacted to Non flying at him during combat, Non having no reason to hold back his speed. So we can scale some sort of flight speed to his reaction speed.

So the issue here is that if FTL showing is travel speed, then all Kryptonians would share the same travel speed rating. To quote the page:

Regarding Travel/Flight Feats and Reactions​

If a character travels or flies very fast through a very empty terrain, in which it doesn't necessarily have to react to sudden obstacles, the speed in question is travel or flight speed, but not necessarily reaction speed. In order for it to also be reaction speed, and the speed in total hence applying to the character's combat speed, the character either must have demonstrated the ability to react to sudden obstacles while traveling at this speed, have a calculation made that supports the character having corresponding reaction speed/time or otherwise demonstrate having comparable reactions.

Simply being able to stop accurately at the target destination does typically not qualify, as it can be spotted from a large distance to make preparations to stop or the character could even slow down before reaching the destination, assuming we only know the average speed with which they moved.

The typical example of such cases of travel/flight speed that doesn't necessarily scale to reactions is space travel. As space is incredibly empty there are virtually no objects one has to navigate around between destinations. Just flying in a straight line from A to B would be safe. At the same time the typical destinations, such as stars and planets, are so large that they can easily be seen from millions of kilometers away. As a result a character would only need reactions equal to a minuscule fraction of their travel speed to perform a safe and precise landing on them.

So, Non flying isn't a FTL justification unless he had time to wind up to this speed rating.

I also just realized that Superman should probably get Speed of Light attack speed given his heat vision is identical to Zods, which travels in a straight line, heats up objects, and reflects off mirrors.

Alright

This fight has both (Tyler and Routh) Superman reacting to each others flight speed and doing maneuvers mid flight, and we know Routh's Supes was bloodlusted cause he was mind controlled.

That's not a justification, since CW Superman isn't FTL. This would indicate that Donnerverse Superman isn't as fast combat-wise. Unless CW Superman is going to get upgraded to that speed rating in the future.

He was saving people across the globe at rel+ speeds in Superman Returns. The implication was that he was basically blitzing back and forth between cities to save people, which might imply that he can react to his own flight speed.

If he was actively doing stuff then it would count as combat speed.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

So, Non flying isn't a FTL justification unless he had time to wind up to this speed rating.

Non had time to build up his speed here, also we see here that the Kyrptonians were flying after Superman for quite some time, and Ursa distracted him so Zod could land a hit, implying that Superman could have reacted to Zod otherwise.

That's not a justification, since CW Superman isn't FTL. This would indicate that Donnerverse Superman isn't as fast combat-wise. Unless CW Superman is going to get upgraded to that speed rating in the future.

It would indicate his flight speed isn't dissimilar from his travel speed nontheless.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I'm in agreement with Qawsed here.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Non had time to build up his speed here, also we see here that the Kyrptonians were flying after Superman for quite some time, and Ursa distracted him so Zod could land a hit, implying that Superman could have reacted to Zod otherwise.

None of that is really a good indication that they're reaching max speeds here to my knowledge. In the scene where he's calced to be FTL Superman screams in rage and still has to wind up for his flight. Non doesn't showcase travelling the same distance Superman did to get his speed to that level. Even the "across the universe" statement is a prime example of a travel speed statement.

It would indicate his flight speed isn't dissimilar from his travel speed nontheless.

This would indicate that they are different currently.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

None of that is really a good indication that they're reaching max speeds here to my knowledge. In the scene where he's calced to be FTL Superman screams in rage and still has to wind up for his flight. Non doesn't showcase travelling the same distance Superman did to get his speed to that level. Even the "across the universe" statement is a prime example of a travel speed statement.

This would indicate that they are different currently.

Well, if we can't use FTL for combat speed, can we use non-enraged Superman flight speed?

Like here?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Well, if we can't use FTL for combat speed, can we use non-enraged Superman flight speed?

Like here?

I'm fine with the Rel+ statement.

We probably can mention Superman's other FTL travel speed feats as well.

 

[Ozcantabak]

That's not a justification, since CW Superman isn't FTL. This would indicate that Donnerverse Superman isn't as fast combat-wise. Unless CW Superman is going to get upgraded to that speed rating in the future.

What Rex said, they are reacting to each others flight speed and yea cw Supes is outdated.
He, Routh's Superman and Tyler's Superman in S&L will all scale to one another. TLDR in a canon CW comic, people like Nora, Bart and Supergirl fight the evil S&L Supes from John Henry's world, John Henry breifly fights this Supes and he is comparable to main S&L Supes.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

We probably can mention Superman's other FTL travel speed feats as well.

Would that be applicable to combat speed, since it's clearly not a peak feat and he does it very quickly?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I made a calc for it regardless.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Would that be applicable to combat speed, since it's clearly not a peak feat and he does it very quickly?

No, because of the flight speed section:

The typical example of such cases of travel/flight speed that doesn't necessarily scale to reactions is space travel. As space is incredibly empty there are virtually no objects one has to navigate around between destinations. Just flying in a straight line from A to B would be safe. At the same time the typical destinations, such as stars and planets, are so large that they can easily be seen from millions of kilometers away. As a result a character would only need reactions equal to a minuscule fraction of their travel speed to perform a safe and precise landing on them.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

No, because of the flight speed section:

Well, we'll need a value for the non canon version of Superman, since the relativistic+ comes from Superman Returns.

 

[ByArrow]

That's not a justification, since CW Superman isn't FTL. This would indicate that Donnerverse Superman isn't as fast combat-wise. Unless CW Superman is going to get upgraded to that speed rating in the future

He is going to be upgraded.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Bump.

 

[Qawsedf234]

He is going to be upgraded.

If he's going to be upgraded, then to my knowledge Reeves/Earth-96 Superman doesn't have any anti-feats to suggest he can't be MFTL.

But that upgrade would need to be applied first. Since it would go Donner -> CW -> S&L

 

[Rex_Eckles]

If he's going to be upgraded, then to my knowledge Reeves/Earth-96 Superman doesn't have any anti-feats to suggest he can't be MFTL.

But that upgrade would need to be applied first. Since it would go Donner -> CW -> S&L

Can I at least add the updated time travel justification?

Also, regardless, we need a combat speed rating for the non canon version.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Can I at least add the updated time travel justification?

Also, regardless, we need a combat speed rating for the non canon version.

For Earth-96 Superman is would be Rel+, with MFTL+ travel speed (can fly across the universe). Just Reeves Superman it would probably just be the moon calc or a rating if he ever fights Nuclear Man across space.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

For Earth-96 Superman is would be Rel+, with MFTL+ travel speed (can fly across the universe). Just Reeves Superman it would probably just be the moon calc or a rating if he ever fights Nuclear Man across space.

He does fly to many places against Nuclear Man, I can get to calcing them.

By Moon calc, do you mean him moving the moon in Superman 4 or him pushing the nuclear bomb past the moon in Superman 2?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Pushing tbe Moon in 4 since he had to stop it as well as move it. Which is doing stuff compared to flying in a straight line for awhile.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Pushing tbe Moon in 4 since he had to stop it as well as move it. Which is doing stuff compared to flying in a straight line for awhile.

Okay, can we give Canon Superman a placeholder value in the meantime?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Okay, can we give Canon Superman a placeholder value in the meantime?

Yeah, Rel+ (Moved at newr lightspeed when stopping crimes across the world), MFTL+ travel speeds (Can fly across the universe)

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Mind if I apply everything?

 

[Qawsedf234]

If @DarkDragonMedeus is fine with it, then yeah

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

If @DarkDragonMedeus is fine with it, then yeah

Sure

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Changes made, this can be closed now.