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Our 2 most useless powers that should be removed

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The God Of Procrastination said:
Chain Manipulation is to object manipulation what petrification is to transmutation. You could argue that petrification is redundant, I guess.
Click to expand...
Chain Manipulation suffers not from redundancy, but from being overly specific. It creates a dangerous standard, and as Eficiente points out, it gives the wiki a bad image, accentuating an already outside belief that this wiki is far too technical and niche to be practical. It would not be hard to put object manipulation on any given profile, and simply put (of chains) next to it, or (of ____) in any case. In that instance, object manipulation would not only cover chain manipulation, but any existing specific manipulation, without needing to classify it as other terms.
 
@FinePoint and Eficiente

Agree regarding Chain Manip. If the argument for Chain Manipulation staying is that it's common enough in fiction then by that logic we should have a Sword Manipulation page because every Xianxia protag and their mother have it, not even mentioning western fiction. It's just the application of TK, Weapon Mastery or another ability at the end of the day so I don't know why we should keep a page specifically for chains anyway.

Honestly I'm down for an Object Manipulation page. Less specific and can be applied to a lot more powers.
 
I think Broadway Force is a form of Sound Manipulation since you need to either sing, play a song or create music (which requires you to make a sound) to cause anyone to dance with you against their will.

Doing Broadway Force with any other method is an entirely different ability.
 
Sweet (who doesn't have a profile here...yet) has at least Town Level (affected all of Sunnydale) Broadway Force that can cause Spontaneous Combustion if it goes on long enough.
 
@EmperorRorepme Yeah, since Object Manipulation being a broad power that covers a lot of things and would make it so much easier if it gets added soon.
 
I agree with the removal of chain manipulation. Kratos has it on his profile, but all he does with the chains is swing them around. He doesn't materialize them out of thin air(which would be weapon creation anyway), and he doesn't make them disappear either; they just wrap around his arms.
 
This "power" seems about as useful as if "bowstaff manipulation" was added to Donatello's profile. It's redundant in theory and practice, and more often than not they can be replaced by something else.
 
@MilesTheMorales Actually, creating chains is a form of object creation, not weapon creation since it isn't created to be an actual weapon but it can be used as one if the character prefers to use it that way. It's like when you create chains to bind someone in place, when chains are used this way, it isn't used as a weapon but as a form of binding.

I agree, Object Manipulation would get rid of several power profiles and take less effort to have to link all of them to their respective pages.
 
@Antvasima It should be a part of Sound Manipulation since it involves singing, playing a song, and music (which is based off of Sound).

Chain Manipulation can be covered by Object Manipulation since it covers quite a lot of powers if we add that power to the wiki.
 
Broad Way force is not sound manipulation; sound manipulation is just creating sound waves out of thin air and doesn't warp reality in a general sense. Broad Way force is basically causing reality warping and several other abilities at once via singing and dancing. It's literally it's own thing that exists.
 
@DarkDragonMedus Never said it is but rather as a subset that falls under it. Broadway Force doesn't always involve warping reality and that is just a bonus of the power if it can be used to that extent. Creating songs & dancing requires you to create a musical rhythmic sound and that would fall under Sound Manipulation.
 
Yes. I agree with Medeus. It should definitely be kept. Preferably chain manipulation too, as it is a rather common specific power set for characters.
 
@Antvasima There's various sub-forms of Sound Manipulation and Broadway Force fits this category.

I'm neutral on Chain Manipulation but it would be more preferred to be added under Object Manipulation if that page eventually gets added on the wiki imo.
 
My apologies, but Broadway Force incorporates a lot of different elements unconnected to sound manipulation. I think that we should preferably close this thread.
 
I agree, Broadway Force is already in some ways a sub power of reality warping, but dependent on specific methods and used for specific purposes. It's the ability to cause reality bending dance numbers and thus would qualify. And it often includes a wide variety of some powers within it as well.

I did say I was neutral on chain manipulation, but chain manipulation could also be used for many different purposes and there are enough varieties of chain manipulation to make it it's own ability. I mean, most people do think of it as a sub power of Metal Manipulation, but not all chains are made of metal. Some people can create chains out of cloth, hair, or various other elements. And there are characters who's power is creating chains out of a wide variety of elements but aren't quite element benders in the traditional sense. So I'm leaning towards Chain Manipulation staying.

Broadway Force should definitely stay, unless one once to replace it with something like Dance Manipulation, but I prefer to keep it as Broadway force.
 
Just to clear up:

  • Proficient in the use of chains as weapon: Weapon Mastery (Chains)
  • Directly controlling chains with the use of contact: Depends of the method, may stem to Metal Manipulation (Chain tends to be made of metal), Telekinesis (Controlling chains using the mind), etc.
  • Specifically controlling chains and nothing more, no matter the material: Object Manipulation (Chains).
 
We don't have a page for Object manipulation, but chain manipulation could be forming or creating chains and not all of them are made of metal. As well as being able to control them. Also Object manipulation would generally mean the character can control objects other than chains.
 
I made a draft of the power in case users agree to add it (actually, I think is posted in this thread). Similar with Organic Manipulation, Object Manipulation may only be limited to one specific object, is basically made for the purposes of redirections (like, a character has Chair Manipulation, one con simply redirect that power to Object Manipulation)
 
I suppose it could be an example of object manipulation if a page would get made, but I think a object manipulation introduction ability should have its own thread with a big list of profiles to correct given chain manipulation is on our wiki.

And such a thing should preferably be made after the forum move. But I overall still think both abilities should stay.
 
I think that this would be unnecessary revision work for no gain whatsoever. Both abilities should preferably stay.
 
@DarkDragon Transitioning into different scenes and dance numbers while doing a musical is almost never reality warping unless their reality actually does change legitimately, which almost every character can't do that unless they have toonforce that allows them to do this to an extent. The only 2 possible powers I know of would have to do with affecting your emotions and your mind.

Understandable, I suppose you make a good point about that for Chain Manipulation.
 
Magi. Characters with Broadway Force have shown to make stuff like make guns sing and the sun dance to their tunes, raise the dead so sing along to their songs, go to past events and sing as well as interact there with no effect on their normal lives, purposely have things fall into places so their song/dance isn't interrupted and in fact assists their rhythm, make the weather change instantly with the tone of their songs, break the fourth wall, manipulate light, manipulate animals, manipulate people into joining their songs, manipulate people's emotions and a **** ton more tertiary abilities.

Just like, imagine how many unneeded and bullshit abilities without context would be listed on profiles otherwise. The level of stuff you're saying is, is "Toon Force is just Physics Manipulation with Dimensional Storage"
 
Yeah I disagree with deleting Broadway Force and agree with DDM and Zark. Unless you want to make character pages unnecessarily bloated then it should stay and Broadway Force is by no means just Toonforce.
 
Welp, I suggested to create the Object Manipulation powers to be the "reddirection" of any supernatural powers that control specific objects, if they use TK to move chain+other stuff then remove the power, if they use chain as a convnetional weapon then remove the power. Similar with Organic Manipulation, I created it so people to not suggest powers like Sugar, Ink, Fuel Manipulation, and instead, write that power and reddirect it to Organic Manipulation. Either way, DDM suggested to not make any change until the forum move is alreasy done.
 
Pressure Points can be expanded upon to include both, yes.
 
@Zark I can't be blamed if the page itself lacks explanation of how Broadway Force also does all these things but then again, even with all of that, you still forgetting the actual process of what causes Broadway Force, not talking about its supernatural abilities of what it can do Zark.

Broadway Force = Creating songs and involves dances & instrumental pieces = a form of Music Manipulation = Music is created through and requires Sound = subset of Sound Manipulation, this is what I mean.

If you disagree with the deletion of it, then okay, I won't propose that anymore but that doesn't mean it isn't clearly a subset of Sound Manipulation regardless.

How Toonforce works is on an entirely different case here and has more reasons to be its own ability.
 
I suppose it would just be Chain manipulation to focus on; however, as said above, this isn't the best time to be deleting or rewriting such an ability.
 
I agree with Medeus.

It seems like Toon Force has been cleared to stay at least.
 
@Magi

"Mind Manipulation is just a subset of Biology Manipulation because Mind = Biological Entity = Biology Manipulation"

"Toon Force is just a subset of Physics Manipulation because Messing up Gravity = Gravity Manipulation = Physics Manipulation"

"Tiers 1 and 11 is just a subset of Mathematical Manipulation because Dimensions = Mathematical Superiority = Mathematics Manipulation"

"Tiers 10-3 is just a subset of Energy Manipulation because Joules Output = Energy Creation/Translation = Energy Manipulation"

Basically the level of stuff you're saying.

Anyways if this is at a stalemate for now can we close it and deal with this WHEN the forum shift resolves?
 
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