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Oryx, the Taken king vs Ahzek Ahriman

My current answer amounts to "I don't know, I'd really have to think" because they both have an absolutely obscene amount of options and a pretty large chunk of those are likely to be relevant in some way. Maybe I'll have something more definitive after contemplating it, a bit.
 
Okay but why though
 
For a more serious answer, I do think that hsing key 2 Oryx causes a lot of issues for Ahriman off the bat. It's almost like a chunk of the warp that is outright hostile to Ahriman that will attempt to isolate and destroy his very being like it did to Mara Sov. You know how Ahriman can screw over his opponents by putting everyone in the warp? This fight is almost as if it started this way, except in favor of Oryx. Most things are passive at this level, though Ahriman has tricks to get around that, but Oryx made this space via his own kills and has had billions of years to mess around with it. He's gone to the deepest pits of the Ascendant Plane and been touched by The Darkness itself, and I don't think that Ahriman's warp experience will trump Oryx's power in his own realm unless he gets them both out of there and does it fast.

I'd give Oryx the advantage rn, but not gonna vote yet.
 
Vote in the pocket, but I'm gonna wait since I feel like greater discussion could be had for these two monsters.
 
Does the mere fact key 2 Oryx is being used mean Ahriman is placed in Oryx's realm though? Or do we simply assume he has the abilities granted from being there.

Key 3 Magnus the Red cannot exist in-universe outside of the immaterium, but has never been treated as being there by default in any of his battles, to my knowledge. Though in that case, the automatic "home field advantage" that could be generated is even more immense.
 
I think Ahriman's best bet here is trying to somehow get Oryx in a place where the Warp can affect him and putting everything into Warp lure. I don't see Ahriman himself overriding his law and resistances in his own throne, and his Oversoul is shut off from both of Oryx's sisters so trying to go there is probably quite hard. With Oryx being Oryx Warp lure should prove effective in summoning something that gets by his stuff, but idk.
 
Well Oryx is weird because he actively uses his throne as a weapon even in key 1. With key 2 being him in that space I don't really see how he could be isolated from it, or wouldn't just manifest it instantly with his being there.

His ascendant space basically is his powers here.
 
I am thinking more in regards to verse equalization, because the difference between Oryx just treated as having everything from his 2nd key and Ahriman just kind of walking straight into Oryx's realm could possibly affect how easy it is for him to leave/utilize the immaterium/etc.

Of course, if we just assume it's the same, then I'll go based on that.
 
Well with Magnus, he didn't create the warp. He has tier 2 feats inside of it yeah, but that chunk of the warp isn't made manifest just by consequence of his existence.

Oryx made his throne by getting killed, and has sharpened it over time. Unlike the other Hive Gods his throne bleeds over into reality due to The Day of Eversion, which means it probably works about the same either way considering he corrupted the entire Dreaming City just by showing up. I haven't been assuming that for the other Hive Gods but I have been for his second key due to this difference. I think other people were assuming this for the other Hive Gods but not sure.
 
I mean, he didn't create the Warp, but he is quite literally a part of it. The majority of the powers and potency exclusive to that form are governed by how he can control the Warp around him, but his enemies are never assumed to have automatically been thrust into the Warp from the start, which would place them at a great many more disadvantages.

This case isn't as severe, but it's more a matter of do we assume Ahriman still has the immaterium underpinning the place he's fighting in to work with, or has he just walked somewhere it will be much harder to utilize?

If we're just going to assume standard verse equalization, then I assume it's the former.
 
wonder ehat happens if we just equalize ascendant space to the warp

I would think the warp still underpins creation in some way, but the nature of the AP would make it hard for him to draw on it as well, especially since Oryx's area in particular was sealed off from the incursions of both his sisters and the Vex as a collective after the one incident with Crota.
 
Definitely.

I just wanted to make sure we wouldn't go off the assumption the Warp underpins the battlefield less due to technically being in Oryx's AP, more so just that it was Oryx's power against Ahriman's, making things more difficult to draw on.
 
I don't think it would underpin things less due to Oryx's area being of a different verse, I think that would happen due to the characteristics of said space instead.
 
I guess that depends, considering I can't really think of anything in the actual setting it doesn't underpin, which extends to infinite universes and vast higher dimensions. The one exception I can think of would potentially be wherever the hell Ynnead is from, that seems to be some sort of drastically different area.

I guess it becomes a matter of "how much harder is it for Ahriman to draw on his powers in this area?", because if it's a notable difference from his perspective, he'd probably either want to leave as soon as possible or tear open entries to the Warp, gaining influence and strength. I think "leaving" is probably preferable to him, honestly.
 
Ynnead is not really the same thing as this. I can't really think of places actively fortified against being underpinned by other things besides stuff like the Culexus Temple and the Fortress of Silence just because there's a ton of blanks there, and even then it should still sorta be there in some way.

Considering that Oryx has several very lethal passives he's not gonna be able to hold out against for long in his own space leaving is what I would think he'd do first. The issue with this is that Oryx may be able to block that through his law and null, like when he trapped the PC in Crota's funeral and how he can disable the same transmats that let you go in and out of Vex areas.
 
Part of the reason for that is, I imagine, such a thing not really being feasible, in universe.

Oryx's passives are definitely a reason for Ahriman to leave, and he's definitely not going to be able to simply poof out of there as easily as usual, so I'm unsure of exactly what his opening play is. His own null, when he can fully utilize it, is likely superior to Oryx's, considering he rendered a being like the Yncarne near powerless to act against him. However, doing such a thing won't be as simple with his powers hindered, regardless of the extent.

Despite this, I don't think this'll render Ahriman completely inept. If he can interact with the Warp at least somewhat, he should still be able to do things such as disperse his own form into the immaterium, making himself more difficult to deal with. There is also the fact that Oryx may not find blocking Ahriman's access to the Warp as easy as blocking something like the passage created by transmats, which I recall just being matter transport.

Ahriman is at a disadvantage if forced to stay, but the problem is if he gets out, which I definitely think is still very possible, Oryx is left at a massive disadvantage. The influence of his best abilities do not extend to where Ahriman can tread, while the sorcerer's powers can still affect Oryx from afar.

I'm still undecided, for right now.
 
I gotta go to sleep, but before I leave:

  • Warp sniping stuff may not work too well, considering the special reinforcements of Oryx's space and his pervasive law. I don't think Ahriman's super long range stuff is aboe to really challenge his law in his own throne like that. If anything this may run the risk of Oryx adapting into learning warp manipulation, though I doubt Ahriman wouldn't catch on if this was to become an issue.
  • If Oryx is forced to follow, he can take his space with him. I guess it's like a more extreme version of how ships jump with a bubble of reality or something but he takes his rift in reality around wherever he goes in Canon so there's that.
  • If Ahriman leaves and decides to go prepare, I could see Oryx messing around with some of the Vex tech and make preparations of his own. He is bound to understand by the worm, since that's the concept he represents, and he's definitely done a lot of planning to destroy as many kingdoms as he did and contend with Savathun and Riven.
  • Oryx's range should be quite large, given that he was gonna destroy The Vex if the PC didn't intervene.
For once, his acausality actually doesn't just ruin the fight, since Ahriman has dealt with that, but due to Oryx resisting precog that could already precog other things like him, that may run into some issues.

As I see it, if Ahriman can isolate him from his own space and get him into open warp, he should be able to win via warp lure and whatever he did to the Yncarne. However, remember that Oryx's passives just killing him before he can leave is a very real possibility. The mental stuff is probably the easiest thing to get around by ejecting his mind away, but not necessarily the other effects.

Right now I would probably go with Ortx, though that could change.
 
This match won't go well. Honestly not sure who would win here.

Anyway. The Warp and Realspace aren't directly connected. There's a veil between the Warp and Realspace which stops the Warp from flooding into Realspace. So being in the Warp means you cannot be affected by being in Realspace unless by special means. Now I want to know the special means Oryx has to affect Ahriman from space. If he can't then Ahriman has a very good chance because there's a lot he can do from the warp to realspace.
 
@Wok

I'd seriously doubt Oryx learning to manipulate the Warp to a level remotely comparable to Ahriman in such a short timeframe. That seems like far too big of a leap, and just being able to manipulate it at all won't help much. Ahriman would definitely have an issue challenging Oryx's law, but he doesn't have to do it alone. He should still be perfectly capable of eventually causing some sort of warp rift, and even if the daemons that come from it are fodder, I don't think Oryx's law manip is good enough to stave off an eventual incursion of the Warp's own (lack of) laws, should it come to that.

I am not sure how much Oryx taking his space with him would help. Materium bubbles specifically help because they are a shield of "reality" that keeps out the worst of "unreality" around them, and even they wear out. With Ahriman actively attacking Oryx's defenses in a plane the Taken King is unfamiliar, I wouldn't expect such a thing to be a lasting defense, assuming Ahriman is able to goad him into following, in the first place.

Oryx taking advantage of prep is definitely a possibility, as well. I was more trying to point out the fact that Oryx's prep does notably less to help him murder Ahriman once the sorcerer has managed to escape the worst area of effect. Prep is still helpful of course, and throws another potential wrench into things.

Oryx's range is definitely a factor, but I am unsure of how much that helps him when Ahriman does not even need to return fully to reality. He could, but I'm not sure he'd want to.

Oryx's passives being able to kill Ahriman before he can properly counter them is a very real possibility, and one I assume he'd be quite concerned with. Regardless of if or if not his precog worked, he'd have means for alarm. What I am unsure about is the reliability with which Oryx can do this. It is, under normal circumstances, incredibly easy for Ahriman to simply leave. While this becomes profoundly more difficult when battling against Oryx's law, I am unsure of if Oryx can consistently counter absolutely every means Ahriman has of escape. The times he can before Ahriman manages to get out, he could pull off a relatively easy win. The times Ahriman manages to step out and collect himself for even a moment, Oryx becomes a lot less scary.

I am currently leaning towards inconclusive because I don't know for certain if I could say either option is more likely to happen than the other, especially if Ahriman's precog is an uncertainty. It's a battle in which the deciding moment would likely happen rather quickly.
 
His power copy is rather ridiculous though. He gained abilities like being entirely unbound by causality and just being able to decide something isn't true and in the process destroy an axiom across the entire AP (not just his section) through it, as well as he and his sisters level grinding being how he got so strong pre ascencion. He's already really smart which is only supplanted further by how he gain's his victim's knowledge on killing them, even if the death isn't permanent. I don't think he'd get to Ahriman level proficiency without well, killing Ahriman, but he doesn't need to because he can supplant it with his own powers. The warp lets powerful psykers and daemons and such with particularly strong wills impose laws on some sections if not contradicted from some greater force, and Oryx's Sword Logic is perfect for this sort if thing. I feel like getting deep enough into the Warp that Oryx and the Darkness can no longer cut off the flow would take long enough that Ahriman living that long can't be said to be a certainty anymore.

He doesn't necessarily need to persist for long though, due to having a lot of stuff to instantly kill Ahriman with if he can expand throne to overlap him even for the smallest amount of time. I'm not really sure about him instantly jumping in and following in the first place though, remember how he wanted to study geometry and the vex before just hopping into their area. I could see him sending out shades or sensories to keep Ahriman busy while he does a thing with The Darkness or the Vex tech he has access too, but I don't think he's just gonna eject his oversoul into the warp. There's also the issue of his extreme survivability and resistances. While Ahriman has ways around it, a majority of his spells can't permanently affect him for long, and the ones that can are gonna be much harder to pull off under duress if he can't incap Oryx to prime them.

With prep he has access to things like Oracles and Vex Simulation tech, with the Vex already being able to simulate infinite dimensional space in the mathematical sense. I don't think it makes him instantly win, but it is helpful.

His range lets him affect phase shifted Ahriman to some degree, since iirc he doesn't shift super deep into the warp if he plans to return to reality anytime soon. There was that fight with Amon's psykers where he tried it and they just followed him, after all.

I'll elaborate more on the passives later for EmperorReorme, but yeah I agree that something that defies his precog would definitely be cause for concern and make him leave or go hard from the start. Ahriman doesn't necessarily have to have every means of escape cut off, just enough of them, because he's being very quickly killed by what's essentially Oryx's version of warp abuse.
 
Im not understanding, how does oryx make it hard for ahriman whos connected to 1-A source to use his powers?

Wouldnt oryx entering the warp annihilate him?

But besides this. This thread may be pretty damn close
 
For now I vote Oryx for Wok's reasons.

BTW is Ahriman missing some resistances on his page since he apparently doesn't instantly get destroyed by Oryx's passives?
 
Tzeentchian immortality for Ahriman isn't really combat applicable. You don't need to be 1-A to go in the warp, and not everything tangentially related to the warp is 1-A. That would mean 1-A literally everyone since it's where everyone's souls are.
 
So the immortality wont protect him or keep him going incase oryx blows him up Or outhaxes?

Interesting. I may vot inco, as you both said there are many variables that need to be thought about

Or i may vote oryx, since youre making better arguments for him
 
Chaos Gods are really inconsistent with reviving their champions, though with Ahriman Tzeentch is likely to respawn him in some form. Didn't let Ahriman kill himself and once even changed his mind after personally killing him. The thing about it is that the way its done would respawn him in a place very not on the battlefield and probably years down the line.
 
Oryx already got stomped by The Emperor if anyone was wondering.
 
I think they want to see if he can get a loss that isn't a stomp.

So is Ahriman missing resistances on his page?
 
@Wok

(This is gonna be from my phone so excuse any potential horrific typos.)

I'm not so sure about that sort of power stacking. Oryx's Sword Logic is excellent, but I do not believe it and any potential Warp powers would complement each other. They are separate, and any warp proficieny would be governed strictly by experience and force of will. Which, while Oryx's willpower is immense, means notably less without experience. It's also important to remember that the Warp is extremely far from purely beneficial, and that Oryx is, if he connects to the Immaterium, connecting to a sea of ravenous conceptual predators in which he'll shine like a bright light. Unlike Ahriman, he has no experience using these things to his advantage. This is of course if Oryx connects to the Warp. If he doesn't, Ahriman's escape becomes drastically easier. Reaching somewhere specific in the Immaterium is far more problematic without any sort of connection to the Immaterium.

Of course, I would also doubt him just ejecting his essence into the Warp, which seems unwise, to say the least. Not doing so, however, severely limits his interaction with Ahriman. If Oryx does not follow, Ahriman is now far harder to affect. If Oryx doesn't connect to the Warp at all, Ahriman is now even harder to affect than that. While Oryx has a massive advantage if Ahriman fails to escape, his methods of winning if Ahriman gets out put him at extreme risk. As I mentioned, there are severe drawbacks to using the Warp, which Ahriman is already familiar with.

Is the fight with Amon's psyker's you're referring to the one in Exile? Was not that a weaker Ahriman who had not yet had his full ventures into Tzeentch's realm? To be fair, there's also the fact that Amon's psykers were using the exact same power source and means of transport as Ahriman, as well as being rather experienced (if I'm remembering right).

I agree that the passives mean he's a very, very dead man if he can't leave quickly. I just don't know if they kill him so quickly, he can't find an escape consistently, which is why I don't think the result is certain enough for me to say Oryx wins more times than not. Ahriman has enough means of dealing with Oryx if he can find a way to stop being passively murdered, and I can see this battle really being a toss up heavily affected by the first choices Ahriman makes.

(Also tfw you don't realize how almost dead your phone is until you nearly have to rewrite several paragraphs)
 
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