Origami King Buffs

[Robot972]

Welp. If we're not going to rebuff the entire verse, might as well rebuff a handful of characters that have no excuse for their current stats... Getting through this quickly, there's two adjustments I think should be made.


First off, the Legion of Stationary (which is currently just Hole Punch and Colored Pencils) as well as Paper Mario, Paper Bowser Jr, and Paper Kamek, plus Paper Bowser if he ever gets a profile, should scale to the Hole Punch being able to remove the sun from the sky. Whether that uses the standard Solar System level "destroying the sun" calc, a generic "Star level" placement, or requires a new calc, idk.



Then we get to King Olly, who within his fight folds the very fabric of reality. While we only see the immediate vicinity actively folding during the boss fight, we can see origami blocks stretching well out into the background, far beyond what remaining pillars of the Origami Castle didn't fall into the void below. This would also be supported by the Thousand Cranes Technique being considered "real, ultimate power", matching Olly's statements about his own Origami Power.

In the past, it's been argued that the statement was too vague to be used, but discussion leaned somewhat towards the possibility of this being viable. Given we outright see Olly Origamifying all visible surroundings, I think there is an argument to be made.


So briefly assuming that this is viable and we wouldn't just upscale Olly from the Legion of Stationary, the part that gets a bit more tricky is whether this should be put as Olly's base stats or an "Empowered by Origami" key. This part of the boss fight goes out of its way to emphasize how Origami empowers individuals, leading to Olivia folding Bowser to "strengthen [him] too". But at the same time, Olly is already made of and is constantly surrounded by Origami, implying he's always benefiting from the power of origami as he's already been shown to be capable of grand origamification prior to this reveal.

Even taking into account that his pre-fight plan was to use the cranes to perform the mass genocide of non-origami beings, after transforming into a giant, he talks about how his new power should be more than enough.

So this should probably get discussed a bit, but my guess is that King Olly should just have this as his base stats, given Olivia could also use this same power when folding Bowser. Olivia then scales to this and Mario and Bowser should also get a "Empowered by Origami" tier.



TL;DR

• Legion of Stationary and Recurring Cast (putting Island Level as a "Pre-Origami King" key and creating a new "Post-Origami King" key) should scale to Hole Punch removing the Sun (Solar System Level? Star Level)
• King Olly and Olivia, plus Mario and Bowser with "Empowered by Origami" tiers, should scale to King Olly folding the fabric of reality (Universal).
  • If considered too vague, upscale King Olly and Olivia to Hole Punch and give Mario and Bowser a "Higher when empowered by Origami" rating

Agree: Zespeon, Medeus, Starsprite, Mephistus, Omnifience
Neutral: .
Disagree: .

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

After reading, I can come to the conclusion that you forgot where you are and so this is typical darn mario wank as usual grrrrr i hate mario hes never gonna be tier 4-3

King Olly and Olivia, plus Mario and Bowser with "Empowered by Origami" tiers, should scale to King Olly folding the fabric of reality (Universal).

Jokes aside I completely agree with this. Good find and nice to learn about this. At worst its possibly, since Olivia says "it could strengthen you too"

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First off, the Legion of Stationary (which is currently just Hole Punch and Colored Pencils) as well as Paper Mario, Paper Bowser Jr, and Paper Kamek, plus Paper Bowser if he ever gets a profile, should scale to the Hole Punch being able to remove the sun from the sky. Whether that uses the standard Solar System level "destroying the sun" calc, a generic "Star level" placement, or requires a new calc, idk.

I think, people misunderstand the context of the 4-B calculation, that mostly consists of feats where people destroy a pocket dimension containing both an Earth and a Sun, with the sun being at the edge and the Earth being the center. And making use of inverse square law, where even the edge of an explosion is enough to destroy the sun. In the case of Hole Punch's feat, it would just be a regular star level feat.

But anyway, I have always supported that Origami King folding up the "Very fabric of reality/the universe" to be outright universal. And it's also consistent with a Low 2-C durability feat Mario, Peach, and Bowser have in Super Paper Mario; destruction of World 6.

 

[Robot972]

In the case of Hole Punch's feat, it would just be a regular star level feat.

Gotcha. That's what I was guessing it would end up being, but I saw the feat while writing this and thought I'd bring it up

 

[Starsprite53]

I agree

 

[Mephistus]

The german, spanish, dutch versions' lines for Olly about affecting reality indicate he's affecting the whole of reality, rather than a localized, or lesser part than the entirety fwtw. The japanese version...indicates more of a limitless strength deal from the looks of it.

"Look around you, Olivia. I fold reality itself." / "You see now, Olivia? I have folded reality itself." / "Look around you, Olivia. My folding material is the reality as you thought you knew it!"

 

[AStrangeverse]

But anyway, I have always supported that Origami King folding up the "Very fabric of reality/the universe" to be outright universal. And it's also consistent with a Low 2-C durability feat Mario, Peach, and Bowser have in Super Paper Mario; destruction of World 6.

didn't Tippie say she transported them outta there?

 

[Starsprite53]

didn't Tippie say she transported them outta there?

She didn't

 

[Robot972]

didn't Tippie say she transported them outta there?

In the english dub, they just sorta appeared back in Flipside. Even Tippi was acting like it was the end of everything prior to the cut, so there's no real indication she saved anyone.

 

[AStrangeverse]

In the english dub, they just sorta appeared back in Flipside. Even Tippi was acting like it was the end of everything prior to the cut, so there's no real indication she saved anyone.

is the japanese version any different, or does it maintain what the english side has going for it

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

is the japanese version any different, or does it maintain what the english side has going for it

AFAIK, the Japanese version isn't any different from the American version. Think whoever said the "Teleportation thing" was spreading head canon.

 

[AStrangeverse]

aight

 

[Robot972]

ngl forgot about this lmao

Bump

 

[Omnificence]

So far I'm in agreement.

 

[Robot972]

This is probably good to add, but I'm gonna bump to see if we can get a few more agrees

 

[IDK3465]

Yeah, looks good, agree for now

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

First off, the Legion of Stationary (which is currently just Hole Punch and Colored Pencils) as well as Paper Mario, Paper Bowser Jr, and Paper Kamek, plus Paper Bowser if he ever gets a profile, should scale to the Hole Punch being able to remove the sun from the sky.

Do we know that that's really comparable to the actual Sun? It's a cardboard disc less than ten meters across with one shining side, and its absence only seems to darken Scorching Sandpaper Desert and Snif City, and not any other areas. Also, Olivia seems to refer to the lack of sun as a feature of the desert itself:

What a strange place...a desert with a black hole in the sky where the sun should be.

Then we get to King Olly, who within his fight folds the very fabric of reality. While we only see the immediate vicinity actively folding during the boss fight, we can see origami blocks stretching well out into the background, far beyond what remaining pillars of the Origami Castle didn't fall into the void below.

Really? I only see origami blocks close enough to conceivably be part of the Origami Castle.

In the past, it's been argued that the statement was too vague to be used, but discussion leaned somewhat towards the possibility of this being viable. Given we outright see Olly Origamifying all visible surroundings, I think there is an argument to be made.

Well, yeah, "folding the fabric of reality" is vague, and doesn't necessarily imply anything more than Reality Warping. The thread also used Hole Punch stealing the Sun as evidence for Olly affecting more than just the planet, which I'm already contesting above, and the existence of Toads outside the planet, which, even assuming that it's also true in the Paper Mario universe (which it probably is, but I'm too lazy to check) or that the power of origami can affect the greater Mario universe outside the book, that would also not mean anything other than Universal range or higher.

• Legion of Stationary and Recurring Cast (putting Island Level as a "Pre-Origami King" key and creating a new "Post-Origami King" key) should scale to Hole Punch removing the Sun (Solar System Level? Star Level)

There's no indication that Paper Mario gained power between Color Splash and Origami King, which I think would be necessary for a stronger key.

 

[koopa3144]

Gonna note that someone applied the changes even though this crt needs one more staff approval before the changes can be applied.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Gonna note that someone applied the changes even though this crt needs one more staff approval before the changes can be applied.

Yeah, we need approval from more than one staff member before applying this.

There's no indication that Paper Mario gained power between Color Splash and Origami King, which I think would be necessary for a stronger key.

Paper Mario has plenty of instances and in lore statements; not just level up mechanics, about getting stronger after every fight. Or in TTYD's case, it was implied he has the ability to get stronger just from watching fights.

Do we know that that's really comparable to the actual Sun? It's a cardboard disc less than ten meters across with one shining side, and its absence only seems to darken Scorching Sandpaper Desert and Snif City, and not any other areas. Also, Olivia seems to refer to the lack of sun as a feature of the desert itself:

Modern Paper Mario animations in a nut shell are pretty gag heavy. But statements seem to imply light of the sun in general is gone iirc from what I hear.

Well, yeah, "folding the fabric of reality" is vague, and doesn't necessarily imply anything more than Reality Warping. The thread also used Hole Punch stealing the Sun as evidence for Olly affecting more than just the planet, which I'm already contesting above, and the existence of Toads outside the planet, which, even assuming that it's also true in the Paper Mario universe (which it probably is, but I'm too lazy to check) or that the power of origami can affect the greater Mario universe outside the book, that would also not mean anything other than Universal range or higher.

While I sort of understand it sounding vague, the Japanese version says "Fold the entire world like a sheet of origami." And it's shown that sun, moon, and stars in the background are included; not just the Earth. And we know all of it takes place in a full universe, it's never been established about the whole universe being some pocket dimension that is only planet sized.

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

Paper Mario has plenty of instances and in lore statements; not just level up mechanics, about getting stronger after every fight. Or in TTYD's case, it was implied he has the ability to get stronger just from watching fights.

Still, it's weird to have such a stronger key between two games that famously don't have leveling up.

Modern Paper Mario animations in a nut shell are pretty gag heavy. But statements seem to imply light of the sun in general is gone iirc from what I hear.

Yeah, but everything being made out of paper is such an important part of the game's cosmology that we can't just dismiss this instance as a gag, and these statements can be easily interpreted as saying that the light of the sun is gone in that region.

While I sort of understand it sounding vague, the Japanese version says "Fold the entire world like a sheet of origami."

When does it say that? Can you post a full translation?

And it's shown that sun, moon, and stars in the background are included; not just the Earth.

When is that shown?

And we know all of it takes place in a full universe, it's never been established about the whole universe being some pocket dimension that is only planet sized.

That wasn't what I was arguing. I was referring to the arguments in the previous thread that Olly was universal-tiered because he intended to kill every Toad, which would include the ones in outer space from Super Mario Galaxy, and arguing that killing them all with a wish wouldn't be equivalent to destroying the universe.

 

[Mephistus]

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

Thanks for the scans. But, yeah, "remake the world" (and, to a lesser extent, "turn the world into an origami work") could very much just mean world domination, and we also don't know if "world" has its same multiple connotations as it does in English.

Side note, do we even use non-English and non-Japanese scans like the Dutch one?

 

[Mephistus]

Thanks for the scans. But, yeah, "remake the world" (and, to a lesser extent, "turn the world into an origami work") could very much just mean world domination, and we also don't know if "world" has its same multiple connotations as it does in English.

I'm not sure how you think that, considering he's not doing something like a political game here.
Here Olivia states his desire to turn the world into origami, like he did with Peach's castle.

Side note, do we even use non-English and non-Japanese scans like the Dutch one?

In cases of vagueness for what we are talking about for Olly's end goal is to affect, I believe that is what we defaulted to using other versions to glean our interpretation based on prior threads, in which we also know the translation teams work side by side with the Japanese one, ignoring cases of direct narrative contradiction. Not like world hasn't been used before to relate to a whole universe in more than one instance in Super Paper Mario.

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

I'm not sure how you think that, considering he's not doing something like a political game here.
Here Olivia states his desire to turn the world into origami, like he did with Peach's castle.

Yep, take over the world by folding everything into origami.

In cases of vagueness for what we are talking about for Olly's end goal is to affect, I believe that is what we defaulted to using other versions to glean our interpretation based on prior threads, in which we also know the translation teams work side by side with the Japanese one, ignoring cases of direct narrative contradiction.

Huh.

Not like world hasn't been used before to relate to a whole universe in more than one instance in Super Paper Mario.

Yes, but are the corresponding non-English words the same? Also, as far as I'm concerned, world means planet unless shown otherwise.

 

[Mephistus]

Gonna note that someone applied the changes even though this crt needs one more staff approval before the changes can be applied.

Should be High 3-A, if we want to lowball. This guy has infinite Olly balls in his belly (even in the jp localization) and was folded by him.

 

[Omnificence]

So, what's the consensus here?

 

[IDK3465]

Should be High 3-A, if we want to lowball. This guy has infinite Olly balls in his belly (even in the jp localization) and was folded by him.

Yeah… no… just because he has “unlimited balls” doesn’t actually mean his stomach’s somehow an entire infinite pocket dimension. It’s just too far of a stretch to assume something THAT MASSIVE over a single throwaway line that the devs probably just put in there to say “you can’t just wait until he runs out dude.”

 

[Mephistus]

Yeah… no… just because he has “unlimited balls” doesn’t actually mean his stomach’s somehow an entire infinite pocket dimension. It’s just too far of a stretch to assume something THAT MASSIVE over a single throwaway line that the devs probably just put in there to say “you can’t just wait until he runs out dude.”

"Il en a une infinité dans son ventre. / He has an infinite amount of them in his belly."

I disagree given the goofiness of the series, but go along with the incredulity, I'm sure we need something obvious like warping a universe.

 

[Robot972]

Gonna note that someone applied the changes even though this crt needs one more staff approval before the changes can be applied.

My bad. Tried looking for the rules on that and couldn't find a hard number.

 

[Robot972]

Still, it's weird to have such a stronger key between two games that famously don't have leveling up.

I don't really see the issue. It's not like this is the first time a non-leveled game introduces a drastically higher feat tier.

Like, all we really need to look at is the difference between Mario pre-Mushroom Kingdom and post-Mushroom Kingdom to see the massive difference. Dude started off pretty much human, then scaled to electricity timing, then was moving on par with lasers.

And if we're looking at strength in the same regard, you're talking human to killing miniature, region-locked stars within basically the same timeframe.

 

[Robot972]

Also, considering the Island Level is pre-Paper Mario 64 tiering, that only further emphasizes that the gap is reasonable

 

[Robot972]

Quick bump

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

I don't really see the issue. It's not like this is the first time a non-leveled game introduces a drastically higher feat tier.

Like, all we really need to look at is the difference between Mario pre-Mushroom Kingdom and post-Mushroom Kingdom to see the massive difference. Dude started off pretty much human, then scaled to electricity timing, then was moving on par with lasers.

And if we're looking at strength in the same regard, you're talking human to killing miniature, region-locked stars within basically the same timeframe.

The difference is that, in those cases, we don't arbitrarily make a different key. We just take the stronger ratings into account for the tier.

Also, considering the Island Level is pre-Paper Mario 64 tiering, that only further emphasizes that the gap is reasonable

It really isn't. The low bound for Star level is, if my back-of-the-napkin math works out, over four sextillion times the Island-leveled calculation that Mario scales to. It'd be weird for a profile to have arbitrary keys between adjacent tiers, and it's even weirder to have one for such drastically different ones.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also forgot to mention that even the Paper Mario titles with no level up system have collectable HP enhancers that are interpreted as "Mario getting stronger throughout the journey." And even if you don't like comparing it to other RPG protagonist, it's something giving more like Link from the LoZ series.

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

I also forgot to mention that even the Paper Mario titles with no level up system have collectable HP enhancers that are interpreted as "Mario getting stronger throughout the journey." And even if you don't like comparing it to other RPG protagonist, it's something giving more like Link from the LoZ series.

Dang, forgot about that. It even boosts Mario's first strike, if I recall correctly. It's still weird using that as a justification for having different keys between games, when the HP and first strike boosts reset. Of course, none of that matters if the sun that Hole Punch steals isn't actually comparable to a star.

 

[Robot972]

The difference is that, in those cases, we don't arbitrarily make a different key. We just take the stronger ratings into account for the tier.

I’d point to Kirby, which has separate keys for Pre Canvas Curse as well as Pre and Post Star Allies.

It really isn't. The low bound for Star level is, if my back-of-the-napkin math works out, over four sextillion times the Island-leveled calculation that Mario scales to. It'd be weird for a profile to have arbitrary keys between adjacent tiers, and it's even weirder to have one for such drastically different ones.

I was editing the response a bunch to try and determine what I wanted to say, but at one point I did outright provide a proper comparison.

So, for example, Volcarona can be used as a comparison for the Angry Sun given their similar feats of being region-locked suns. Comparing that to an estimated baseline average human Mario for Donkey Kong arcade makes a difference of 3.22 quadrillion times. About a million times less than Super Mario RPG to Origami King, yes, but it’s also less intense adventures with no leveling up at any point between those two games

 

[Robot972]

Frankly I stand by the opinion that we should have a key for Mario pre-Mushroom Kingdom

We give anime characters 300 keys to mark their development, but we barely do the same for game characters



Also, we currently have Wart scaling to events that happen well after SMB2

 

[Robot972]

Bump

 

[Robot972]

Bump

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

I’d point to Kirby, which has separate keys for Pre Canvas Curse as well as Pre and Post Star Allies.

I don't know how Kirby scaling works, but if it's without reason like this, then Kirby scaling is weird too.

So, for example, Volcarona can be used as a comparison for the Angry Sun given their similar feats of being region-locked suns. Comparing that to an estimated baseline average human Mario for Donkey Kong arcade makes a difference of 3.22 quadrillion times. About a million times less than Super Mario RPG to Origami King, yes, but it’s also less intense adventures with no leveling up at any point between those two games

That's not how Mario scaling works. Dunno why you made this hypothetical.

Anyhow, this debate, again, is worthless if you don't address the sun thing.

Frankly I stand by the opinion that we should have a key for Mario pre-Mushroom Kingdom

Off-topic, but Baby Mario throws a wrench in that idea.