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Ordinary Magician vs Keyblade Wielder [Marisa Kirisame vs Sora: Battle for Most Skilled on the Wiki || GRACE]

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Alright, let's get this started. Obviously, all stats equalized, no hax minus stuff like enhanced senses/ESP, only skill will be the determining factor here. So with that, here's Marisa's working with:
General Skill/Experience

Marisa has been fighting and exterminating youkai for decades at this point (nearly 30 games across over 25 years, including numerous manga and light novels), to the point where she's learned the smell of blood from experience on the battlefield alone. To her, a world without conflict is Hell, and she claims to be an experienced veteran. She regularly engages in image training (essentially playing out an entire battle in her head using mental images), winning 101 times out of 100. She's highly skilled in the art of danmaku, creating highly complex bullet hell patterns on the fly, and dodging whatever everyone else throws at her even when their attacks spawn from nowhere or remove her senses. In some cases, she's fought while her senses and perception of space were warped and she was forced to deal with reality and hallucinations dematerializing and rematerializing. Aside from that, she's an expert in improvised weaponry, using a regular broomstick as an improvised rifle, or stringing together melee combos while simultaneously using it for flight. During Unconnected Marketeers, she was able to master the use of ability cards so quickly that their creator outright mentioned her brilliance in using them. She possesses encyclopedic knowledge on hundreds of different of techniques, many of which she's only seen a single time (this sort of insane memory is consistent btw), detailing countless specific traits of these spell cards in the process. She's also highly skilled in copying magic, being able to do so after seeing a technique once, and magicians have a tendency to experiment with such techniques to improve it beyond what its original user can do (on top of mimicry like this being implied to be the norm).

Alongside Reimu, she can track down dangerous youkai across all of Gensokyo for days straight without any rest, or climb entire mountains that are being constantly battered by high winds without any equipment. During the events of LoLK, her canon ending involves getting a no-miss 1CC throughout the entire game (which basically just means doing a single flawless run in what is considered one of the most difficult Touhou games).

Her skill is so great that she has become one of the strongest known users of fire magic in Gensokyo in a short timeframe, despite her natural water affinity (something already noted to be "quite a feat"); This is specifically important because using magic that doesn't align with your elemental affinity can straight up nullify the spell you're using, which means Marisa has trained to overcome supernatural power null just by being that good at magic. She's also fought and defeated people who possess elemental affinities that should cancel out her own - Something that's noted to effectively decide a fight before it even begins. That's not to say she lacks skill in water magic; In fact, she's so good at it, that youkai whose entire existence revolves around the manipulation of water and have been controlling the waves for years consider Marisa highly skilled in water-based techniques. She's a savant in the field of magic in general, pushing forth new theories of magic and tackling pre-existing theories, such as elemental affinities being limited to five types, and the new spells she develops surprise even youkai. Her knowledge in magical theory is great enough that centuries old youkai like Suika admit her theories are spot-on; This includes breaking down the hidden power of the oni, which is inherently impossible to even fathom, as it is powered directly by remaining unknowable.

Getting a little more extreme, she can dodge weather like rain or snow, and in fact considers them easy to dodge. This is supported by how even fodder enemies like fairies train by dodging falling snowflakes, which if you didn't know, is physically impossible. She's also highly adaptable, going from being dumbfounded by the illusion obscuring the true moon in Imperishable Night, before later seeing through it in her bad ending (the game takes place over the course of about 5-6 hours lol). In IaMP, she's noted to have terrible martial arts skills, but within the course of a couple of fights, she's mastered CQC to the extent of matching and later even surpassing Meiling, a highly skilled martial artist who trains regularly and whose skills are a rarity among youkai.

Enhanced Senses/ESP

Marisa has a lot of these so I'll just list them all lol

She can sense spatial distortions, sources of magical energy, a person's aura, the pure energy possessed by Junko, someone's power level, or the amount of "spring" they possess. She's noted to have a good nose that lets her detect the smell of blood or youkai, the smell of death itself, treasure, or track down the Occult Balls across Gensokyo in a single day, something noted to be a ridiculous feat. This includes locations that are above the clouds, or even The Palace of Earth Spirits, a place within Former Hell, which is an Otherworld and therefore a completely separate dimension that can't be accessed normally. Her eyes and nose are so sensitive that it's actually extremely easy for her senses to overwhelm her. She can see through the disguise of experienced tanuki like Mamizou, something not even Reimu can do (see below). She's also fought in dark conditions totally fine, even when afflicted with Mystia's ability to induce night blindness. Her ESP can detect the magic power being manipulated by Okina Matara, something that jizo like Narumi are unable to do despite their innate ability to detect magic power. For some ungodly reason, her ESP also lets her detect if a player has continued. It should be noted that Marisa's ESP works perfectly fine on youkai, which possess "unreadable atmospheres", which also make them nigh-impossible to adapt to by extension.

Stealth

For starters, she's able to sneak into heavily guarded locations like Eientei, which was being guarded by a number of youkai rabbits. Youkai rabbits possess the already heightened senses of regular youkai (vision in pitch-black conditions, infrared vision, etc), on top of even sharper senses, which also includes the ability to see the souls of living beings, or possibly even the "pulse" of the moon. Not only that, but they can detect people's wavelengths, tap into the minds of those around them, and are inherently linked like a pseudo-hivemind. Marisa snuck past dozens of youkai rabbits with minimal effort.

This is somehow not her most absurd feat; While speaking with Reimu on one occasion, they were interrupted by Yuyuko and Satori. When Reimu mentions Marisa, she realizes she's just... gone. So despite being in two people's direct line of sight (and a third person's peripheral vision), Marisa practically just vanished into thin air. Already absurd, but let's look at the enhanced senses she'd have to bypass to do that:

-Reimu has an inherent intuition that lets her track down people and locations innately, quite literally a 6th sense. It is superior to other forms of ESP, and she's used it to track down locations like Eientei, which exists outside of time, history, and the world itself. She can pinpoint the locations of 18 separate beings at once just by focusing, easily see through illusions or disguises, detect people's auras, see nonexistent beings, follow trails of power to track people down, or detect the energy leaking from a person's body. Perhaps most notably though, is the aforementioned feat of navigating her way to Eientei. This is something characters like Aya cannot accomplish deliberately, and her senses are good enough to hear the sound generated by entire alternate dimensions (cosmic awareness lmao), be described as completely transcending the world that Marisa perceives, feel energy that is on the verge of disappearing from existence, hear rumors on the wind, or just... generally be really good. So, Marisa's stealth > Reimu's senses > Aya's enhanced senses bordering on cosmic fvcking awareness.

-Satori has some of those good youkai senses I mentioned before, in addition to her abilities as a telepath; Even when she doesn't intend to, she's constantly reading not just the thoughts of those around her, but the leftover traces of those thoughts that remain after a person has already disappeared... Which means Marisa's stealth isn't just evading physical detection, but also completely eliminating any traces of her own thoughts.

-Yuyuko admittedly doesn't have much in the way of bullshit feats, but she can detect a corpse under a tree from meters away and immediately deduce how long it had been decaying for.

She's also disappeared from the perception of Flandre, who can detect a person's disposition. So, in conclusion, her stealth borders on straight up invisibility.

Social Influencing

Idk if this really counts as skill, but eh, fvck it. She managed to trick Tewi Inaba into eating a poisonous leaf, and Tewi is someone whose knowledge on poison is superior to that of Medicine Melancholy, someone who is quite literally made of poison, was born as a result of poison, and has mastered the use of various poisons to a degree that nobody else has. She could talk Yorihime out of killing her and a handful of others despite being tied up, or make Utsuho, someone consumed by divine madness driving her to reduce the planet to ashes, completely submissive to her.

Intstinctive Reaction

Marisa has perhaps some of the most insane showings of this I've seen before. On two separate occasions, she dueled and won against Koishi Komeiji, who does not exist. The nature of her nonexistence makes her impossible to perceive (something Marisa herself notes), as is her danmaku. All traces of her existence are erased, and even in the case someone does detect her, her attacks are completely unreadable and they forget about her in a matter of seconds. Notably, due to lacking a conscious mind, every single action Koishi takes is subconscious, meaning she has 24/7 instinctive action. This is on top of her manipulation of the subconscious, wherein she is able to make people completely unaware of her attacks, basically perceiving them as if there's no threat at all.

There is, of course, also the time she casually dodged attacks from Youmu Konpaku while sitting down and drinking (and her sake not even drop!). Youmu is a master swordswoman in her own right, but in this scenario she was also being actively amplified by Clownpiece's torch, which brings out a person's full potential. Even without that, though, she's fast enough to casually blitz Aya Shameimaru, as well as fight entire danmaku battles and win without realizing it. Aya herself can also fight entire battles without realizing, and is so fast that Sakuya needs to use her time stop to track her movement... and Sakuya is able to keep up with beings who can move faster than Marisa can track (so Youmu's combat speed >>> Aya >>> Sakuya >>> Marisa). To recap, that's three degrees of blitzing and instinctive action being dodged by someone who's casually sitting down, enjoying a nice meal, and chatting with her friends.

FWIW, she can also dodge attacks she can't perceive using her mind's eye, but that just supports what I've already said.

Scaling

Given the nature of Touhou, there are a lot of skill feats other characters have performed, and Marisa scales to a good number of them. Compared to youkai, it appears as though her dodging is like that of bits of paper floating through the air; Impressive, given youkai have the precision to roll dice in such a way that perfectly replicates the previous roll's angle, force, rotation, and result. Her danmaku is on the same level as gods like Suwako, who has lived for hundreds of years and was a noted leader in her own time. She's fought against and defeated enemies like Yuyuko, who can fight with her eyes closed, or Remilia, who is stated to be a spell card veteran and can fight her own afterimages. She's superior to fodder enemies like moon rabbits, many of whom are war veterans, and can learn how to engage in spell card duels and even beat three separate, more experienced opponents mere seconds after their first exposure to the concept. This sort of fast learning is consistent among spell card users, as characters like Byakuren and the Tsukumo sisters could master their use mere seconds after being unsealed after centuries and born into existence, respectively. She's fought and defeated Tenshi Hinanawi, whose sword passively analyzes and adapts to the strengths and weaknesses of her opponent, and Eirin Yagokoro, who has quite literally existed for an infinite period of time. Finally, she was able to come up with a strategy to beat Okina Matara shortly after her initial defeat, as well as beat her the second time around despite Okina being able to react to and deflect surprise attacks while deafened.
And here's what Sora has:
Now, before I start, I'd recommend giving this a read, it really expands on what's skill and how it's considerable in fiction and whatever.

Analytical Prediction:

- Sora was capable of opening on Yozora's unusual openings (Yozora will be brought up quite often, so you'll see what I mean) compared to everyone else he fought before, and can even take selfies while weaponless while still dodging anyways (and yeah, that's kinda in-character).

Accelerated Development:

- With only a few months of adventures across the multiverse and with next to no training besides his own, Sora could already compete against properly trained formal Keyblade Masters that were far older than him. Xehanort sticks out out of being over 80 years old and having several kinds of proeficiently usable weapons and powers inherited from other characters, which Sora could totally keep up with.

- Could also quickly grasp the usage of several other forms for his Keyblade as soon as he got them, notably also including the capability to pilot a chariot and a transformation of his Keyblade to nanotech that converts to whatever weapon Sora has in mind (which includes basically most Formchanges, see below).

General Skills and Moveset:

- Has mastered the usage of several kinds of weapons while also switching between them on the fly to optimize combos, besides a sword (Keyblade), there's also a showcased considerable usage of the following by transforming it (Formchanging), which is also regarded as a more refined technique than dual wielding: Hammer, flag, yo-yos, drill, shield, claws, arrowguns, cannon, (magical) staff, skates and arm blades, nanotech and even more blades. Of note is that he can also dual wield Keyblades (as implied before), triple wield even, and has adapted to backfiring the weapon of the opponent, which has included a scythe and a claymore as well. Later on he also displays the capabiity to wield from 7 swords at once to 20, then way more I can count by doing a danmaku as he directly deflects it himself to opponents.

- In terms of mobility, besides the countless mobility options applicable to a good portion of the moves usable with the above weapons and stuff, to the point "endless" combos are possible if the opponent lacks straight up notable flight or teleportation, namely by preventing the opponent from having a chance to do much at all, Sora has also displayed the capability to perform aerial dashes, recover quickly after being sent flying (Aerial Recovery) and wall jumping (Flowmotion), let alone the capability to spam Aerial Dodge, acting as a flight enhancement that also minimizes considerably vulnerability.

- Lore-wise, Sora's only not regarded formally as a Keyblade Master out of failing the Mark of Mastery (or rather, was disqualified out of external events), even if he can still beat up "proper" Keyblade Masters like Aqua and is straight up above King Mickey, who has been one for over a decade. In any case, beings like Sora are regarded in the Age of Fairytales (which inherit his power, and are already aware of Keyblade Masters themselves) as "unimaginable forces of the future".

- Could go all on his own against an army of 1000 opponents, and displays tactical knowledge out of dividing the work between Donald and Goofy for the whole army, and has been able to keep up with multiple opponents at once, be it with their own fighting styles to synchronized duplicates of the respective character, and Sora can also make avatars of himself to overwhelm opponents as well in synchronization.

Intelligence and Information Analysis:

- Could quickly grasp the concept of programming to the point he can edit code that's changing in real time for a variety of effects, has performed multiple kinds of sports and met tens of cultures across the multiverse, in any case scans for that stuff are on the Intelligence section of the profile.

- Could surprise Master Xehanort, who was seemingly aware of the last contents of the Book of Prophecies, which foretold his victory, yet Sora could overwrite that with an outside the box usage of the Power of Waking.

- Like several other characters, Sora has the innate ability to see the remaining health of the opponent, and even has the sense to tell where the opponent is even if he's not directly seeing it.

- Can find the "real" Luxord between many duplicate cards before he runs out of time.

Instinctive Reaction:

- Could reflect omnidirectional lasers of nonexistencial nature from all directions in synchronization with Riku, later on he has also displayed the capability to do it on his own even while having to worry about unreflectable bullets and surprise attacks.

- Has shown the capability to react to attacks from behind with no prior in-universe warning and plenty of teleport-based or "instant" attacks as well, let alone while also having to worry about a nearby danmaku of lasers.

Mimicry:

- Read the Intelligence section on the page in the KHII section for more information, but basically, Sora has shown the capability to quickly replicate skills from his opponents mid-battle, from gambling to teleporting around and jumping.

- Has been stealing Roxas's fighting style out of his ability to fight quite similarly to him while in Double Form.

----

Also, fun fact, Sora has an higher intelligence rating right now than Dante, let that sink in.

Marisa (9): @ztarwarz, @Kirbonic_Pikmin, @AdamHkureiJanitor, @OverlordDonnelly, @Samael_010, @Deidalius, @Theglassman12, @Dragonite007, @Fezzih_007
Sora (2): @Bobsican, @Da3ggman
Incon:
 
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Alright I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, I think Marisa stomps. No accuracy or dodging feat listed for Sora comes even close to dodging literal weather, and Sora's IR is severely lacking compared to dodging someone who can blitz you three times over while casually sitting down, or fighting entire battles with someone whose existence you can't even perceive. Marisa is also significantly more adaptable, upscaling from fodder who can master new fighting styles and surpass experienced users of it in mere moments, on top of her own ability to bypass her innate weaknesses within a matter of days or even hours just through her constant training and research. Both admittedly can copy techniques at a glance, so they're equal in that regard, but Marisa can do - or scale to - a lot of things that Sora simply can't; The whole youkai dice roll thing, surpassing passive analysis and reactive evolution, talking down would-be executioners and planet busters, or sneaking past entire hiveminds or someone with 50 trillion different kinds of ESP that surpass even pseudo-cosmic awareness.

In short, everything Sora can do, Marisa can do better, and there's quite a lot she can do that Sora cannot.
 
Marisa, I'm not even sure I'd classify all the things listed in the Sora sheet as "skill" and I feel like Marisa's wall of text is superior in terms of sheer skill even ignoring that.
 
Marisa, I'm not even sure I'd classify all the things listed in the Sora sheet as "skill" and I feel like Marisa's wall of text is superior in terms of sheer skill even ignoring that.
Tbh I also find Sora's skill list a bit sus but I at least wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt lol
 
Btw I added this to Marisa's ESP section, it just means her senses can work on beings who naturally resist ESP for some fvcking reason.
image.png
 
Alright, let's get this started. Obviously, all stats equalized, no hax minus stuff like enhanced senses/ESP, only skill will be the determining factor here. So with that, here's Marisa's working with:
General Skill/Experience

Marisa has been fighting and exterminating youkai for decades at this point (nearly 30 games across over 25 years, including numerous manga and light novels), to the point where she's learned the smell of blood from experience on the battlefield alone. To her, a world without conflict is Hell, and she claims to be an experienced veteran. She regularly engages in image training (essentially playing out an entire battle in her head using mental images), winning 101 times out of 100. Not as impressively, she can also dodge near-point blank gunshots from characters comparable in speed. She's highly skilled in the art of danmaku, creating highly complex bullet hell patterns on the fly, and dodging whatever everyone else throws at her. Aside from that, she's an expert in improvised weaponry, using a regular broomstick as an improvised rifle, or stringing together melee combos while simultaneously using it for flight. During Unconnected Marketeers, she was able to master the use of ability cards so quickly that their creator outright mentioned her brilliance in using them. She possesses encyclopedic knowledge on hundreds of different of techniques, many of which she's only seen a single time (this sort of insane memory is consistent btw), detailing countless specific traits of these spell cards in the process. She's also highly skilled in copying magic, being able to do so after seeing a technique once, and magicians have a tendency to experiment with such techniques to improve it beyond what its original user can do (on top of mimicry like this being implied to be the norm).

Alongside Reimu, she can track down dangerous youkai across all of Gensokyo for days straight without any rest, or climb entire mountains that are being constantly battered by high winds without any equipment. During the events of LoLK, her canon ending involves getting a no-miss 1CC throughout the entire game (which basically just means doing a single flawless run in what is considered one of the most difficult Touhou games).

Her skill is so great that she has become one of the strongest known users of fire magic in Gensokyo in a short timeframe, despite her natural water affinity (something already noted to be "quite a feat"); This is specifically important because using magic that doesn't align with your elemental affinity can straight up nullify the spell you're using, which means Marisa has trained to overcome supernatural power null just by being that good at magic. That's not to say she lacks skill in water magic; In fact, she's so good at it, that youkai whose entire existence revolves around the manipulation of water and have been controlling the waves for years consider Marisa highly skilled in water-based techniques. She's a savant in the field of magic in general, pushing forth new theories of magic and tackling pre-existing theories, such as elemental affinities being limited to five types, and the new spells she develops surprise even youkai. Her knowledge in magical theory is great enough that centuries old youkai like Suika admit her theories are spot-on; This includes breaking down the hidden power of the oni, which is inherently impossible to even fathom, as it is powered directly by remaining unknowable.

Getting a little more extreme, she can dodge weather like rain or snow, and in fact considers them easy to dodge. This is supported by how even fodder enemies like fairies train by dodging falling snowflakes, which if you didn't know, is physically impossible. She's also highly adaptable, going from being dumbfounded by the illusion obscuring the true moon in Imperishable Night, before later seeing through it in her bad ending (the game takes place over the course of about 5-6 hours lol). In IaMP, she's noted to have terrible martial arts skills, but within the course of a couple of fights, she's mastered CQC to the extent of matching and later even surpassing Meiling, a highly skilled martial artist who trains regularly and whose skills are a rarity among youkai.

Enhanced Senses/ESP

Marisa has a lot of these so I'll just list them all lol

She can sense spatial distortions, sources of magical energy, a person's aura, the pure energy possessed by Junko, someone's power level, or the amount of "spring" they possess. She's noted to have a good nose that lets her detect the smell of blood or youkai, the smell of death itself, treasure, or track down the Occult Balls across Gensokyo in a single day, something noted to be a ridiculous feat. This includes locations that are above the clouds, or even The Palace of Earth Spirits, a place within Former Hell, which is an Otherworld and therefore a completely separate dimension that can't be accessed normally. Her eyes and nose are so sensitive that it's actually extremely easy for her senses to overwhelm her. She can see through the disguise of experienced tanuki like Mamizou, something not even Reimu can do (see below). She's also fought in dark conditions totally fine, even when afflicted with Mystia's ability to induce night blindness. Her ESP can detect the magic power being manipulated by Okina Matara, something that jizo like Narumi are unable to do despite their innate ability to detect magic power. For some ungodly reason, her ESP also lets her detect if a player has continued. It should be noted that Marisa's ESP works perfectly fine on youkai, which possess "unreadable atmospheres", which also make them nigh-impossible to adapt to by extension.

Stealth

For starters, she's able to sneak into heavily guarded locations like Eientei, which was being guarded by a number of youkai rabbits. Youkai rabbits possess the already heightened senses of regular youkai (vision in pitch-black conditions, infrared vision, etc), on top of even sharper senses, which also includes the ability to see the souls of living beings, or possibly even the "pulse" of the moon. Not only that, but they can detect people's wavelengths, tap into the minds of those around them, and are inherently linked like a pseudo-hivemind. Marisa snuck past dozens of youkai rabbits with minimal effort.

This is somehow not her most absurd feat; While speaking with Reimu on one occasion, they were interrupted by Yuyuko and Satori. When Reimu mentions Marisa, she realizes she's just... gone. So despite being in two people's direct line of sight (and a third person's peripheral vision), Marisa practically just vanished into thin air. Already absurd, but let's look at the enhanced senses she'd have to bypass to do that:

-Reimu has an inherent intuition that lets her track down people and locations innately, quite literally a 6th sense. It is superior to other forms of ESP, and she's used it to track down locations like Eientei, which exists outside of time, history, and the world itself. She can pinpoint the locations of 18 separate beings at once just by focusing, easily see through illusions or disguises, detect people's auras, see nonexistent beings, follow trails of power to track people down, or detect the energy leaking from a person's body. Perhaps most notably though, is the aforementioned feat of navigating her way to Eientei. This is something characters like Aya cannot accomplish deliberately, and her senses are good enough to hear the sound generated by entire alternate dimensions (cosmic awareness lmao), be described as completely transcending the world that Marisa perceives, feel energy that is on the verge of disappearing from existence, hear rumors on the wind, or just... generally be really good. So, Marisa's stealth > Reimu's senses > Aya's enhanced senses bordering on cosmic fvcking awareness.

-Satori has some of those good youkai senses I mentioned before, in addition to her abilities as a telepath; Even when she doesn't intend to, she's constantly reading not just the thoughts of those around her, but the leftover traces of those thoughts that remain after a person has already disappeared... Which means Marisa's stealth isn't just evading physical detection, but also completely eliminating any traces of her own thoughts.

-Yuyuko admittedly doesn't have much in the way of bullshit feats, but she can detect a corpse under a tree from meters away and immediately deduce how long it had been decaying for.

She's also disappeared from the perception of Flandre, who can detect a person's disposition. So, in conclusion, her stealth borders on straight up invisibility.

Social Influencing

Idk if this really counts as skill, but eh, fvck it. She managed to trick Tewi Inaba into eating a poisonous leaf, and Tewi is someone whose knowledge on poison is superior to that of Medicine Melancholy, someone who is quite literally made of poison, was born as a result of poison, and has mastered the use of various poisons to a degree that nobody else has. She could talk Yorihime out of killing her and a handful of others despite being tied up, or make Utsuho, someone consumed by divine madness driving her to reduce the planet to ashes, completely submissive to her.

Intstinctive Reaction

Marisa has perhaps some of the most insane showings of this I've seen before. On two separate occasions, she dueled and won against Koishi Komeiji, who does not exist. The nature of her nonexistence makes her impossible to perceive (something Marisa herself notes), as is her danmaku. All traces of her existence are erased, and even in the case someone does detect her, her attacks are completely unreadable and they forget about her in a matter of seconds. Notably, due to lacking a conscious mind, every single action Koishi takes is subconscious, meaning she has 24/7 instinctive action. This is on top of her manipulation of the subconscious, wherein she is able to make people completely unaware of her attacks, basically perceiving them as if there's no threat at all.

There is, of course, also the time she casually dodged attacks from Youmu Konpaku while sitting down and drinking (and her sake not even drop!). Youmu is a master swordswoman in her own right, but in this scenario she was also being actively amplified by Clownpiece's torch, which brings out a person's full potential. Even without that, though, she's fast enough to casually blitz Aya Shameimaru, as well as fight entire danmaku battles and win without realizing it. Aya herself can also fight entire battles without realizing, and is so fast that Sakuya needs to use her time stop to track her movement... and Sakuya is able to keep up with beings who can move faster than Marisa can track (so Youmu's combat speed >>> Aya >>> Sakuya >>> Marisa). To recap, that's three degrees of blitzing and instinctive action being dodged by someone who's casually sitting down, enjoying a nice meal, and chatting with her friends.

FWIW, she can also dodge attacks she can't perceive using her mind's eye, but that just supports what I've already said.

Scaling

Given the nature of Touhou, there are a lot of skill feats other characters have performed, and Marisa scales to a good number of them. Compared to youkai, it appears as though her dodging is like that of bits of paper floating through the air; Impressive, given youkai have the precision to roll dice in such a way that perfectly replicates the previous roll's angle, force, rotation, and result. Her danmaku is on the same level as gods like Suwako, who has lived for hundreds of years and was a noted leader in her own time. She's fought against and defeated enemies like Yuyuko, who can fight with her eyes closed, or Remilia, who is stated to be a spell card veteran and can fight her own afterimages. She's superior to fodder enemies like moon rabbits, many of whom are war veterans, and can learn how to engage in spell card duels and even beat three separate, more experienced opponents mere seconds after their first exposure to the concept. This sort of fast learning is consistent among spell card users, as characters like Byakuren could master their use mere seconds after being unsealed after centuries and born into existence, respectively. She's fought and defeated Tenshi Hinanawi, whose sword passively analyzes and adapts to the strengths and weaknesses of her opponent, and Eirin Yagokoro, who has quite literally existed for an infinite period of time.
And here's what Sora has:
Now, before I start, I'd recommend giving this a read, it really expands on what's skill and how it's considerable in fiction and whatever.

Analytical Prediction:

- Sora was capable of opening on Yozora's unusual openings (Yozora will be brought up quite often, so you'll see what I mean) compared to everyone else he fought before, and can even take selfies while weaponless while still dodging anyways (and yeah, that's kinda in-character).

Accelerated Development:

- With only a few months of adventures across the multiverse and with next to no training besides his own, Sora could already compete against properly trained formal Keyblade Masters that were far older than him. Xehanort sticks out out of being over 80 years old and having several kinds of proeficiently usable weapons and powers inherited from other characters, which Sora could totally keep up with.

- Could also quickly grasp the usage of several other forms for his Keyblade as soon as he got them, notably also including the capability to pilot a chariot and a transformation of his Keyblade to nanotech that converts to whatever weapon Sora has in mind (which includes basically most Formchanges, see below).

General Skills and Moveset:

- Has mastered the usage of several kinds of weapons while also switching between them on the fly to optimize combos, besides a sword (Keyblade), there's also a showcased considerable usage of the following by transforming it (Formchanging), which is also regarded as a more refined technique than dual wielding: Hammer, flag, yo-yos, drill, shield, claws, arrowguns, cannon, (magical) staff, skates and arm blades, nanotech and even more blades. Of note is that he can also dual wield Keyblades (as implied before), triple wield even, and has adapted to backfiring the weapon of the opponent, which has included a scythe and a claymore as well. Later on he also displays the capabiity to wield from 7 swords at once to 20, then way more I can count by doing a danmaku as he directly deflects it himself to opponents.

- In terms of mobility, besides the countless mobility options applicable to a good portion of the moves usable with the above weapons and stuff, to the point "endless" combos are possible if the opponent lacks straight up notable flight or teleportation, namely by preventing the opponent from having a chance to do much at all, Sora has also displayed the capability to perform aerial dashes, recover quickly after being sent flying (Aerial Recovery) and wall jumping (Flowmotion), let alone the capability to spam Aerial Dodge, acting as a flight enhancement that also minimizes considerably vulnerability.

- Lore-wise, Sora's only not regarded formally as a Keyblade Master out of failing the Mark of Mastery (or rather, was disqualified out of external events), even if he can still beat up "proper" Keyblade Masters like Aqua and is straight up above King Mickey, who has been one for over a decade. In any case, beings like Sora are regarded in the Age of Fairytales (which inherit his power, and are already aware of Keyblade Masters themselves) as "unimaginable forces of the future".

- Could go all on his own against an army of 1000 opponents, and displays tactical knowledge out of dividing the work between Donald and Goofy for the whole army, and has been able to keep up with multiple opponents at once, be it with their own fighting styles to synchronized duplicates of the respective character, and Sora can also make avatars of himself to overwhelm opponents as well in synchronization.

Intelligence and Information Analysis:

- Could quickly grasp the concept of programming to the point he can edit code that's changing in real time for a variety of effects, has performed multiple kinds of sports and met tens of cultures across the multiverse, in any case scans for that stuff are on the Intelligence section of the profile.

- Could surprise Master Xehanort, who was seemingly aware of the last contents of the Book of Prophecies, which foretold his victory, yet Sora could overwrite that with an outside the box usage of the Power of Waking.

- Like several other characters, Sora has the innate ability to see the remaining health of the opponent, and even has the sense to tell where the opponent is even if he's not directly seeing it.

- Can find the "real" Luxord between many duplicate cards before he runs out of time.

Instinctive Reaction:

- Could reflect omnidirectional lasers of nonexistencial nature from all directions in synchronization with Riku, later on he has also displayed the capability to do it on his own even while having to worry about unreflectable bullets and surprise attacks.

- Has shown the capability to react to attacks from behind with no prior in-universe warning and plenty of teleport-based or "instant" attacks as well, let alone while also having to worry about a nearby danmaku of lasers.

Mimicry:

- Read the Intelligence section on the page in the KHII section for more information, but basically, Sora has shown the capability to quickly replicate skills from his opponents mid-battle, from gambling to teleporting around and jumping.

- Has been stealing Roxas's fighting style out of his ability to fight quite similarly to him while in Double Form.

----

Also, fun fact, Sora has an higher intelligence rating right now than Dante, let that sink in.

Marisa: @ztarwarz, @Da3ggman
Sora:
Incon(?):
I’m probably a completely biased vote here but I helped you with some of the skill stuff in the first place so I feel like I can join in on casting a vote for Marisa cause she’s an unironic skill god to a ridiculous degree
 
Dice roll throw is something that will never fail to impress me,
and mastering an element that goes against your very nature just because you like to blow sh*t up sounds respectable.

Marisa FRA
 
Well, I better step in before a FRA train happens.

So...

Alright, let's get this started. Obviously, all stats equalized, no hax minus stuff like enhanced senses/ESP, only skill will be the determining factor here. So with that, here's Marisa's working with:

General Skill/Experience

Marisa has been fighting and exterminating youkai for decades at this point (nearly 30 games across over 25 years, including numerous manga and light novels), to the point where she's learned the smell of blood from experience on the battlefield alone. To her, a world without conflict is Hell, and she claims to be an experienced veteran.
I'm not a big fan of taking a raw timeframe as a way to determine a character's skill, past a certain point skill becomes stagnant for fighting similar stuff over and over. The rest is just self-praising/implications, which are just statements than proper skill or anything.

She regularly engages in image training (essentially playing out an entire battle in her head using mental images), winning 101 times out of 100.
And how reliable is this? It's also possible for her to just be generous on how she thinks stuff, as much you often stop your line of thought to make a better answer to what you're thinking.

Not as impressively, she can also dodge near-point blank gunshots from characters comparable in speed.
...That's clearly a warning shot, note how she didn't move in relation to the doors, that's not even aim dodging TBH.

She's highly skilled in the art of danmaku, creating highly complex bullet hell patterns on the fly, and dodging whatever everyone else throws at her. Aside from that, she's an expert in improvised weaponry, using a regular broomstick as an improvised rifle, or stringing together melee combos while simultaneously using it for flight.
Scans backing this up would be nice.

During Unconnected Marketeers, she was able to master the use of ability cards so quickly that their creator outright mentioned her brilliance in using them.
And is the creator skilled at it to begin with? If so, how much?

She possesses encyclopedic knowledge on hundreds of different of techniques, many of which she's only seen a single time (this sort of insane memory is consistent btw), detailing countless specific traits of these spell cards in the process.
That's just more intelligence than combat skill per-say, still a thing worth bringing up especially given what comes next, but a bit minor on its own.

She's also highly skilled in copying magic, being able to do so after seeing a technique once, and magicians have a tendency to experiment with such techniques to improve it beyond what its original user can do (on top of mimicry like this being implied to be the norm).
More context could be used here, for how long did she see previously it "once"? It seems rather assumptive to claim that mimicry on her part is considerably on character, the second scan doesn't appear to be talking about combat to begin with, but rather some bat-like decoration, and the third one is too vague for a claim that high.

Alongside Reimu, she can track down dangerous youkai across all of Gensokyo for days straight without any rest, or climb entire mountains that are being constantly battered by high winds without any equipment. During the events of LoLK, her canon ending involves getting a no-miss 1CC throughout the entire game (which basically just means doing a single flawless run in what is considered one of the most difficult Touhou games).
The first two are just stamina feats, and she is actually shown as tired for this stuff, so uh...

The last one is kinda valid skill-wise, a video of a run of this kind would be appreciated, however, especially as this becomes rather difficult to compare to Sora if we only have in-game difficulty as a measurement.

Her skill is so great that she has become one of the strongest known users of fire magic in Gensokyo in a short timeframe, despite her natural water affinity (something already noted to be "quite a feat"); This is specifically important because using magic that doesn't align with your elemental affinity can straight up nullify the spell you're using, which means Marisa has trained to overcome supernatural power null just by being that good at magic.
Good on paper, but this is quite unquantificable as we're going over skill behind a supernatural element, what's actually done with it in practice (Rather than the effort/achievement behind) should be the focus.

That's not to say she lacks skill in water magic; In fact, she's so good at it, that youkai whose entire existence revolves around the manipulation of water and have been controlling the waves for years consider Marisa highly skilled in water-based techniques.
...This seems to be an exaggeration, she just states her water management was impressive, she never compared it to her own and still clearly thinks to be going to win, at which point you have to question if it's really a notable skill feat to begin with to beat someone that manily just quickly sinks ships with basically no opposition, and so the timeframe becomes irrelevant as the skill here clearly just'd become stagnant fast for the same constant minor action.

She's a savant in the field of magic in general, pushing forth new theories of magic and tackling pre-existing theories, such as elemental affinities being limited to five types, and the new spells she develops surprise even youkai. Her knowledge in magical theory is great enough that centuries old youkai like Suika admit her theories are spot-on; This includes breaking down the hidden power of the oni, which is inherently impossible to even fathom, as it is powered directly by remaining unknowable.
That's just intelligence, not combat skill, and she states to not be sure on the oni stuff.

Getting a little more extreme, she can dodge weather like rain or snow, and in fact considers them easy to dodge. This is supported by how even fodder enemies like fairies train by dodging falling snowflakes, which if you didn't know, is physically impossible.
Yeah no, we don't use this kind of skill feats as they're downright nonsense, for example, Dante was argued as being capable of avoiding a void while already being inside of it, which was dismissed accordingly for the purposes of the skill list.

She's also highly adaptable, going from being dumbfounded by the illusion obscuring the true moon in Imperishable Night, before later seeing through it in her bad ending (the game takes place over the course of about 5-6 hours lol).
Not really a combat skill feat over a mere intelligence one.

In IaMP, she's noted to have terrible martial arts skills, but within the course of a couple of fights, she's mastered CQC to the extent of matching and later even surpassing Meiling, a highly skilled martial artist who trains regularly and whose skills are a rarity among youkai.
And what feats Meiling has to begin with? Reputation and capabilities don't correlate as much we don't make characters that are considered deities or whatever tier 2 or similar.

Not seeing Marisa's CQC also does no favors to say the least.

Enhanced Senses/ESP

Marisa has a lot of these so I'll just list them all lol

She can sense spatial distortions, sources of magical energy, a person's aura, the pure energy possessed by Junko, someone's power level, or the amount of "spring" they possess. She's noted to have a good nose that lets her detect the smell of blood or youkai, the smell of death itself, treasure, or track down the Occult Balls across Gensokyo in a single day, something noted to be a ridiculous feat. This includes locations that are above the clouds, or even The Palace of Earth Spirits, a place within Former Hell, which is an Otherworld and therefore a completely separate dimension that can't be accessed normally. Her eyes and nose are so sensitive that it's actually extremely easy for her senses to overwhelm her. She can see through the disguise of experienced tanuki like Mamizou, something not even Reimu can do (see below). She's also fought in dark conditions totally fine, even when afflicted with Mystia's ability to induce night blindness. Her ESP can detect the magic power being manipulated by Okina Matara, something that jizo like Narumi are unable to do despite their innate ability to detect magic power. For some ungodly reason, her ESP also lets her detect if a player has continued. It should be noted that Marisa's ESP works perfectly fine on youkai, which possess "unreadable atmospheres", which also make them nigh-impossible to adapt to by extension.
...All of that is just P&As, not combat skill, I could bring up Sora having a innate 3D radar of his surroundings and being able to sense his opponents even as they are behind him and whatever with the Scan ability.

Stealth

For starters, she's able to sneak into heavily guarded locations like Eientei, which was being guarded by a number of youkai rabbits. Youkai rabbits possess the already heightened senses of regular youkai (vision in pitch-black conditions, infrared vision, etc), on top of even sharper senses, which also includes the ability to see the souls of living beings, or possibly even the "pulse" of the moon. Not only that, but they can detect people's wavelengths, tap into the minds of those around them, and are inherently linked like a pseudo-hivemind. Marisa snuck past dozens of youkai rabbits with minimal effort.
Half of that stuff appears to have quite limited range to be a factor here, although while notable, I could bring up Sora indirectly secretly following people up close in broad daylight.

This is somehow not her most absurd feat; While speaking with Reimu on one occasion, they were interrupted by Yuyuko and Satori. When Reimu mentions Marisa, she realizes she's just... gone. So despite being in two people's direct line of sight (and a third person's peripheral vision), Marisa practically just vanished into thin air. Already absurd, but let's look at the enhanced senses she'd have to bypass to do that:

-Reimu has an inherent intuition that lets her track down people and locations innately, quite literally a 6th sense. It is superior to other forms of ESP, and she's used it to track down locations like Eientei, which exists outside of time, history, and the world itself. She can pinpoint the locations of 18 separate beings at once just by focusing, easily see through illusions or disguises, detect people's auras, see nonexistent beings, follow trails of power to track people down, or detect the energy leaking from a person's body. Perhaps most notably though, is the aforementioned feat of navigating her way to Eientei. This is something characters like Aya cannot accomplish deliberately, and her senses are good enough to hear the sound generated by entire alternate dimensions (cosmic awareness lmao), be described as completely transcending the world that Marisa perceives, feel energy that is on the verge of disappearing from existence, hear rumors on the wind, or just... generally be really good. So, Marisa's stealth > Reimu's senses > Aya's enhanced senses bordering on cosmic fvcking awareness.

-Satori has some of those good youkai senses I mentioned before, in addition to her abilities as a telepath; Even when she doesn't intend to, she's constantly reading not just the thoughts of those around her, but the leftover traces of those thoughts that remain after a person has already disappeared... Which means Marisa's stealth isn't just evading physical detection, but also completely eliminating any traces of her own thoughts.

-Yuyuko admittedly doesn't have much in the way of bullshit feats, but she can detect a corpse under a tree from meters away and immediately deduce how long it had been decaying for.

She's also disappeared from the perception of Flandre, who can detect a person's disposition. So, in conclusion, her stealth borders on straight up invisibility.
...All of this is downright hax resistances, can't be used to properly measure skill as said before.

Social Influencing

Idk if this really counts as skill, but eh, fvck it. She managed to trick Tewi Inaba into eating a poisonous leaf, and Tewi is someone whose knowledge on poison is superior to that of Medicine Melancholy, someone who is quite literally made of poison, was born as a result of poison, and has mastered the use of various poisons to a degree that nobody else has.
Besides it indeed not falling as combat skill, this isn't that good of a Social Influencing feat anyways as it's not like Tewi knows virtually everything about stuff remotely poisonous, and I'll reiterate again, that in-universe achievements in relation to the rest aren't particularly usable to measure stuff beyond vague upscaling.

She could talk Yorihime out of killing her and a handful of others despite being tied up, or make Utsuho, someone consumed by divine madness driving her to reduce the planet to ashes, completely submissive to her.
Really looks like context was a factor here for both of these, especially the latter, but again, not combat skill feats.

Intstinctive Reaction

Marisa has perhaps some of the most insane showings of this I've seen before. On two separate occasions, she dueled and won against Koishi Komeiji, who does not exist. The nature of her nonexistence makes her impossible to perceive (something Marisa herself notes), as is her danmaku. All traces of her existence are erased, and even in the case someone does detect her, her attacks are completely unreadable and they forget about her in a matter of seconds. Notably, due to lacking a conscious mind, every single action Koishi takes is subconscious, meaning she has 24/7 instinctive action. This is on top of her manipulation of the subconscious, wherein she is able to make people completely unaware of her attacks, basically perceiving them as if there's no threat at all.
And do we have any statement of all of this being counteracted with instinctive reactions or similar to begin with? Otherwise would just fall on the pile of nonsense feats that aren't usable for measuring purposes.

There is, of course, also the time she casually dodged attacks from Youmu Konpaku while sitting down and drinking (and her sake not even drop!). Youmu is a master swordswoman in her own right, but in this scenario she was also being actively amplified by Clownpiece's torch, which brings out a person's full potential. Even without that, though, she's fast enough to casually blitz Aya Shameimaru, as well as fight entire danmaku battles and win without realizing it. Aya herself can also fight entire battles without realizing, and is so fast that Sakuya needs to use her time stop to track her movement... and Sakuya is able to keep up with beings who can move faster than Marisa can track (so Youmu's combat speed >>> Aya >>> Sakuya >>> Marisa). To recap, that's three degrees of blitzing and instinctive action being dodged by someone who's casually sitting down, enjoying a nice meal, and chatting with her friends.

FWIW, she can also dodge attacks she can't perceive using her mind's eye, but that just supports what I've already said.
And Youmu is clearly clumsily swinging the sword by being drunk and even passes out from that shortly after, I don't need to explain that strength and skill don't correlate.

Eh, having a considerable stat advantage devalues the skill involved, as much characters soloing armies is rarely relevant out of most of the time such armies being fodder to them.

The last bit here is also just an ability to circumvent an issue, not really combat skill as said before on this kind of stuff.

Scaling

Given the nature of Touhou, there are a lot of skill feats other characters have performed, and Marisa scales to a good number of them. Compared to youkai, it appears as though her dodging is like that of bits of paper floating through the air; Impressive, given youkai have the precision to roll dice in such a way that perfectly replicates the previous roll's angle, force, rotation, and result. Her danmaku is on the same level as gods like Suwako, who has lived for hundreds of years and was a noted leader in her own time. She's fought against and defeated enemies like Yuyuko, who can fight with her eyes closed, or Remilia, who is stated to be a spell card veteran and can fight her own afterimages. She's superior to fodder enemies like moon rabbits, many of whom are war veterans, and can learn how to engage in spell card duels and even beat three separate, more experienced opponents mere seconds after their first exposure to the concept. This sort of fast learning is consistent among spell card users, as characters like Byakuren could master their use mere seconds after being unsealed after centuries and born into existence, respectively. She's fought and defeated Tenshi Hinanawi, whose sword passively analyzes and adapts to the strengths and weaknesses of her opponent, and Eirin Yagokoro, who has quite literally existed for an infinite period of time.
Yeah, it's clear you're trying to exaggerate feats by upscaling her to fodder, the stat gap devalues the skill involved as said before, authority and skill capability aren't related (refer to the deity analogy I said earlier), overcoming someone abusing elemental weaknesses automatically isn't much better of a skill feat without further details on how the battle went, and a timeframe past a certain point isn't too relevant to measure skill as it quickly stagnates.

Overall most of this isn't that good, and Marisa's close-up options seem rather poor with what has been provided so far, not only can Sora directly deflect danmakus, he can quickly disrupt her flight with Aero magic then follow up.
 
Alright well 99% of this is objectively wrong but before I go to work I need to point out that upscaling from fodder is completely fine, as Marisa typically fights under spell card rules, which make stats a non-factor.


Spell card duels are, first and foremost, contests of skill over raw power.
 
Well, I better step in before a FRA train happens.

So...


I'm not a big fan of taking a raw timeframe as a way to determine a character's skill, past a certain point skill becomes stagnant for fighting similar stuff over and over. The rest is just self-praising/implications, which are just statements than proper skill or anything.


And how reliable is this? It's also possible for her to just be generous on how she thinks stuff, as much you often stop your line of thought to make a better answer to what you're thinking.


...That's clearly a warning shot, note how she didn't move in relation to the doors, that's not even aim dodging TBH.


Scans backing this up would be nice.


And is the creator skilled at it to begin with? If so, how much?


That's just more intelligence than combat skill per-say, still a thing worth bringing up especially given what comes next, but a bit minor on its own.


More context could be used here, for how long did she see previously it "once"? It seems rather assumptive to claim that mimicry on her part is considerably on character, the second scan doesn't appear to be talking about combat to begin with, but rather some bat-like decoration, and the third one is too vague for a claim that high.


The first two are just stamina feats, and she is actually shown as tired for this stuff, so uh...

The last one is kinda valid skill-wise, a video of a run of this kind would be appreciated, however, especially as this becomes rather difficult to compare to Sora if we only have in-game difficulty as a measurement.


Good on paper, but this is quite unquantificable as we're going over skill behind a supernatural element, what's actually done with it in practice (Rather than the effort/achievement behind) should be the focus.


...This seems to be an exaggeration, she just states her water management was impressive, she never compared it to her own and still clearly thinks to be going to win, at which point you have to question if it's really a notable skill feat to begin with to beat someone that manily just quickly sinks ships with basically no opposition, and so the timeframe becomes irrelevant as the skill here clearly just'd become stagnant fast for the same constant minor action.


That's just intelligence, not combat skill, and she states to not be sure on the oni stuff.


Yeah no, we don't use this kind of skill feats as they're downright nonsense, for example, Dante was argued as being capable of avoiding a void while already being inside of it, which was dismissed accordingly for the purposes of the skill list.


Not really a combat skill feat over a mere intelligence one.


And what feats Meiling has to begin with? Reputation and capabilities don't correlate as much we don't make characters that are considered deities or whatever tier 2 or similar.

Not seeing Marisa's CQC also does no favors to say the least.


...All of that is just P&As, not combat skill, I could bring up Sora having a innate 3D radar of his surroundings and being able to sense his opponents even as they are behind him and whatever with the Scan ability.


Half of that stuff appears to have quite limited range to be a factor here, although while notable, I could bring up Sora indirectly secretly following people up close in broad daylight.


...All of this is downright hax resistances, can't be used to properly measure skill as said before.


Besides it indeed not falling as combat skill, this isn't that good of a Social Influencing feat anyways as it's not like Tewi knows virtually everything about stuff remotely poisonous, and I'll reiterate again, that in-universe achievements in relation to the rest aren't particularly usable to measure stuff beyond vague upscaling.


Really looks like context was a factor here for both of these, especially the latter, but again, not combat skill feats.


And do we have any statement of all of this being counteracted with instinctive reactions or similar to begin with? Otherwise would just fall on the pile of nonsense feats that aren't usable for measuring purposes.


And Youmu is clearly clumsily swinging the sword by being drunk and even passes out from that shortly after, I don't need to explain that strength and skill don't correlate.

Eh, having a considerable stat advantage devalues the skill involved, as much characters soloing armies is rarely relevant out of most of the time such armies being fodder to them.

The last bit here is also just an ability to circumvent an issue, not really combat skill as said before on this kind of stuff.


Yeah, it's clear you're trying to exaggerate feats by upscaling her to fodder, the stat gap devalues the skill involved as said before, authority and skill capability aren't related (refer to the deity analogy I said earlier), overcoming someone abusing elemental weaknesses automatically isn't much better of a skill feat without further details on how the battle went, and a timeframe past a certain point isn't too relevant to measure skill as it quickly stagnates.

Overall most of this isn't that good, and Marisa's close-up options seem rather poor with what has been provided so far, not only can Sora directly deflect danmakus, he can quickly disrupt her flight with Aero magic then follow up.
joke-vs-sweet-tooth-death-battle.gif


Bro debunked every single feat 💀. Anyway, voting Sora for Bobsican's reasons.
 
Definitely not Marissa after Bobsican debunked the hell out of her, but an argument could be made for Goku vs Sora. Batman while he's sleeping probably outskills all of them combined, though.
"Debunked" man said Marisa outstats someone I made a whole scaling chain for explaining how they blitz her 🗿
 
Definitely not Marissa after Bobsican debunked the hell out of her, but an argument could be made for Goku vs Sora. Batman while he's sleeping probably outskills all of them combined, though.
Batgos stays undefeated.

Is there an anime character more skilled than Batman?

And I'm referring to Batman with the batarangs and grappling hook equipped with his spikes and control of the battlefield, a complete Final batsuit, with the son box implanted in his chest so he can perform batblasts and batmartial arts as well as being extremely skilled in every single martial art that exists.

Anyway, right now I am voting for Sora. OP should update the votes. I wonder how this will go?
 
"Debunked" man said Marisa outstats someone I made a whole scaling chain for explaining how they blitz her 🗿
Oh, I misunderstood that bit then (I thought it was the other way around, this is what I get for debunking late at night...).
Uh... note how that one danmaku is also described as just randomly scattering bullets around with overall no strategy, gotta consider that as well as it devalues the skill involved, although it's still decent.

Batgos stays undefeated.

Is there an anime character more skilled than Batman?

And I'm referring to Batman with the batarangs and grappling hook equipped with his spikes and control of the battlefield, a complete Final batsuit, with the son box implanted in his chest so he can perform batblasts and batmartial arts as well as being extremely skilled in every single martial art that exists.
TBH Batman is a bit overrated, especially when chances are some feats are outliers given DC's track record.
 
Oh, I misunderstood that bit then (I thought it was the other way around, this is what I get for debunking late at night...).
Uh... note how that one danmaku is also described as just randomly scattering bullets around with overall no strategy, gotta consider that as well as it devalues the skill involved, although it's still decent.
...That's not even what I'm using to measure skill though, it's just to show that Aya >>> Sakuya in speed.
 
Literally how

Aya's danmaku has 0 relevance here. The only issue is Marisa instinctively dodging attacks from someone who can blitz Aya. At no point in this specific scaling chain was danmaku mentioned.
Actually, looking back, it seems I read the scaling chain backwards.

Marisa is below all those other characters in the scaling you mentioned, yet are trying to claim she's skilled by dodging the highest one while clearly clumsily drunk, which is uh... no.

Also, try reading literally any other comment on the page that isn't Reimu's. Marisa herself mentions the skill involved in making the Danmaku fall straight despite the speeds Aya's flying at.
The skill behind something and the skill behind doing a danmaku, another thing is the skill for the danmaku itself, as said before the focus should be on what's done with the power itself, rather than the effort behind it for skill measuring purposes.
 
Marisa is below all those other characters in the scaling you mentioned, yet are trying to claim she's skilled by dodging the highest one while clearly clumsily drunk, which is uh... no.
Man's really looking at a blatant feat, and a scaling chain backed up by multiple games and character statements, and follows it up by saying, "Nuh uh."

Anyway, in terms of sheer skill, Marisa learning fire magic, going by the rules of her own verse, is technically more impressive than anything Sora has done by virtue of it being a skill feat that shouldn't even be possible. She made the impossible possible through sheer dedication to her craft.

Also going from being not a Melee fighter to beating Meiling is impressive since Meiling is an expert h2h fighter who is probably decently old given how long the SDM has been around

Admittedly the last part is an assumption, but I'm going for Marisa here.
 
Man's really looking at a blatant feat, and a scaling chain backed up by multiple games and character statements, and follows it up by saying, "Nuh uh."
I mean, the whole way Marisa upscales from all of that not only is inviting a scaling loop, it's also clearly not skill as much merely clumsily swinging a sword while drunk is very different from being serious and in proper condition.

Anyway, in terms of sheer skill, Marisa learning fire magic, going by the rules of her own verse, is technically more impressive than anything Sora has done by virtue of it being a skill feat that shouldn't even be possible. She made the impossible possible through sheer dedication to her craft.
Which again, isn't quantificable for skill purposes, what she actually does with such fire magic should be the focus, rather than focusing on the effort behind it.

Also going from being not a Melee fighter to beating Meiling is impressive since Meiling is an expert h2h fighter who is probably decently old given how long the SDM has been around
SDM?

Admittedly the last part is an assumption, but I'm going for Marisa here.
Sus reasoning as a whole, and not a FRA either, so I'm not sure if this is valid...
 
Can y'all try to wait until I post my response lol

Anyways, Marisa outright says Aya's thing takes skill so idk what you're even talking about.
 
I'm talking about this

If someone in a verse says that is very hard to manipulate fire to make it take the shape of a dragon, and it shows prodigious skill of the pyromancer by being able to do so, it shows that he is skilled in the verse's pyromancy logic, not that his actual usage of powers is good. Now, using a simple fireball to heat up several immense spikes impaled over a block, so they heat up and expand, thus cracking the block, and thus making the pieces fall down on the opponent? That is a good display of tactical and combat skill.

i'd also remind this is a vs thread, the effort required would actually just limit Marisa's capability if anything.
 
Scarlet Devil Manor. Aside from Sakuya who's heavily implied to be affecting her own aging, everyone there is a Youkai, with Rem and Flandre being hundreds of years old.
Sus reasoning as a whole, and not a FRA either, so I'm not sure if this is valid...
I can also add that Marisa is able to understand danmaku patterns and how the spellcards work well enough to put them in her grimoire, after seeing them once.

Or that every ability card in UM is based on powers that are specific and unique to individual characters, and yet she wields these powers with extreme proficiency shortly after obtaining the cards when the incident began, which would be like 45+ ability cards. I'd like my vote to be counted, personally.

Anyway, Mokou should be able to give a proper response to her own points (and probably add to mine) eventually, so I won't keep adding things that may be redudant.
 
Scarlet Devil Manor. Aside from Sakuya who's heavily implied to be affecting her own aging, everyone there is a Youkai, with Rem and Flandre being hundreds of years old.
Again, age and skill capability don't properly correlate, the skill just quickly stagnates past a certain point, most Touhou characters only deal with danmaku as far Im understanding from the brought up arguments, while Sora has dealt with far more than that...

I can also add that Marisa is able to understand danmaku patterns and how the spellcards work well enough to put them in her grimoire, after seeing them once.
Understanding danmaku patterns is valid, but for the other part...

Or that every ability card in UM is based on powers that are specific and unique to individual characters, and yet she wields these powers with extreme proficiency shortly after obtaining the cards when the incident began, which would be like 45+ ability cards. I'd like my vote to be counted, personally.
Eh, that's just gaining a ticket to use a power, rather than actually manually learning it and stuff, I could bring up characters doing the same thing to Sora yet still being deemed lower in skill.

Anyway, Mokou should be able to give a proper response to her own points (and probably add to mine) eventually, so I won't keep adding things that may be redudant.
Okay, I suppose, let's wait.
 
Eh, having a considerable stat advantage devalues the skill involved, as much characters soloing armies is rarely relevant out of most of the time such armies being fodder to them.

Yeah, it's clear you're trying to exaggerate feats by upscaling her to fodder, the stat gap devalues the skill involved as said before, authority and skill capability aren't related (refer to the deity analogy I said earlier), overcoming someone abusing elemental weaknesses automatically isn't much better of a skill feat without further details on how the battle went, and a timeframe past a certain point isn't too relevant to measure skill as it quickly stagnates.
Let me start with the biggest fault here. Everything I scale Marisa to falls under the spell card rules. The spell card rules are in-universe guidelines intended to equalize duels between humans and youkai, effectively acting as AP equalization; Being stronger than your opponent is a complete non-factor in such fights. In fact, they are outright referred to as contests of skill, something Marisa herself also states. So this has 0 basis, and skill scaling via spell card duels is perfectly fine because the series outright states they are comparisons of skill above all else. Also... one of your big skill feats for Sora is him beating an army of 1000 fodder enemies so uh. Did you take that into consideration when writing this?

As for the "elemental weaknesses" thing, I assume you're referring to Tenshi? The problem with your assertion is that we do know how the fight went; Marisa fvcking wins, and I wouldn't have mentioned it if she didn't.

...All of that is just P&As, not combat skill, I could bring up Sora having a innate 3D radar of his surroundings and being able to sense his opponents even as they are behind him and whatever with the Scan ability.
Another major issue. The most skilled thread outright mentioned that good senses and battlefield awareness are an important factor, as does the skill blog you keep bringing into this. You can't arbitrarily exclude it; Marisa takes this category in spades, even with the 3D radar thing, given Marisa has more or less the same kinds of senses, as well as senses that can span for miles or even interdimensional distances (on top of more variety, like feeling auras, power levels, magic energy, and so on).
"Of course, these are simply the main things to consider when talking of a character's skill. In terms of skill, one must consider things such as Analytical Prediction, Enhanced Senses, Accelerated Development, Acrobatics, etc. But ultimately, one's skill can be measured by evaluating their Experience in combat, their Precision, otherwise known as their ability for micro-control/ability to control and hit targets, and adaptability, which can be summarized as their ability to adapt their skills to new and foreign situations. The Adaptability category should not be mentioned when referring to one's strength development, and should focus strictly on the development of one's technique."

"Not only those instincts cover the reflex and thoughtless reactions, it is also essential to be aware of your surroundings even if unconsciously. Think of it as having trained your five senses, touch, sight and hearing in particular, as to not invalidate the smallest of impulses received. I've seen in both the Bujinkan dojo I trained at and in boxing that, at the higher level (Experienced green belts and black belts on the former, my coach in the latter), it is normal to train awareness by reacting to stuff while blindfolded, without warning. Of course, it isn't like in fiction, where a character perfectly dodges something with no indication at all of what was about to happen. Rather, there were many ways to train that, but usually by either slowly building a rhythm of increasingly faster things to react to, or the person reacted in situations with increasingly more disturbances to the training. (Initially training while no one could move or make a sound, and then increasing it)"


Half of that stuff appears to have quite limited range to be a factor here, although while notable, I could bring up Sora indirectly secretly following people up close in broad daylight.

...All of this is downright hax resistances, can't be used to properly measure skill as said before.
Actually, it isn't her erasing her presence or anything haxxy like that; It's actually completely impossible for someone in Touhou to not leave a trace of their existence so long as they have a soul (and before you ask, Koishi doesn't count since she doesn't have a soul). Also, I have no idea what you mean by limited range - Reimu's intuition at bare minimum is able to work on incidents across Gensokyo, which is at least a few kilometers large. It's also tracked down people in Heaven, which is one of those extradimensional Otherworlds I mentioned before, so range definitely isn't an issue (and just so we're clear, when she mentions going above the clouds, it is in fact referring to Heaven).

Tbh that stealth feat is like. Baby's First Stealth Mechanic. It's a guy with 0 enhanced senses feats and a blindspot the size of a small car, this is well within the range of what a regular human could do.

I'm not a big fan of taking a raw timeframe as a way to determine a character's skill, past a certain point skill becomes stagnant for fighting similar stuff over and over. The rest is just self-praising/implications, which are just statements than proper skill or anything.
Marisa absolutely does not fight the same stuff over and over again; Like, Marisa has actively fought against and beaten time stop spammers, people who constantly strategize over which elements to use to counter their enemies (which, in addition to the power null I already covered, are stated to decide fights before they even begin), people who constantly warp your senses and materialize your hallucinations into reality, and basically 99% of the characters on this list. The sheer variety of abilities and their uses in Touhou outdoes all of KH and then some, and Marisa's protagonist role means she's seen all of it and more (you could also just read Grimoire of Marisa, which has a lot of examples of her describing how she researches and counteracts some of these techniques). Just because all of this is fought through the lens of danmaku doesn't mean it's any less impressive.

Also, the timeframe for her development is a huge deal. There is no way in hell you're claiming that learning a skill in months or years is anywhere near as impressive as learning it in days or hours.

And how reliable is this? It's also possible for her to just be generous on how she thinks stuff, as much you often stop your line of thought to make a better answer to what you're thinking.
It's literally her win quote after she beats herself in a mirror match, you quite literally see the entire battle play out before you. You can't just see a thing happen, see a character say "that thing did in fact just happen", and then go "well it doesn't sound reliable".

...That's clearly a warning shot, note how she didn't move in relation to the doors, that's not even aim dodging TBH.
Marisa is clearly facing the door directly at first but is facing it from an angle in the second page; It seems quite clear to me that she swerved away, but I'd rather not get caught up on a smaller feat like this.

Scans backing this up would be nice.
Yeah, sure. Here's a combo video demonstrating some of what I'm talking about, a wiki page demonstrating all of her attacks, and some descriptions on the improvised rifle stuff. The creating new spell cards on the fly thing is a byproduct of both how creating spell card works (it is literally just giving a technique a name) and scaling above characters who can master danmaku in seconds. As for dodging... It's Touhou man, you don't need scans for this. It's like asking for scans of Mario jumping or Sonic running.

And is the creator skilled at it to begin with? If so, how much?
That's not how this works, what. If you create something from scratch, and someone masters the use of it in a matter of hours, it's an impressive feat regardless.

That's just more intelligence than combat skill per-say, still a thing worth bringing up especially given what comes next, but a bit minor on its own.
Yeah no, Marisa has seen the majority of these techniques once and innately knows their inner mechanics, what hax they possess (even when she isn't affected by them), the difficulty involved in copying them, what they represent, and they type of danmaku they fall under. Against anyone in combat, this level of near-instant analysis is insanely important - Knowing exactly what an attack is capable of, whether or not she can mimic it, and how the ability works mechanically is an excellent form of analysis (one I haven't seen Sora replicate lol).

More context could be used here, for how long did she see previously it "once"? It seems rather assumptive to claim that mimicry on her part is considerably on character, the second scan doesn't appear to be talking about combat to begin with, but rather some bat-like decoration, and the third one is too vague for a claim that high.
...Your english seems a bit broken here, but she sees it as a part of Patchouli's non-spell attacks in EoSD once, and by IN she has not only learned how to use it as a spell card, but also develop several variations of it. Your other contentions don't make any sense; The second scan is clearly about copying magic, which is a skill feat. The third scan merely supports what's already been shown and stated.

The last one is kinda valid skill-wise, a video of a run of this kind would be appreciated, however, especially as this becomes rather difficult to compare to Sora if we only have in-game difficulty as a measurement.
Here you go.

Good on paper, but this is quite unquantificable as we're going over skill behind a supernatural element, what's actually done with it in practice (Rather than the effort/achievement behind) should be the focus.
Absolutely not lol, it's a clear showcase of her adaptability; Even when fighting at a clear disadvantage, she can match and surpass people working without said disadvantage. Think of it this way: If a man with one arm attempts to duel wield, and not only successfully does so, but surpasses duel wielding masters who have two arms, is that not an impressive display of skill?

Also you keep bringing up this blog, but what it ever accepted as an official ruling on what constitutes skill?

That's just intelligence, not combat skill, and she states to not be sure on the oni stuff.
Marisa's combat style is all about magic - It's only natural that her extensive knowledge on what types of magic exist and how they work translates to her combat knowledge as well, because that's just how she fights. Replace "magic" with "swordfighting" and I'm sure you'd have no complaints about this being a skill feat, so since the former is Marisa's main combat style, it has no reason to be discarded.

Also, regarding the oni stuff, her lack of sureness isn't a factor - Not only is the oni magic item she analyzed a fake, but Suika (an actual oni) still says her analysis of it was spot on. Which, now that I think about it, is even more impressive. I also wanna note that one of your main points for Sora is him being good at coding and good at sports, so try to maintain some semblance of consistency.

Yeah no, we don't use this kind of skill feats as they're downright nonsense, for example, Dante was argued as being capable of avoiding a void while already being inside of it, which was dismissed accordingly for the purposes of the skill list.
Dodging rain
Dodging a living omnipresent void while inside said void
You can't possibly mean to tell me these are even remotely comparable.

Not really a combat skill feat over a mere intelligence one.
It is objectively accelerated development, which is a skill. If she can adapt to hax in short periods of time, that bears mentioning. Also, how would it even translate to intelligence? Just being smart won't make you see through illusions.

And what feats Meiling has to begin with? Reputation and capabilities don't correlate as much we don't make characters that are considered deities or whatever tier 2 or similar.
Meiling is repeatedly stated to be a master in martial arts, possessing a well-rounded fighting style with no blind spots and no exploitable weaknesses.

And do we have any statement of all of this being counteracted with instinctive reactions or similar to begin with? Otherwise would just fall on the pile of nonsense feats that aren't usable for measuring purposes.
Bro what

You don't need statements when the context of the feat makes the conclusion obvious - Can you give me an example of one way to win an extended battle against an opponent you don't realize you're fighting without mentioning instinctive reaction? It's the only ability that fits, and your insistence that a statement is required is not only absurd, but hypocritical; Neither IR feat you gave for Sora mentions him doing anything instinctively, and in the first scan, he actually seems fully aware of his surroundings.

And Youmu is clearly clumsily swinging the sword by being drunk and even passes out from that shortly after, I don't need to explain that strength and skill don't correlate.

The last bit here is also just an ability to circumvent an issue, not really combat skill as said before on this kind of stuff.
Youmu isn't actually drunk, she was just driven to madness by Clownpiece's torch. Everyone's just joking about Youmu being drunk because they don't realize she's legitimately trying to kill them. Also like... It's still dodging attacks from a character that is leagues faster than you while sitting down and drinking, and it's not like Clownpiece's torch makes people slower or less skilled. Try dodging machine gun fire while having a picnic and then get back to me on how unimpressive this feat is.

"Just an ability to circumvent an issue" yeah, the issue is not being able to perceive attacks, and the ability is instinctive reaction you baka.

TL;DR: Your points are not only lacking context, but are also deeply hypocritical; If Marisa isn't skilled by this logic, then neither is Sora, so either way you're taking the L.

Overall most of this isn't that good, and Marisa's close-up options seem rather poor with what has been provided so far, not only can Sora directly deflect danmakus, he can quickly disrupt her flight with Aero magic then follow up.
Sora has never dealt with Touhou level danmaku, and Marisa can just... dodge. Sora's precision is absolutely pathetic compared to what Marisa has to deal with every single day, like the borderline probability hax-level precision from youkai, or hundreds of knives each with enough accuracy to pierce an apple on someone's head from 100 feet away. Her adaptability means that if Sora doesn't take her down in like a minute at most, she'll already have enough knowledge to copy a decent chunk of his arsenal and fighting style, as well as see through all of his weak spots - At that point, Sora has virtually no way to keep up with her better AD, higher stamina, and overwhelming danmaku, and it's only a matter of time until he's cooked.

Since I didn't mention it before, Marisa is completely unimpeded by having her hearing and color vision stripped from her mid-combat.
 
- Sora was capable of opening on Yozora's unusual openings (Yozora will be brought up quite often, so you'll see what I mean) compared to everyone else he fought before, and can even take selfies while weaponless while still dodging anyways (and yeah, that's kinda in-character).

That's not even what's happening; There are very clear gaps between Yozora's attacks, and Sora is taking the pictures then and then dodging immediately after; Saying he's taking selfies while dodging misrepresents the feat. It takes 3 whole seconds for his first attack to land where Sora is, which is more than enough time to press a button on your phone.


- With only a few months of adventures across the multiverse and with next to no training besides his own, Sora could already compete against properly trained formal Keyblade Masters that were far older than him. Xehanort sticks out out of being over 80 years old and having several kinds of proeficiently usable weapons and powers inherited from other characters, which Sora could totally keep up with.

- Could also quickly grasp the usage of several other forms for his Keyblade as soon as he got them, notably also including the capability to pilot a chariot and a transformation of his Keyblade to nanotech that converts to whatever weapon Sora has in mind (which includes basically most Formchanges, see below).


First part is fine, albeit still slower than Marisa's AD. The second part is weird though - Can you show me scans of this? As far as my KH knowledge goes, most Keyblades maintain roughly the same shape across their different forms, so idk if "can master the use of a sword that's very similar to the sword he already has" is notable at all. The chariot thing isn't even relevant lol

- Has mastered the usage of several kinds of weapons while also switching between them on the fly to optimize combos, besides a sword (Keyblade), there's also a showcased considerable usage of the following by transforming it (Formchanging), which is also regarded as a more refined technique than dual wielding: Hammer, flag, yo-yos, drill, shield, claws, arrowguns, cannon, (magical) staff, skates and arm blades, nanotech and even more blades. Of note is that he can also dual wield Keyblades (as implied before), triple wield even, and has adapted to backfiring the weapon of the opponent, which has included a scythe and a claymore as well. Later on he also displays the capabiity to wield from 7 swords at once to 20, then way more I can count by doing a danmaku as he directly deflects it himself to opponents.

First part is all good, what with the Formchanging and duel wielding. Triple wielding is where I have an issue; Sora isn't actually wielding these weapons as much as they are just... flying around doing sword shit. That's more like weapon control, which isn't skill based in the slightest. The sword danmaku isn't "wielding multiple weapons at once" either; It's just deflecting physical objects to make an AOE attack; Which does beg the question of if he's actually accurately hitting people with these swords or if he's just firing at will and hoping for the best. Finally, disarming an opponent after they leave themselves wide open for several seconds isn't all that impressive (the second example is even worse, as it's just Sora catching a weapon that's literally being thrown towards him).

- In terms of mobility, besides the countless mobility options applicable to a good portion of the moves usable with the above weapons and stuff, to the point "endless" combos are possible if the opponent lacks straight up notable flight or teleportation, namely by preventing the opponent from having a chance to do much at all, Sora has also displayed the capability to perform aerial dashes, recover quickly after being sent flying (Aerial Recovery) and wall jumping (Flowmotion), let alone the capability to spam Aerial Dodge, acting as a flight enhancement that also minimizes considerably vulnerability.

First and most importantly, are endless combos even canon? Like, I can't possibly imagine making the Ice Climbers skill gods because of wobbling. That aside... all of these moves are pretty typical stuff, a lot of which Marisa can do too (mainly the airdashes and quick recovery, both of which she does in the fighting games), wall jumping is a bog standard platformer move, and I'm not even really sure what I'm looking at with the aerial dodge move or how it relates to skill.

- Could go all on his own against an army of 1000 opponents, and displays tactical knowledge out of dividing the work between Donald and Goofy for the whole army, and has been able to keep up with multiple opponents at once, be it with their own fighting styles to synchronized duplicates of the respective character, and Sora can also make avatars of himself to overwhelm opponents as well in synchronization.

By your own admission, the first thing isn't a skill feat, and I'm willing to bet that Sora is vastly superior to a bunch of Heartless - the fodder enemies of KH, to my understanding - to the point where logically he could just blow them all up in one go. Fighting multiple identical clones of a character is technically impressive, but given the Heartless thing, I have to ask if those characters are comparable enough to Sora to pose a threat to begin with - Not to mention, Marisa has no issue fighting off duplicates. Twice. Three times, even.

Sora making duplicates of himself isn't skill. It's duplication. C'mon now. Also, they don't even seem to fight in tandem with him? It looks like they're just motionless until shooting a few projectiles before vanishing.

- Could quickly grasp the concept of programming to the point he can edit code that's changing in real time for a variety of effects, has performed multiple kinds of sports and met tens of cultures across the multiverse, in any case scans for that stuff are on the Intelligence section of the profile.

None of this translates to combat skill. The culture thing is especially funny to me.

- Like several other characters, Sora has the innate ability to see the remaining health of the opponent, and even has the sense to tell where the opponent is even if he's not directly seeing it.

This falls flat compared to what Marisa can do, so while this is valid it's still not notable here.

- Can find the "real" Luxord between many duplicate cards before he runs out of time.

The card literally flips around to show Luxord on it. Surely you jest.
image.png

"Can you find the king of spades out of all of these cards?" "Well it's probably the one that has a king and a spade symbol on it" "My god, what incredible skill!!!!"

- Could reflect omnidirectional lasers of nonexistencial nature from all directions in synchronization with Riku, later on he has also displayed the capability to do it on his own even while having to worry about unreflectable bullets and surprise attacks.

Now we're talking. By far the best feat here... but there are some glaring problems. First of all, Sora literally sees Xemnas do some flashy magic shit before the attack starts and readies his weapon. That is hard proof against this feat having anything to do with IR. Secondly, how are the lasers being nonexistent relevant, and are there scans that prove this?

- Has shown the capability to react to attacks from behind with no prior in-universe warning and plenty of teleport-based or "instant" attacks as well, let alone while also having to worry about a nearby danmaku of lasers.

For starters, Yozora actually has a few frames of animation where he "fades in" after teleporting, so it doesn't lack warning or anything. Even so, while this is technically really good spatial awareness and reactions for Sora.... Marisa has fought and beaten teleportation spammers before, even those whose teleportation happens purely on instinct.

- Read the Intelligence section on the page in the KHII section for more information, but basically, Sora has shown the capability to quickly replicate skills from his opponents mid-battle, from gambling to teleporting around and jumping.

The gambling thing isn't copying any technique, nor is it even gambling - It's just a test of "press the button at the right time", which really isn't that hard. Copying teleportation is much more notable... but according to Sora's keys, he actually knew how to teleport prior to KH2, so it's not learning a new ability. And you've gotta be high on something to tell me that jumping mid-combat is a notable skill feat.

So in conclusion, I only see like 4 notable feats here:
-Can become a master Keyblade wielder in a short time.
-Can duel wield and switch weapons on the fly.
-Can reflect dozens of bullets simultaneously.
-Can react to people who spam teleportation.

...Yeah this is a hard Marisa stomp, good lord.
 
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