One Piece Speed Downgrade.... Continued...

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Ok well to start things off this thread is simply a continuation of this thread. I was thinking of not bringing it up (well I was lazy) but certain things are forcing me to do this.

So lets start things off now shall we...this is the calc which puts Pre-Timeskip OP characters at Mach 441+ or MHS. Now before we even officially begin I'd like to point out that this calc is very inconsistent with the new world calc which puts post timeskip High and Top Tier characters at mach 637.

So lets begin.




This is the scan where Kalifa reacts to lightning by materializing a soap wall around her self to fend off against the lightning which somehow gave her mach 441 reactions (Still don't know how they even got mach 441 for it as minimun lightning speed is much lower).

But




In this scan Kalifa falis to react to Thunder Ball Tempo which if I remember correctly didn't even move at 1m/s in the Alabasta arc. But lets just say they were moving at 50m/s simply for this (and I still doubt it as they were very slow). Now that would mean that Kalifa failed to react to something which is 2945 times slower than what she was previously capable of reacting at. Yeah this should make it an out liner but wait there's more.




Here is where Nami forms the next Thunder cloud. And what does Kalifa do she simply turns around and stares at the the thunder cloud..... like an idiot. By now should've known what it should do as she had already seen Nami create thuder clouds.

And here




She gets hit by lightning and was incapable of reacting to it in the slightest.

So simply put the Pre-Timeskip One piece speeds need to be downgraded to either Hypersonic or Hypersonic+ as Kaifa dodging lightning is an outlier.

You can decide on where to put their speeds at....

 

[Antvasima]

We need somebody to check up what the speed of lightning really amounts to, and then place it on the speed page as a reference. Because when I checked the Wikipedia page, it said that: "Researchers at the University of Florida found that the final one-dimensional speeds of 10 flashes observed were between 1.0×10^5 and 1.4×10^6 m/s, with an average of 4.4×10^5 m/s" The average speed is much higher than the one that we generally tend to use.

Regardless, from what I skimmed of the old thread, Kalifa dodging the lightning was considered an outlier, due to being repeatedly unable to dodge it and slower attacks. On the other hand, Davy0 mentioned that Luffy pre timeskip Luffy dodged a liquid explosion with ease, which also rates as MHS.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Ok Davy0 didn't really specify if it was Pre-Timeskip or Post-Timeskip and when did it actually happen cuz I don't remember it...

 

[Antvasima]

I don't either.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Alright I looked it up and found the feat...

Here ceaser causes his slimes to gather around and cause the liquid explosio and here luffy dodged the liquid explosion and attacks ceaser...

So considering that this feat happened in Post-Timeskip can I edit the Pre-Timeskip Speed stats now...

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Also a lot of other OP stats are also wrong... such as this calc which apprently made Zoro Hypersonic+ even though the calc only resulted in mach 9...

 

[Antvasima]

All right.

 

[Rib78]

I think there are a lot of characters all over the wiki that are listed with pluses they haven't earned on their speeds. People don't seem to realise that speeds with and without the pluses are different categories.

 

[Antvasima]

True. Or they put pluses where the is no plus category for destructive capacity and durability.

 

[Davy0]

That's what I told Uncle, the Plus has a meaning, it stands for just barely being said speed, or having said speed and "playing" with it effortlessly. Same for destructive power, a casual feat versus something that takes one's strongest technique.

 

[Davy0]

Also a lot of other OP stats are also wrong... such as this calc which apprently made Zoro Hypersonic+ even though the calc only resulted in mach 9...

Hold up hold up hold up. Didn't Enel's arc happen just before the Water 7 Arc... Why can't they have those feats?

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Because every single person accepts them reacting to Enel's lightning as PIS partly due to it being illogical and also due to the fact that people stronger as in Kalifa's case are incapable of reacting to slower attacks ...

 

[Polar-kun]

It is not an actual cloud-to-ground lightning iirc, just a created indoor lighting. And the evidence of Kalifa dodging is not very clear.

 

[Davy0]

It was a cloud... stimulated with static electricity... on a smaller scale... It was still cloud to ground lightning, she just did it within a building because of her clima-tact, that's not a good reason to not treat it as electricity.

Every person doesn't accept that. If she uses bubble armor to block it, it's still reacting to lightning.

Next, Enel's Arc happens right before the Water 7 Arc. Unless we're about to try and say Luffy got his reactions from the Davy Back Fight, which is a load of you know what.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Ok this discussion has already been concluded with it being an outlier. And please just read the thread properly before commenting.

Kalifa reacted to cloud to ground lightning once and later on failed to react to a much slower attack and lighting this is the whole reason why it was accepted as an ourtlier...

And where the hell did that come from...

 

[Quincy_King]

^Chill Dude, no need for cursing...

 

[Davy0]

OK. Unless Luffy got these MHS reactions in between the Eneru Arc and the Water 7 Arc, what had changed about his abilities as far as the fight with Aokiji. The only thing that came from such a fight was his Gear Techniques as stated by himself during his battle with Blueno. He wasn't in constant fighting, and characters have a habit of improving after each major fight in One Piece. Davy Back Fight was a big fight, but it wasn't on par with the scuffle against Eneru, nor did Luffy particularly learn anything new from it as his character had the hax, but not the skill to best him. However, they meet Rob Lucci, Nami still has her Clima-tact and there were no major fights between Eneru versus CP9's Water 7 Arc that could have boosted their stats so greatly.

So once again I ask, what keeps them from having those reactions, considering they proved themselves above Kalifa, with Sanji only losing because of his vow to never harm a female

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Hmmmm lets see how about the fact that you can't just deflect lightning. And all the straw hats got stomped by the CP9 on their first encounter and later on they got unexplained powerups such as Luffy's gears, Zoro's Ashura, Sanji's Diablo Jumble.

Yeah Kalifa's lightning reaction being an outlier prevents from having MHs reactions in Pre-timeskip as that was the only thing which had a very slight possibility of being accepted...

Simple fact of the matter is no one in pre-timeskip besides the High and Top Tier have MHS speeds in anything. Finally I'm done here. The changes have already been accepted and been done....

 

[Rib78]

Why is it even considered an outlier in the first place? Outliers are considered as such because they implicity contradict the rest of the work. I don't really see the contradiction in get in hit by an attack you blocked earlier in a fight; that happens everywhere: in fact, it's to be expected in a fight.

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Now I'm getting pissed.

Simply put.

At first Kalifa reacted to lightning which would've given her lightning speed reactions but later on she was incapable of reacting to a much much slower attack and lightning. THIS is why it's an outlier...

 

[Darkness552]

please continue this discussion peacefully

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

First of all this discussion has already been concluded twice. I was just too lazy to apply the changes.

Second: I gave all the reasons (well most of them) as to why the feat was an outlier people simply didn't listen which didn't make me happy.

It's better to lock this thread instead as the admins have already accepted the changes twice and this isn't an on going discussion...

 

[Davy0]

Nah it's not concluded, this is just getting started, I will fight for those feats as long as I need to. After re-working it in my head, nothing contradicts itself. She blocks it with her bubble powers as they have enough defensive ability to block the lightning, and she reacted to the lightning that time. She dodged the lightning the other time. There's nothing wrong with it. You can't just "deflect" lightning? Are you serious? This is fiction! They can do whatever they damn well, please. If Oda wished to make them country busters just for the hell of it on the next issue, he could (I wouldn't like One Piece for that, because it becomes a struggle to get them more powerful for no reason, like a few other manga titles I know... <-<) and you'd have to accept it. There are no contradictions here. She reacted to the lightning, it was still cloud to ground lightning no matter what you're trying to imply Kalifa did those feats, she dodged the lightning at first, timed or otherwise she still had to have the reflexes, that's why she was judged at Hypersonic+ for said feats though we know guys in CP9 who were overwhelmingly stronger than her, that's why we powerscaled that feat from her to them.

You're not making your case any stronger by changing their speeds because you think it's an inconsistency. It isn't. Nami is intelligent, she uses tactics, that's how she overwhelms her foes. She didn't catch her with the first technique, and Thunder Lance Tempo was the "slower" attack I presume? Guess how's it's done ?

This uses the same scenes from the manga before anyone makes even the tiniest bit of nonsense that I'm using the anime to give feats. It's still REAL lightning, and Kalifa was caught off-guard. She was using her Clima-tact as a lightning rod to make the lightning strike her. So it was still cloud to ground lightning only in a different position, as again, Nami uses her smarts with weather to perform her techniques.

 

[Rib78]

That makes no sense. Getting tagged by an attack doesn't contradict reacting to it earlier; that would invalidate literally 99% of speed feats ever. Even in One Piece alone there are plenty of examples of the same thing happenning and no one bats an eye.

 

[Darkness552]

ok im closing it then

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Yeah keep believeing what ya want to believe... I've already been through this discussion twice now and am in no mood to continue it

Yeah the admins have already accepted that she wasn't caught off guard as she reacted in the exact same manner she did the first time. And when did I say I think it was inconsistent. It's already an accepted fact. The admins give me permission to change the stats...

Anyhow I'm done keep believeing what ya want to believe...

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Rib78 generally has good judgement, whereas I am extremely tired and feeling dizzy. It is hard to make good judgement calls in this state. Perhaps I was being premature in accepting this? Please ask Lord Kavpeny what he thinks?

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

And how about the fact that she was tagged by an attack which was far slower than lightning then...

 

[Davy0]

guys, I made another one so close this one so we can use mine, please.

 

[Davy0]

What's this "slower" attack then man...

 

[Darkness552]

no Davy0 just stay on this one

 

[Antvasima]

Could you move your post here instead please?

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

guys, I made another one so close this one so we can use mine, please.

No

And that's thunder ball tempo if I remember correctly. The atack which shoots a ton of lightning balls of sort... the same thing which took 5-10 seconds for it to reach miss doube finger in the Alabasta arc when she was only a few feet away from nami.

Only thing I have to ask is why the hell wan't she abl to react to something thousands of thimes slower than lightning if she had lightning speed reactions...

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Also here




Nami starts preparing her thunder lance tempo and what does Kalifa do she walks towards it and stares at like an idiot completely avoiding Nami who could've attacked her at any moment. She should've already known what was gonna happen or at least some parts of it as she had already seen Nami's other attacks yet she does nothing and acts like an idiot...




And here's she's hit by lightning...

 

[Davy0]

That's more confusion than anything. You do realize that Nami was hiding her Clima-Tact from her in that scene correct. She stares like an "idiot" as you call her because she doesn't know why there's still a cloud. The simple fact that Nami was using it in said way, when lightning usually only reacts from cloud to ground making her mind boggle is not unheard of. And how are you going to dodge something you're so surprised at?

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Oh so you simply stare at something in the middle of battle huh. There was a cloud there and she should've already guessed that lightning was gonna strike as that was what happened the very first time but no she has to be an idiot and simply stare at the thing all the while ignoring Nami who could attack her at any moment huh.

Also this




is where she fails to react to the bubbles. How exactly do ya get caught off guard by something which is standing right in front of you. Nami didn't perform a surprise attack here she simply launched her Thunder Ball Tempo straight in front of Kalifa.

If it was a surprise attack then yes we could say she was off guard but it was an attack which was performed right in front of her eyes. I don't seee how she could've been caught off guard here...

I don't see why Kalifa couldn't just form her soap wall here. Heck she only actually used it once and never again IIRC...

 

[Davy0]

Do you want to go into the talking versus fighting thing? You really wish to push that, you want me to go through all the instances where a person is speaking and an attack is going?

How about you read what Nami stated. The fact that she was attacking with both illusionary balls of lightning and actual lightning do not make her any less susceptible to the attack. "20% of those balls are actual Thunder balls" is what she states so that means that 80% were illusions meaning that she hid the static within said weavings of thunder balls, I don't see the contradiction there. How about not trying to make her illusions seem less relevant than they actually are.

Because again, usually lightning only goes downwards towards the ground in reality. Nami manipulated it with her staff so that it came her way instead. It was energized just as an actual cloud would be with static electricity, thus when it came she was still surprised. Nami was also turned away from her.

Again, she didn't know what Nami was doing, it was cloud lightning left over from Nami's first summons of static clouds through the thunder balls.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. That sounds reasonable. If Nami was tricking Kalifa with illusions, it would have been harder to dodge. Perhaps it would be best to change the profiles back?

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

Uhhh you don't need to cuz I already know all of them...

And why the hell didn't Kalifa just form her soap wall here if she thought that she couldn't avoid an attack which was far slower her supposed reaction speed angain this is why I call her an idiot...

I've already asked this question several times yet no one's given me an answer here...

There's also the fact that the Soap wall was only used once in the entire fight....

 

[Davy0]

Hold on Ant, I want to hear what Rib has to state before anything happens again. Maybe he can put Schu to rest with his statements.