One Piece pacifistas lasers downgrade

[PrinceofPein]

This is my first thread so it may be messy but here it goes

So this is the pacifistas speed profile
At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Can keep up with characters such as Sanji and Luffy), Speed of Light with laser beams (These beams work the same way as Kizaru's light beams) | Unknown

Which is reasonable cause x drake said they are a recreation of kizaru.
But the beams have been shown to not be as fast as the actual kizaru beams by feats

1. The following scans shows the pacifistas beams been dodged

This is zoro dodging the pacifista beam
I've seen an argument where they said it was aim dodged, but no this is not aim dodging the beam have been released before zoro started moving.

Then we have base luffy dodging the beams at close range even

Although this looks like a joke/gag something, usopp, franky and brook were shown to dodge it

If you check the second panel you will see some explosions going off while zoro, luffy and sanji were charging towards px-3, shows that they also dodged it again here, multiple ones this time

There are few more instances of the strawhats dodging it but well I think this is enough

Now this are scans of how it happened when the straw hats (especially luffy) was faced against kizaru light speed attacks

Although what really happened here was off panel, but basically zoro got hit by kizaru beams (even though he could dodge multiple of the pacifistas beams, and all straw hats were shocked be got hit by a beam)

We have here luffy getting saved by Ivan from kizaru beam

Then we also have luffy here unable to react to kizaru

Gear two luffy(luffy fastest form) getting called "too slow" and getting blitzed by a light speed kick

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/831870295211245581/831871362855206912/Screenshot_20210414-110854.png

This one is just minor since luffy was injured here, but still he couldn't react to kizaru beam



So with these i hope everyone can see that the pacifista beams are not light speed

So I propose that the new rating should be if the thread get accepted

Speed: At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Can keep up with characters such as Sanji and Luffy), Unknown with laser beams (Stated to be a recreation of Kizaru beams but are slower)


So here it is

 

[Eminiteable]

I disagree (I'll give my reasoning in a bit)

Right for Zoro he was out of commission at that point and was unable to keep fighting, he wouldnt be able to dodge even if he wanted too.

Luffy in mairneford wasn't focused on fighting Kizaru, only focusing on getting to Ace, so his ability to react to Kizaru could have been effected due to his lack of focus being on Kizaru and more so just trying to reach Ace as soon as he could, I believe there's even a point in Marineford where Luffy reacted to Kizaru so it's not like he's completely unable to.

(FYI I'm doing this off memory since I can't access the scans atm so if I'm mistaken do correct me)

 

[KingTempest]

@CinCameron20 @Damage3245 @Eminiteable @Elizhaa @KobsterHope07 @DemonGodMitchAubin

 

[StrawHatArslan]

I disagree heavily.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm definitely following this with interest though I'm neutral right now.

There does appear to be an inconsistency between all of the Pre-Timeskip Straw Hats dodging laser beams yet getting beaten easily by Kizaru, including the likes of Gear 2 Luffy who is hopelessly outmatched by Kizaru who is confirmed Speed of Light.

I suppose it's not impossible that Pacifista beams could be slower which account for the difference in portrayal.

EDIT: I'd like to remind people that even if you do disagree, just saying "I disagree" does not help with the thread. This isn't tallied by Yes Votes/No Votes. We need to examine the feats themselves and discuss them.

EDIT2: I don't know if this worth bringing up, but we have cases of Luffy dodging out of the way of Pacifista beams, but Kizaru's beams are so fast that Luffy doesn't have time to unlock Ace's cuffs before Kizaru can shoot the key from a distance with one of his beams. Either it's just PIS, or Luffy can react better against the Pacifista's attacks than Kizaru's attacks for some reason.

 

[KobsterHope07]

For Zoro’s case, we don’t know much what happen since it was off-screen. Zoro was still suffering from his wounds from Thriller Bark and I remember somewhere in the fight, Zoro couldn’t react in time to Pacifista’ laser and got hit badly (509 or 510) and was writhing on the ground in pain. Zoro wasn’t in the best shape to be reacting to a healthy Kizaru.

 

[theultimate5105]

I agree with this let’s also take into consideration that Vegapunk has failed to perfectly recreate devil fruit abilities before

 

[LordGinSama]

I disagree and after work I'll delve further into why the OP is incorrect, since I'm seeing a lot of Fallacies and wonky logic being used.

 

[PrinceofPein]

For Zoro’s case, we don’t know much what happen since it was off-screen. Zoro was still suffering from his wounds from Thriller Bark and I remember somewhere in the fight, Zoro couldn’t react in time to Pacifista’ laser and got hit badly (509 or 510) and was writhing on the ground in pain. Zoro wasn’t in the best shape to be reacting to a healthy Kizaru.

Well thats why I said we dont know how it happened since its off panel, but yes you have a valid point
Anything could have happened and any scenario we come up with will be head canon

 

[USklaverei]

I also totally disagree with that and when I get home from work I will give my argument.

 

[KingTempest]

Now that I've mentioned them, I've done my job being neutral.

Now it's time to disagree.

Although what really happened here was off panel, but basically zoro got hit by kizaru beams (even though he could dodge multiple of the pacifistas beams, and all straw hats were shocked be got hit by a beam)

Extremely ignoring context.
Zoro actually was tagged by the Pacifista's laser.
In the previous arc, Zoro took a large sum of damage that even left his leader (with incredible stamina) incapacitated. Sanji notes in the scan I sent above that Zoro was injured.

Over time, they all got to the point where the entire team lost stamina. Luffy's hyperactive self even took a break and said that they should take a quick break. Sanji says that they don't have the stamina to fight another Pacifista.

He ignores that the team was shocked that Zoro got hit by a laser. If the lasers were vastly out of their level, they wouldn't be shocked.

The OP also clearly doesn't understand what speed is. Speed = Distance/Time.
The laser that Kizaru fired at an injured Zoro was point blank while the others were even further away. Distance means a lot.

Kizaru even confirms that the fact that he was put down in one hit from the laser means that he's tired.

Sanji also says later that Zoro was at his limits and Zoro flat out says that he ran out of stamina on the same page.

Also the fact that Usopp throws his arm up to block the light from Kizaru that was coming towards them, showing that he reacted to Kizaru's light.

Proof that I'm right?
Exhibit A
Exhibit B
Exhibit C

They were all tired and got hit by the same lasers they dodged prior.

So no, this point is null.

We have here luffy getting saved by Ivan from kizaru beam

You have yet to prove that Luffy was incapable of dodging Kizaru's beam.
Luffy was running towards his laser and he stares at the laser after it is fired in your scan.

"Luffy getting saved by Ivan" Luffy was getting kicked around by him prior, so he was also injured.
You're mistaking "being thankful" for "being helpless". Luffy could react, it's just that he was thankful that someone else helped him.

Whitebeard got saved by Luffy when Crocodile attacked him even though Whitebeard noticed him, even Marco complimented his skill. Is Luffy > Whitebeard now? Or is Crocodile > Whitebeard now?

Luffy also fought Magellan, who can fight and badly body Ivankov, so Luffy scales to Ivankov who reacted to the laser. Keep going.

Then we also have luffy here unable to react to kizaru

Then we have an injured Luffy who has been targeted by the strongest swordsman in the world and 2 admirals, already heavily exhausted after screaming for 10 hours from being poisoned, and escaping from a prison perceiving Kizaru's close ranged attacks.

Gear two luffy(luffy fastest form) getting called "too slow" and getting blitzed by a light speed kick

Luffy got stabbed in his throat twice, got poisoned, gets cut by the strongest swordsman, gets stabbed in his chest with an ice stick, got hit by lasers in his chest, and gets his lifespan chopped off by Ivankov's healing, then he uses Gear Second which axes his stamina, and he still partially reacted to Kizaru. Keep up.
Go learn the difference between combat speed and travel speed.

Luffy using Soru surprised 2/3 of the admirals. Then Kizaru with the highest travel speed in the verse catches up to him and kicks an injured Luffy even though Luffy perceives him and stares at him in his face.

This one is just minor since luffy was injured here, but still he couldn't react to kizaru beam

Why is that minor? Luffy was injured the whole time. Everything should've been minor.

Every feat that's good is an outlier/gag feat. Every feat that's bad while they're about to die is primary canon.

You and everybody else that agrees has the habit of saying that anybody that's not a god tier doing feats of this caliber is a gag feat or an outlier.
This is the only verse where you have more outliers than regular feats.

let’s also take into consideration that Vegapunk has failed to perfectly recreate devil fruit abilities before

Let's also take into consideration that it took place in the last 38 years where he couldn't mimic a mythical zoan fruit's ability.
Let's also take into consideration that people can learn from their mistakes.
Let's also take into consideration that Ivankov mistakes Kizaru's laser for the Pacifista's laser.

X Drake said that the Pacifista created Kizaru's ability. He didn't say "he attempted to make it" or "he mimicked his ability", he said "he remade Kizaru's ability".

The fact that he could perceive the laser and tell that it was Kizaru's instead of saying "it has laser beams" signifies that the laser is the same.

This thread, in all honesty, is a desperate attempt to ignore feats and claim them as gag feats/outliers and use feats of injured characters to justify downgrades.

I've said my portion.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

neutral, but learning towards disagree with crt

 

[joshpiece]

I agree with Tempest

The Pascifita lasers and Kizarus lasers have been shown to be the exact same thing. To downgrade the Pacifista you would downgrade Kizarus as well.

Also, why are debating the credibility of Vegapunk? Vegapunk is the world's smartest man, His technology is 500 years ahead but yet he can't make a simple laser? Especially since he has a literal man of light to model it off of?

 

[PrinceofPein]

The laser that Kizaru fired at an injured Zoro was point blank while the others were even further away. Distance means a lot.

This is a lie tho
You can't prove it was point blank since its off-panel?

Also the fact that Usopp throws his arm up to block the light from Kizaru that was coming towards them, showing that he reacted to Kizaru's light.

Uhhmmm this is extremely wrong, I don't even know what to say
Apoo also said same thing, its so bright when the mirror was coming, but he got blitzed by kizaru kick either way

Proof that I'm right?
Exhibit A
Exhibit B
Exhibit C

They were all tired and got hit by the same lasers they dodged prior.

I literally said we dont know what happened since its off-panel this doesnt still debunk the fact that luffy could not react to kizaru tho

of dodging Kizaru's beam.
Luffy was running towards his laser and he stares at the laser after it is fired in your scan.

"Luffy getting saved by Ivan" Luffy was getting kicked around by him prior, so he was also injured.
You're mistaking "being thankful" for "being helpless". Luffy could react, it's just that he was thankful that someone else helped him.

Whitebeard got saved by Luffy when Crocodile attacked him even though Whitebeard noticed him, even Marco complimented his skill. Is Luffy > Whitebeard now? Or is Crocodile > Whitebeard now?

Luffy also fought Magellan, who can fight and badly body Ivankov, so Luffy scales to Ivankov who reacted to the laser. Keep going.

What's with you and false equivalency?

First bring the proof that luffy could react? Lol he didnt react he was saved but somehow to you, that means that he can react??

And yes Ivan if anything winked before the beam was released or simply outlier

Luffy got stabbed in his throat twice, got poisoned, gets cut by the strongest swordsman, gets stabbed in his chest with an ice stick, got hit by lasers in his chest, and gets his lifespan chopped off by Ivankov's healing, then he uses Gear Second which axes his stamina, and he still partially reacted to Kizaru. Keep up.
Go learn the difference between combat speed and travel speed.

All of which was healed/removed by Ivan
He could no longer feel the pain and was even boosted by Ivan

Why is that minor? Luffy was injured the whole time. Everything should've been minor.

Injuries that were healed/minor

You keep throwing about he was tired but ignored him getting boosted by Ivan prior? Or which attack did he take before he met kizaru that would have prevented him from reacting??

Lol g2 luffy was called slow by light speed kizaru and statued

 

[PrinceofPein]

X Drake said that the Pacifista created Kizaru's ability. He didn't say "he attempted to make it" or "he mimicked his ability", he said "he remade Kizaru's ability".

The fact that he could perceive the laser and tell that it was Kizaru's instead of saying "it has laser beams" signifies that the laser is the same.

This is a moot point

X Drake saw the lasers from pacifistas and its identical to how kizaru own works and he was a navy man before so yes he knows about vegapunk experiments hence why he said "he finally recreated "

And yes recreating doesnt mean it will be as fast

 

[KingTempest]

This is a lie tho
You can't prove it was point blank since its off-panel?

Look at Kizaru.

Standing right in front of Zoro.

Uhhmmm this is extremely wrong, I don't even know what to say

Get mad

Apoo also said same thing, its so bright when the mirror was coming, but he got blitzed by kizaru kick either way

You say it as if this isn't a Kenbunshoku user who can't predict movements.

I literally said we dont know what happened since its off-panel this doesnt still debunk the fact that luffy could not react to kizaru tho

Injured.

What's with you and false equivalency?

What's with you and bad arguments?

First bring the proof that luffy could react?

Luffy ~ Magellan ~ Ivankov who can react.

Lol he didnt react he was saved but somehow to you, that means that he can react??

What?

And yes Ivan if anything winked before the beam was released or simply outlier

Another outlier.

All of which was healed/removed by Ivan
He could no longer feel the pain and was even boosted by Ivan

Oars couldn't feel pain and he had cuts in his body.
Feeling pain ≠ getting damaged.

Injuries that were healed/minor

Gear Second chops his lifespan off.
He got poisoned and was yelling.
He got stabbed in his neck by a Shigan.
He got stabbed by an Ice stick.
He got hit with Kizaru's lasers.
Then the "healing" chopped his lifespan.

You don't know what minor is.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I agree with Tempest

The Pascifita lasers and Kizarus lasers have been shown to be the exact same thing. To downgrade the Pacifista you would downgrade Kizarus as well.

Also, why are debating the credibility of Vegapunk? Vegapunk is the world's smartest man, His technology is 500 years ahead but yet he can't make a simple laser? Especially since he has a literal man of light to model it off of?

Why will you downgrade kizaru?
This logic if funny
None of them could react to kizaru once, but reacted to the pacifistas own?

By your logic if I try to create a gun that fires at 100m/s but the one I created fires at 50m/s. That means the original one is also 50m/s?

 

[KingTempest]

X Drake saw the lasers from pacifistas and its identical to how kizaru own works and he was a navy man before so yes he knows about vegapunk experiments hence why he said "he finally recreated "

Definition of identical.

similar in every detail; exactly alike.

So what are you talking about.

And yes recreating doesnt mean it will be as fast

Google "identical".

 

[KingTempest]

I don't want to hear any Sabaody or Paramount antifeats.

Using an antifeat from an injured Luffy or Zoro is like me saying that Catarina Devon scales to Whitebeard even though he was dying.

I feel disrespected that this was even a thread right after my thread on putting them SoL, and the arguments are that "those who reacted, outlier, and those who didn't react, non outlier".

You tried to say Usopp dodging a laser is a gag feat but then you try to say that the laser isn't LS. Pick a side.

But if I send Buggy reacting to the laser and not getting dimed in his forehead by Kizaru who's precision is good enough to snipe keys, it's a gag feat.

You're using the fastest travel speed character with PRECOGNITION as an antifeat. You guys are funny.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Look at Kizaru.

Standing right in front of Zoro.

Off panel, we dont know what happened

What's with you and bad arguments?

Which of it is bad?

Luffy ~ Magellan ~ Ivankov who can react.

Scans ivankov winked before kizaru released the beams if anything we saw the beams charging, Ivan winking, then beams going off and explosions

Gear Second chops his lifespan off.

Yes makes him faster and be was still called too slow by light speed kizaru and was statued

He got poisoned and was yelling.
He got stabbed in his neck by a Shigan.
He got stabbed by an Ice stick.
He got hit with Kizaru's lasers.
Then the "healing" chopped his lifespan.

And he was boosted by Ivan

Please just explain why light speed kizaru could statue the fastest form of.Luffy


I feel this is a thread that will go on in repeated cycles tbh

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Why do I feel like there is going to be a bad conflict here...

 

[KobsterHope07]

Why do I feel like there is going to be a bad conflict here...

Because you can see into the future

 

[PrinceofPein]

Using an antifeat from an injured Luffy or Zoro is like me saying that Catarina Devon scales to Whitebeard even though he was dying.

Luffy was not injured tho, he has been healed and couldn't even feel anything

But if I send Buggy reacting to the laser and not getting dimed in his forehead by Kizaru who's precision is good enough to snipe keys, it's a gag feat.

This is not reaction boss
Tf is this?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Why do I feel like there is going to be a bad conflict here...

Obvs haki?

 

[PrinceofPein]

feel disrespected that this was even a thread right after my thread on putting them SoL, and the arguments are that "those who reacted, outlier, and those who didn't react, non outlier".

Well the entire thing is to have a consistent scaling

The only character that is in pre TS luffy speed group that reacted (even though you can't prove he did, since he winked before the beam was released) is Ivan, but we have tons others that says otherwise, if anything yes that 1/many will be outlier

 

[joshpiece]

None of them could react to kizaru once, but reacted to the pacifistas own?

Usopp and Brook reacted to Kizaru in his light form.

Hell brook even got off a sentence before Kizaru got there.

 

[KingTempest]

Off panel, we dont know what happened

WE SEE HIM RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM. It doesn't matter if it's off panel, if the next panel is him right in front of him, then it means he was right in front of him.

So when I argue it, "off panel", but you used this as one of your primary evidences against it.

Which of it is bad?

The whole OP.

Scans ivankov winked before kizaru released the beams if anything we saw the beams charging, Ivan winking, then beams going off and explosions

This onomatopeia (ビュン) right above Luffy's head signifies "fast moving projectile", which means the laser was fired.
Notice how the onomatopoeia for the shining laser and the moving laser are completely different.

Ivankov blinks after.

Which means the beam was fired before Ivankov blinked.

Yes makes him faster and be was still called too slow by light speed kizaru and was statued

And he was boosted by Ivan

Send scans of all his stats being put to where it's at in his peak health.

Please just explain why light speed kizaru could statue the fastest form of.Luffy

Kenbunshoku Haki and millions of times higher than his travel speed.

 

[Loyd]

vs battles what is that? CRT conflict is where its at following

 

[PrinceofPein]

Definition of identical.

So what are you talking about.

Google "identical".

Replica?
Looks identical but different

Usopp and Brook reacted to Kizaru in his light form.

Hell brook even got off a sentence before Kizaru got there.

Uhhmmm its the mirror, and I already explained they noticed a bright light not react
Same with apoo he could notice the mirror but can't react to kizaru kick

brook getting a sentence of is PIS unless sound is faster than light

WE SEE HIM RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM. It doesn't matter if it's off panel, if the next panel is him right in front of him, then it means he was right in front of him.

So when I argue it, "off panel", but you used this as one of your primary evidences against it.

I literally said I dont know since it happened off panel
And yes after the beam hit zoro we saw kizaru walking through the smoke towards zoro, brook and usopp

This onomatopeia (ビュン) right above Luffy's head signifies "fast moving projectile", which means the laser was fired.
Notice how the onomatopoeia for the shining laser and the moving laser are completely different.

Okay I checked the link and I can't find the kanji for the one above luffy head (written in red) and the kanji in yellow is for something charging which still supports my point

Send scans of all his stats being put to where it's at in his peak health.

How am I supposed to know this?
Lol Ivan literally said his hormone or whatever boosts makes him unable to feel past pain and heals him, but new ones will be felt. And we see luffy bouncing about filled with life afterwards

Kenbunshoku Haki and millions of times higher than his travel speed

Kizaru kick is combat speed not travel speed, and its also LS which luffy can't react to and was still statued by kizaru while in G2

 

[StrawHatArslan]

I agree with KingTempest's points

 

[PrinceofPein]

I agree with KingTempest's points

Sorry but none of his points addressed G2 luffy getting statued by a light speed attack and called too slow by kizaru

 

[joshpiece]

Uhhmmm its the mirror, and I already explained they noticed a bright light not react
Same with apoo he could notice the mirror but can't react to kizaru kick

Yata no Kagami (Eight Span Mirror): Borsalino forms light in between his hands, and reflects it off any surface he wishes. He then transforms into the light in order to get to his desired location.

They would still be reacting to Light... Kizaru shoots a beam of light to travel. It's not "noticing" or perceiving Ussopp put his hand up to block the light its reaction.

 

[theultimate5105]

Let's also take into consideration that it took place in the last 38 years where he couldn't mimic a mythical zoan fruit's ability

Let's also take into consideration that people can learn from their mistakes.
Let's also take into consideration that Ivankov mistakes Kizaru's laser for the Pacifista's laser.

X Drake said that the Pacifista created Kizaru's ability. He didn't say "he attempted to make it" or "he mimicked his ability", he said "he remade Kizaru's ability".

The fact that he could perceive the laser and tell that it was Kizaru's instead of saying "it has laser beams" signifies that the laser is the same.

This thread, in all honesty, is a desperate attempt to ignore feats and claim them as gag feats/outliers and use feats of injured characters to justify downgrades.

I've said my portion.

First of all the type doesn't matter second of all that is what just X drake thinks and remaking a ability isn't always the exact same actually remade just sounds like he made a new version or copied it

 

[M3X_2.0]

OP, try to click the images and decrease their size, it's painful to read.

Sorry but none of his points addressed G2 luffy getting statued by a light speed attack and called too slow by kizaru

You are not the one who decides this. Either debunk his arguments or stop talking that Tempest doesn't adress X thing. He will adress everything you said at given time.

 

[PrinceofPein]

They would still be reacting to Light... Kizaru shoots a beam of light to travel. It's not "noticing" or perceiving Ussopp put his hand up to block the light its reaction.

Same thing with apoo,
Apoo could notice the light mirror still got blitzed by kizaru LS kick

 

[PrinceofPein]

You are not the one who decides this. Either debunk his arguments or stop talking that Tempest doesn't adress X thing. He will adress everything you said at given time

Already replied his argument, read the thread

 

[joshpiece]

Same thing with apoo,
Apoo could notice the light mirror still got blitzed by kizaru LS kick

Prove his mirror isn't Sol.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Prove his mirror isn't Sol.

Where did I say this?

Lol please stop this already
You even made the claim "brook was fast enough to even say " this is so bright" iirc so that means brook speaks at SOL or sound is faster than light??

And yes same way someone turn on a bright light its instinctive you protect ur eyes

 

[Damage3245]

There's been a ton of points made back and forth since I left this thread. Just to pick out something at random:

But if I send Buggy reacting to the laser and not getting dimed in his forehead by Kizaru who's precision is good enough to snipe keys, it's a gag feat.

I don't consider this a gag feat or a feat feat from Buggy. It looks to me like Kizaru purposefully aimed near his head as a warning, not Buggy dodging his attack. Kizaru speaks to him afterwards, telling him to drop Luffy.

There doesn't seem to be an indication that Buggy noticed the beam coming and leaned out of the way or dodged it.

Just giving my thoughts on this particular feat.

EDIT: There's a couple of other "feats" that I don't think are noteworthy here either like Usopp and Brook reacting to a beam of light shining on them. It's not any different than someone shining a torch on you and you raising you hand to shield your eyes.

 

[YungManzi]

I do have a question concerning this....

Why exactly are X Drake's statements taken as fact? Is he shown to be an Extraordinary Genius later on or something?

His profile says nothing about his actual credibility aside from him knowing about Vegapunk and Pacifistas, which is vague intelligence-wise.

This is coming from someone who dropped OP before Dressrosa.