One Piece General Discussion: Elbaph

[Kachon123]

Enel is pure evil. He committed mass genocide just because he thought he had the right as a god.

He committed mass genocide to amass fear so that he can prove to himself that he's god. Seems more like a mental disorder imo

 

[Ryuga21]

Seems more like a mental disorder imo

A purely evil and sociopathic mental disorder. Furthermore, Enel indiscriminately killed anyone who got in his way, and ruled Skypiea with sick tyranny. The most kind thing seen from him was lighting Sanji's cigarette.

 

[Kachon123]

A purely evil and sociopathic mental disorder. Furthermore, Enel indiscriminately killed anyone who got in his way, and ruled Skypiea with sick tyranny. The most kind thing seen from him was lighting Sanji's cigarette.

Fair enough lol

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

A purely evil and sociopathic mental disorder. Furthermore, Enel indiscriminately killed anyone who got in his way, and ruled Skypiea with sick tyranny. The most kind thing seen from him was lighting Sanji's cigarette.

That’s not really kind considering smoking is bad for you

Probably did it to ruin sanji’s health

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Sanji's lungs are tougher than Kaido's skin and equal to Zoro's liver in durability and endurance. He'll be fine.

 

[Kachon123]

Sanji's lungs are tougher than Kaido's skin and equal to Zoro's liver in durability

 

[Fireld]

That’s not really kind considering smoking is bad for you

Probably did it to ruin sanji’s health

It's much worse for Enel than Sanji, trust me

 

[DaMonkeMan]

 

[That_moron2]

 

[Sus]

brother damn
reminds me of the 500 hundreds cigarettes meme

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Saturn's left behind on Egghead... Rematch between Sanji and Saturn's left eye incoming?

 

[XDragnoir]

How many characters have shown divination-type precog (or in other words, seeing the future) in the series so far?

Shyarly has it through unknown means iirc, Katakuri, Luffy, Kaido and Shanks have shown it through Kenbu regularly, Sanji had that one moment, did I forget anyone? Is there any other method to use divination?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Sanji had that one moment,

The jelly bean or something else?

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Is that a mother ******* Axel in Harlem reference

 

[Ryuga21]

did I forget anyone? Is there any other method to use divination?

I remember Enel correctly predicting how many survivors would be left at the end of the conflict in Upper Yard and Toki making her prophecy. That's only if these examples fit in divination.

 

[XDragnoir]

I remember Enel correctly predicting how many survivors would be left at the end of the conflict in Upper Yard and Toki making her prophecy. That's only if these examples fit in divination.

I mean, as you said he predicted it + we know from his fight with Luffy he couldn't really see the future akin to what Katakuri does.

Idk about Toki, we didn't get much info about how she got that prophecy IIRC.

The jelly bean or something else?

Yeah, that one.

I am asking cause I keep seeing threads giving conflicting answers on this topic, in one thread even the most standard Haki can see into the future and the next it's only for Advanced Kenbu.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I mean, as you said he predicted it + we know from his fight with Luffy he couldn't really see the future akin to what Katakuri does.

Idk about Toki, we didn't get much info about how she got that prophecy IIRC.


Yeah, that one.

I am asking cause I keep seeing threads giving conflicting answers on this topic, in one thread even the most standard Haki can see into the future and the next it's only for Advanced Kenbu.

I think the jellybean thing was basic Kenbun, it's just Sanji's is particularly good.
Also, yes, Observation always let you see into the future. I think we discussed that some pages back. It's just that normal Observation only lets you see the immediate future (so like one second into the future at most).

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

even the most standard Haki can see into the future

They know the future, which gives them visions in their mind of what the know will happen in the future

The anime shows us how it somewhat works... You just know by reading their will/intent... Like for example when you close your eyes and can imagine a whole fight scene the same way works with the precog of obs Haki from the future but you imagine it more clearly and accurate... They know exactly when and where in the future the attacks will be at before they do anything

Advanced is actually looking directly into the future, giving you more information like sound, the environment and lasts for a longer duration of time... Basically advanced is future imagination precog and seeing the future directly

Hear and See
The ability to sense the presence of others. By enhancing this ability, one can avoid attacks from blind spots, and read the number of enemies and what they are going to do next. The "mind net" of the sky islands is a similar power.

Future Foresight
Those who have mastered the art of "the color of seeing and hearing" are able to foresee the future a little further. They know in advance what the other person will do next, what they will say, and even how they will respond.

It's clearly stated that way also

 

[XDragnoir]

Advanced is actually looking directly into the future, giving you more information like sound, the environment and lasts for a longer duration of time... Basically advanced is future imagination precog and seeing the future directly

It's this part that confuses me, Advanced can see the future directly as you just said, so Intermediate Kenbu can't see directly into the future?

And in case Intermediate Kenbu can use some kind of 1 second future sight... Who exactly can use it? MonkeMan just said Sanji didn't really use it (Idk any other moment Sanji would ever have used it if not that one) and Pre-Kata Luffy's Kenbu can't really be compared to anyone else's IMO, only those who actually reached Advanced Level.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

It's this part that confuses me, Advanced can see the future directly as you just said, so Intermediate Kenbu can't see directly into the future?

And in case Intermediate Kenbu can use some kind of 1 second future sight... Who exactly can use it? MonkeMan just said Sanji didn't really use it (Idk any other moment Sanji would ever have used it if not that one) and Pre-Kata Luffy's Kenbu can't really be compared to anyone else's IMO, only those who actually reached Advanced Level.

I meant he didn't use actual Future Sight, as in ACoO. Just normal CoO

 

[XDragnoir]

I meant he didn't use actual Future Sight, as in ACoO. Just normal CoO

I mean, that's just more confusing yk, if both CoO and ACoO can see into the future then both have Future Sight, it's just that CoO can only see 1 second as you said.

So like, can Sanji see the future or not? And he is among the best, what about Doffy, the Flying 6 and other weak users?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

… I don’t see how it’s confusing, I explained the difference… the end result of the differences is that advanced can see more intel (by directly seeing everything) and further ahead into the future

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I mean, that's just more confusing yk, if both CoO and ACoO can see into the future then both have Future Sight, it's just that CoO can only see 1 second as you said.

So like, can Sanji see the future or not? And he is among the best, what about Doffy, the Flying 6 and other weak users?

Sanji is kinda unknown/debatable if he has advanced. Doffy and the others, that are unconfirmed users of advanced are just intermediate and just get knowledge of the future… and you can kinda determine their superiority by seeing who out precogs who in a way or who’s observation haki is better (like sensing further than someone else also shows you the superiority)

↑使用者の能力が高ければ、把握できる範囲も拡大!

↑The higher the user's ability, the greater the area that can be grasped!

 

[Sus]

what tier do u think end game characters will be? we're already at possibly low 5B

what tier would destroying the planet be?

 

[XDragnoir]

Sanji is kinda unknown/debatable if he has advanced. Doffy and the others, that are unconfirmed users of advanced are just intermediate and just get knowledge of the future…

I am not really asking if they have Advanced Kenbu or not, I am more or less asking how much into the future they can see and which characters have this ability.

For example, Enel's Kenbu couldn't get any knowledge of the future since that's why Luffy punching randomly could hit him, so which characters can get knowledge of the future without ACoC?

… I don’t see how it’s confusing, I explained the difference… the end result of the differences is that advanced can see more intel (by directly seeing everything) and further ahead into the future

I wasn't talking to you when I said it was confusing, I quoted MonkeMan and said his post was confusing me, your explanation was indeed really helpful.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I am not really asking if they have Advanced Kenbu or not, I am more or less asking how much into the future they can see and which characters have this ability.

We don't know. And it depends on the situation. The more they use it, the longer knowledge they'll get from the future... Same way you don't always punch for example at 90 percent strength depending on the situation... You'll use only 60 or 30% since that's the right amount you need in that moment (hard to fully explain) (basically similar to how much one will strengthen one's buso)

For example, Enel's Kenbu couldn't get any knowledge of the future since that's why Luffy punching randomly could hit him, so which characters can get knowledge of the future without ACoC?

Luffy was always way faster than him, he needed to use precog/aimdodge against luffy to avoid him... He couldn't sense the will/intent of luffy's attacks which is why he wasn't able to precog him well enough, and luffy was somehow able to turn of his brain off (Has to be a gear 5 ability cause ain't no way) which then would be like trying to precog a rock which is what breath of all things does (turn non living to living ones and sense their "breath")

All obs Haki user get some sort of knowledge of the future

Beginner level luffy could only imagine the attacks flickering in and out and having a rough silhouette, while someone who've mastered it like katakuri sees very clearly

I wasn't talking to you when I said it was confusing, I quoted MonkeMan and said his post was confusing me, your explanation was indeed really helpful.

Ohh I see

 

[XDragnoir]

We don't know. And it depends on the situation. The more they use it, the longer knowledge they'll get from the future... Same way you don't always punch for example at 90 percent strength depending on the situation... You'll use only 60 or 30% since that's the right amount you need in that moment (hard to fully explain) (basically similar to how much one will strengthen one's buso)

Got it, any general limits tho? Like, "more than x, less than y"?

Luffy was always way faster than him, he needed to use precog/aimdodge against luffy to avoid him... He couldn't sense the will/intent of luffy's attacks which is why he wasn't able to precog him well enough, and luffy was somehow able to turn of his brain off (Has to be a gear 5 ability cause ain't no way) which then would be like trying to precog a rock which is what breath of all things does (turn non living to living ones and sense their "breath")

But that's the reason I am saying he doesn't have knowledge of the future, Enel's Kenbu is different from straight up taking any info from the future, his Kenbu is based on mind/intent/will reading which are all information acquired in the present rather than the future, all of these combined allow him to know his opponents next move... but that's not knowledge taken from the future.

If he had any knowledge of the future it wouldn't matter if Luffy thinks or not about his attacks, all of them would be equally avoidable by knowing what they will hit in the future.

All obs Haki user get some sort of knowledge of the future

IMO from what I said above, Enel doesn't and given anti-feats so many other low level users have this doesn't line up, only those that are really close to ACoO (FMI-WCI Luffy, WCI Sanji, etc) really have anything supporting having knowledge taken from the future rather than knowledge in the present about the future (be it their opponents thoughts, movements, intent, etc).

(The main difference being that the former is divination and the latter isn't).

I discussed something similar with @Eminiteable a long time ago and we more or less agreed that the Breath of All Things doesn't fit any of the two categories of Precognition the wiki uses.

Beginner level luffy could only imagine the attacks flickering in and out and having a rough silhouette, while someone who've mastered it like katakuri sees very clearly

I mean, does it matter that Luffy did that at the beginning? Again, most Kenbu users don't have feats supporting have Kenbu on the same level as him (many have anti-feats for having any level of future knowledge).

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

But that's the reason I am saying he doesn't have knowledge of the future, Enel's Kenbu is different from straight up taking any info from the future, his Kenbu is based on mind/intent/will reading which are all information acquired in the present rather than the future, all of these combined allow him to know his opponents next move... but that's not knowledge taken from the future.

If he had any knowledge of the future it wouldn't matter if Luffy thinks or not about his attacks, all of them would be equally avoidable by knowing what they will hit in the future.

Nah... They know the future by reading their presence's will/intent... If no living thing exists on a planet, your precog will be useless/not work because there's no intent to get the knowledge from anything... That's how obs Haki works

He gets knowledgeable from the future by reading their will/intent, clearly doesn't differentiate Enel's obs haki

IMO from what I said above, Enel doesn't and given anti-feats so many other low level users have this doesn't line up, only those that are really close to ACoO (FMI-WCI Luffy, WCI Sanji, etc) really have anything supporting having knowledge taken from the future rather than knowledge in the present about the future (be it their opponents thoughts, movements, intent, etc).

(The main difference being that the former is divination and the latter isn't).

That simply makes no sense. Satori exists and so does every other mantra user.

I discussed something similar with @Eminiteable a long time ago and we more or less agreed that the Breath of All Things doesn't fit any of the two categories of Precognition the wiki uses.

It's definitely divination precog like obs Haki but to non living things, I might create a crt for that later to change that

I mean, does it matter that Luffy did that at the beginning? Again, most Kenbu users don't have feats supporting have Kenbu on the same level as him (many have anti-feats for having any level of future knowledge).

The anti feats are simply headcanon

this is beginning to intermediate obs haki... There's nothing else

Hear and See
The ability to sense the presence of others. By enhancing this ability, one can avoid attacks from blind spots, and read the number of enemies and what they are going to do next. The "mind net" of the sky islands is a similar power.

And then the next level is advanced

Future Foresight
Those who have mastered the art of "the color of seeing and hearing" are able to foresee the future a little further. They know in advance what the other person will do next, what they will say, and even how they will respond.

Obs Haki gives them knowledge of the future from their opponent and that's consistently been always a thing throughout

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Got it, any general limits tho? Like, "more than x, less than y"?

uhh.. Idk maybe you can try to find an average or something... For example shanks could see around 10 or more seconds I believe? But I haven't tried seeing how long because we don't know the actual timeframe of things... You can only assume

 

[XDragnoir]

Nah... They know the future by reading their presence's will/intent... If no living thing exists on a planet, your precog will be useless/not work because there's no intent to get the knowledge from anything... That's how obs Haki works

"Nah"? That's exactly what I said Enel does with his Kenbu.

Anyway, if their Kenbu is limited to living things then it's not future knowledge to begin with, it doesn't matter if it's a hole that will open in the ground or someone trying to kick you, future knowledge would apply to both, you're literally explaining why it's not "future knowledge" and instead just knowledge they get in the present.

He gets knowledgeable from the future by reading their will/intent, clearly doesn't differentiate Enel's obs haki

Again, reading intent isn't knowledge of the future.

That simply makes no sense. Satori exists and so does every other mantra user.

How does it not make sense? That's literally the requirement for Divination in the wiki, just read the precog page: "Divination, in which a user acquires impossible knowledge of upcoming events by looking into the future itself", Enel and his priests don't do this, they read their opponents mind and based on their thoughts know their next move.

Reading minds ≠ knowing the future

It's definitely divination precog like obs Haki but to non living things, I might create a crt for that later to change that

What? It has nothing to do with the future, it reads the breath to know where it will move, which is just basic precog, Divination is for what Shyarly and Katakuri can do.

The anti feats are simply headcanon

LMAO.

Enel not being able to know the future is headcanon?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Again, reading intent isn't knowledge of the future.

every reading intent abilities aren't the same.

they read their opponents mind and based on their thoughts know their next move.

Reading minds ≠ knowing the future

Not true.

Reading their will/intent ≠ literally reading minds/thoughts

Divination is for what Shyarly and Katakuri can do.

you are limiting divination type precog when there are many different versions without directly seeing the future

LMAO.

Enel not being able to know the future is headcanon?

Yes because your trying to differentiate his precog to everyone else even tho they all have the same precog, by knowing the future of the opponent's moves

 

[Kircdaaa]

if i remember correctly didnt ps east blue saga luffy have martial arts in his abilities did it get removed?

 

[XDragnoir]

every reading intent abilities aren't the same.

Sure? I never claimed they all were the same.

Not true.

Reading their will/intent ≠ literally reading minds/thoughts

From Blue Deep:

Foresee the enemy's moves!
The user reads the opponent's mind and can sense his next move! It is an ability that can allow the user to avoid an enemy's attacks, foresees movements to land an attack and react to all kinds of situations.

Nothing about looking into the future here, so it clearly isn't what Enel and his Priests do.

you are limiting divination type precog when there are many different versions without directly seeing the future

What? That's literally what the page says, I didn't limit anything, I quoted the source itself.

Yes because your trying to differentiate his precog to everyone else even tho they all have the same precog, by knowing the future of the opponent's moves

They know their opponent's next move, it's different from knowing the future.

There's a subtle difference, I hope you get it.

 

[The_man_with_the_Midas_touch]

if i remember correctly didnt ps east blue saga luffy have martial arts in his abilities did it get removed?

Check his first key.

Its grouped with weapon mastery in his younger section.

 

[KochengPutih]

Im sorry, this is a long time since i didnt follow this site

So
How many calcs and scalings will be changed after Egghead?

Are there new calcs?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

the goat has returned

 

[KingTempest]

the goat has returned

Yes I have

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Yes I have

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

From Blue Deep:

Foresee the enemy's moves!
The user reads the opponent's mind and can sense his next move! It is an ability that can allow the user to avoid an enemy's attacks, foresees movements to land an attack and react to all kinds of situations.

Nothing about looking into the future here, so it clearly isn't what Enel and his Priests do.

This is a more accurate translation

Read the hearts and minds of opponents and sense the next action they will take! This ability can be applied in a variety of situations, such as avoiding an enemy's attack or foreseeing his/her movement to attack.

心
mind
heart
less common:
spirit
friend
vitality
the meaning of a phrase (riddle, etc.)
Chinese "Heart" constellation (one of the 28 mansions)
inner strength

They aren’t literally reading their thoughts

What? That's literally what the page says, I didn't limit anything, I quoted the source itself.

… stop

They know their opponent's next move, it's different from knowing the future.

There's a subtle difference, I hope you get it.

They know the future of their opponents next moves, I’ve already said what the difference is between advanced and non advanced

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Op stuff

Gg, it ended