One Piece: Calc Removal

[SnookB]

There is no reason to think that Luffy wasn't using Haki to dodge it.

Give me the exact page and/or panel where Luffy gets the speed-lines effect, the gray screentone, or a statement that hints at him using specifically observation haki.
If there's none, then you're objectively wrong and making it up. There's confirmed armament haki usage the second he uses it. There's not a single comment about Kenbunshoku. If nothing within or outside the manga says he used it, then he didn't. Simple as that. "Could have" isn't good enough. At that point Haki was being heavily mentioned and hinted at everytime it was used too.

 

[Damage3245]

Give me the exact page and/or panel where Luffy gets the speed-lines effect, the gray screentone, or a statement that hints at him using specifically observation haki.
If there's none, then you're objectively wrong and making it up. There's confirmed armament haki usage the second he uses it. There's not a single comment about Kenbunshoku. If nothing within or outside the manga says he used it, then he didn't. Simple as that. "Could have" isn't good enough. At that point Haki was being heavily mentioned and hinted at everytime it was used too.

"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Just because those things aren't specifically noted in the series doesn't prove that he wasn't using Haki. I'm saying it is possible he used Haki (and I think it's likely he did too but that's a separate point), and the counter-argument to that is not "Prove he definitely used Haki." If we had those things then I would not be saying "It's possible that he used Haki."

It would be a weird writing choice anyway if Luffy used Haki to dodge bullets if his own senses could casually dodge lightspeed beams, but that's not an objective argument either way.

 

[CloverDragon03]

There is no reason to think that Luffy wasn't using Haki to dodge it.

No reason to think the inverse either, especially when the only Haki that Luffy used that was actually noted was his Armament Haki when he one-shotted the Pacifista

Well, what I have to say about the anime version is that it is too different to what happened in the manga to be used.

It's the only clarification we have of when Luffy moved to dodge the laser, and it's not so wildly different so as to just be rendered null and void. That's ridiculous.

 

[SnookB]

"The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Just because those things aren't specifically noted in the series doesn't prove that he wasn't using Haki. I'm saying it is possible he used Haki (and I think it's likely he did too but that's a separate point), and the counter-argument to that is not "Prove he definitely used Haki." If we had those things then I would not be saying "It's possible that he used Haki."

The absence of evidence when every other instance of that same thing was pointed out IS the evidence of absence.
It's not possible he used it because everytime he had used it in that arc it was mentioned or hinted at.

It would be a weird writing choice anyway if Luffy used Haki to dodge bullets if his own senses could casually dodge lightspeed beams, but that's not an objective argument either way.

And? If you're refering to the fake-luffy shooting him, his head was turned to that. That was to show he was aware of the threat even without seeing it. It's unrelated to the bullet itself.

 

[SnookB]

There's not even an SBS, a databook page, an outside source statement or anything alike that even hints at him using haki in that instance. Assuming he did is flat out false. Especially when that same page or a page later the usage of haki, though INVISIBLE TO THE READER, was pointed out by Sentomaru.

 

[Damage3245]

@SnookB; let's agree to disagree on that then.

 

[Eseseso]

IMO Nothing to suggest Luffy used Haki to dodge it.

 

[That_moron2]

@SnookB; let's agree to disagree on that then.

 

[EndlessPheonix750]

No reason to think the inverse either, especially when the only Haki that Luffy used that was actually noted was his Armament Haki when he one-shotted the Pacifista

It's the only clarification we have of when Luffy moved to dodge the laser, and it's not so wildly different so as to just be rendered null and void. That's ridiculous.

Bro, what's my argument? It's clearly stacking.

Bro, isn't it still stacking? The feats he says SOL slow with the feats he says thunder is faster are two events in a rather distant time, and isn't it possible for his perception to increase to FTL? As stated in the stacking page, using unclear time frames and compressing the results to SOL to make it look Low Ball is stacking

 

[SeijiSetto]

Bro, what's my argument? It's clearly stacking.

What are you talking about? A far slower and far weaker Luffy called light slow, so the assumption is that current Luffy should have at LEAST SoL reactions. There's no other stacking or hidden calculation.

 

[KingTempest]

I fail to understand how Luffy using Kenbunshoku with absolutely no evidence whatsoever is something that needs to be agreed to disagree on

 

[Damage3245]

I fail to understand how Luffy using Kenbunshoku with absolutely no evidence whatsoever is something that needs to be agreed to disagree on

If SnookB isn't even going to entertain the possibility of it, then I don't think there's any point continuing the discussion. I'm not going to waste their time or mine.

 

[SnookB]

If SnookB isn't even going to entertain the possibility of it, then I don't think there's any point continuing the discussion. I'm not going to waste their time or mine.

There is nothing that warrants entertaining it. I'm not entertaining something you made up for the sake of your own interpertation.
It's not a "agree to disagree" it's a "You're wrong and trying to save face". It's false flat out.

 

[SnookB]

If you keep using SOL, isn't it stacking? Because it uses an ambiguous time frame and compresses the result to SOL to make it look Low Ball.

It's not calc stacking, it's lowballing.
You agree that Luffy saying it's slow is a usable canon perception feat, but disagree because "Using a stronger Luffy with weaker perception is wrong". But it isn't, it's a bare minimum assumption basically, rather than calc stacking.
Calc stacking would be assuming he can perceive twice as fast or something just because he got that much stronger.

 

[SeijiSetto]

Bro, doesn't your argument support my statement? Luffy's weaker is said to have SOL perception because it says light is slow, and shouldn't when he's much stronger his perception go up? If you keep using SOL, isn't it stacking? Because it uses an ambiguous time frame and compresses the result to SOL to make it look Low Ball.

No, no my argument does not. My argument is "current Luffy is faster, so using SoL is a lowball". There's no ambiguous timeframe. There is no hidden calculation. There is no result compression here, I do not even know what that means.

His perception speed WOULD go up as he gets faster, hence why it is a lowball.

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

IMO Nothing to suggest Luffy used Haki to dodge it.

You know there's kinda no reason to think that he was using Haki to dodge it too right?

There is no reason to think that Luffy wasn't using Haki to dodge it.

I'm still very neutral on these argument but I do want to bring up that what LordGin provided from the databook supports Damage's notion that Luffy was using Haki in this instance

Proficient Kenbunshoku Haki users are stated to be capable of reacting to the speed of light.

"He releases an infinite number of light bullets frontwards. It’s very efficient for blinding and attacking a large amount of enemies at once.

His ability is very effective for both evasion and movement, so it’s impossible to grasp even a single of his movements without being a proficient Haki user."

This is referring to Kizaru of course however we can apply it to the Pacifistas since there abilities work nearly the same

In this case it states in order to keep up with lightspeed (Kizaru) you need at lest some degree of CoO Haki

 

[KingTempest]

I'm still very neutral on these argument but I do want to bring up that what LordGin provided from the databook supports Damage's notion that Luffy was using Haki in this instance


"He releases an infinite number of light bullets frontwards. It’s very efficient for blinding and attacking a large amount of enemies at once.

His ability is very effective for both evasion and movement, so it’s impossible to grasp even a single of his movements without being a proficient Haki user."

This is referring to Kizaru of course however we can apply it to the Pacifistas since there abilities work nearly the same

In this case it states in order to keep up with lightspeed (Kizaru) you need at lest some degree of CoO Haki

It never says you need it to keep up with lightspeed, it says you need it to keep up with Kizaru who blinds people and moves in ridiculously unnatural ways

Niji himself can move at lightspeed with no haki whatsoever

 

[Eseseso]

Didn't Hawkins react to a lightspeed kick?

 

[Shmeatywerbenmanjenson]

It never says you need it to keep up with lightspeed, it says you need it to keep up with Kizaru who blinds people and moves in ridiculously unnatural ways

Niji himself can move at lightspeed with no haki whatsoever

Yeah I'm not saying this is definitive proof that Luffy was using CoO Haki

I'm just saying it supports it

I'm still very neutral on the debate rn

 

[KingTempest]

Didn't Hawkins react to a lightspeed kick?

very very very ass, would be rel, and that doesn't mean much for the topic at hand

 

[Testarossa002]

Some of our standards are way too strict and used as a one-fit-all for all verses (coughs HDE) without regard for narrative implications.

If this was in the reverse, that is, Luffy was FTL there and called the attack "too fast", it'll be used to make a speed downgrade immediately.

 

[SnookB]

If this was in the reverse, that is, Luffy was FTL there and called the attack "too fast", it'll be used to make a speed downgrade immediately.

Yeah, and no one would disagree if that was the case. But that's a hypothetical that doesn't exist.

 

[Nierre]

bump

whats the consensus of this thread?

 

[SlendVeny]

Niji himself can move at lightspeed with no haki whatsoever

I mean, if we wanted to give him Haki, I would not oppose it.

 

[SlendVeny]

If this was in the reverse, that is, Luffy was FTL there and called the attack "too fast", it'll be used to make a speed downgrade immediately.

Yeah, and if another thing that is completely different happened and he said something different, we would have other thoughts.