Nrvnqsr and Roa (and Ciel I guess)

[Promestein]

Here we go. Suggested changes;

Nrvnqsr
Attack Potency: Wall level to Building level with minor beasts. At least Town level with normal beasts, higher as the 999th Beast. Possibly at least Mountain level with strongest beasts.

• Nrvnqsr being "At least High 8-C" without even a "likely higher" is inane. Average Dead Apostle Ancestors can fight on par with Servants (barring compatibility issues), and Nrvnsqr is definitely above average when it comes to Ancestors.
• Nrvnqsr is definitely an atypical Ancestor, but he should obviously still be capable of keeping up with Servants with the majority of his beasts.

• The Mountain level stats come from scaling unicorns to Pegasus.

Speed: At least Hypersonic+ combat speed. High Hypersonic attack speed with certain beasts / as the 999th Beast.

• Nrvnqsr doesn't move a lot, but he should still be able of keeping up with Servants to some degree.
• Of course, this is contradicted by Shiki being fast enough to catch him off guard while still being fodderized by Servants, so this is just a safe alternative. Then again, Nrvnqsr didn't take him seriously until too late, so who knows.

Durability: At least Building level. Continent level with Soil of Genesis (Stated to need firepower sufficient to obliterate a continent to destroy). The nature of his immortality and Regenerationn makes him almost impossible to kill.

• Nrvnqsr was cleaved in half by a weakened Arc, so his durability seems rather poor, but it doesn't matter when he has immortality like he does.
• Don't see why Soil of Genesis is regarded as a possible hyperbole. Nrvnqsr's entire thing is being absurdly difficult to kill. It's not like it'd matter that much in the verse given how things work.

Nrvnqsr doesn't look like a word anymore. Then again, it never looked like a word.

Roa
This is for Prime Roa. Ciel will be addressed next.

Attack Potency: At least Town level, likely higher.

• Prime Roa really is one of the strongest mages in the verse, and was so even before he became a Dead Apostle. Considering he beat Altrouge, this is pretty reasonable.

Speed: At least Hypersonic+ with High Hypersonic reactions.

• Logical scaling to Servants.

Durability: At least Town level, likely higher.

Ciel
Here's the fun part. I'm not super certain about any of this and it would be best to have discussion on whether or not this is reasonable.

Fate/Complete Material 3 states that members of the Burial Agency are capable of fighting on par with Servants. I don't think this is that absurd, given that they're also supposed to hunt down Dead Apostles. And besides, even if we disregard that, the fact that Ciel is capable of fighting even defensively against an average Servant means she should qualify for higher than Building level.

Attack Potency:

• (Base) At least Building level normally, likely higher. At least Town level with magic, likely higher.
  • Ciel can still use Roa's magic in base, she just chooses not to on account of CIS. Since she was connected to Roa when he still had a bit of Arcueid's power, she should actually be stronger than Powered Ciel in this regard.
  • Described as being able to fight defensively against Servants by Nasu, and later stated to be capable of fighting against them evenly in Fate/Complete Material 3. Who knows if this is with or without magic.
  • So, either 8-C normally and 7-C with magic or just flatout 7-C.
• (Powered) At least Town level, likely higher.
  • Superior to base, should be at least comparable to Roa before he became a Dead Apostle.

Speed:

• (Base) Hypersonic+ with High Hypersonic reactions
  • Logical scaling to Servants. Unchanged from her current page.
• (Powered) Hypersonic+ with High Hypersonic reactions

Durability:

• (Base) At least Building level. Higher with magic.
  • Dunno what to say here. Given that she's harmed by other people on this level, it seems contradictory to put her at Town level durability.
• (Powered Ciel) At least Town level, likely higher.

I'm too tired to list anything in-depth for Wallachia, but given that he could only manifest 30% of Arcueid's full power, I think "Up to At least City level" (or Mountain level, depending where 30% Arc ends up) with TATARI manifestations may be fine.

 

[Yamatohime]

Nrvnsqr Chaos posses superior reaction compared to Shiki's normal speed but Shiki managed to overwhelm him with Flashing Step (ability to break away from enemy vision via special movement pattern) in Manga and Flashing Sheath (ability to increase arm speed by special movements of arms) in VN.

Roa helped Nrvnsqr Chaos to develop Soil of Genesis. But he can't use it himself since he doesn't have Chaos body.

We should remember that casual Ciel wasn't able to defeat White Len though. So she can't be much stronger compared to White Len offensive and defensive abilites under Aoko as Master. Speed-wise Ciel is not really faster compared to Shiki and likely slower compared to Len.

 

[Promestein]

Acknowledged.

 

[Yamatohime]

Ciel can fight defensively but can't utilize her trump card - the Seven (it has too much wind up time). If she can get something from Burial Agency - she can sure fight Servants on even terms. El Nahat for example.

 

[Inoue211]

I don't really agree with Roa, well I do but more like I don't agree with the word "prime".

I personally think that the Town level/Likely higher(what you suggested) should be with Elesia's body and a new Key with Prime Roa should be left as Unknown, Higher. Then add a notation "with his original body and Arcueid's stolen power managed to defeat Altrouge Brunestud".

Roa even in Elesia's body still didn't have the power he had in life, it's only described as "being closer than the other bodies".

 

[Promestein]

That'd probably be reasonable.

 

[Inoue211]

Thanks.

Also I'll repeat what I said in the servant strenght thread yesterday since this is more appropriate, I'd like to upgrade Aoko Aozaki and Kouma Kishima based on them being able to fight a servant with an average Noble Phantasm. Gae Bolg is an average Noble Phantasm.

This would need the creation of a new Key for Aoko, adding her Melty Blood(older) version in order not to confuse it with Mahoyo.

So the upgrade is connected to how strong thrown Gae Bolg thrown is here which is taken to be City level if I remember correctly.

 

[Promestein]

I can't judge whether or not that would be appropriate.

Anyways, if people agree with that, that'd presumably apply to these guys in some regard.

 

[Inoue211]

Yeah just leaving it there since it's Melty Blood thread, I have something about Sacchin's speed that might upgrade her too by the way, should I post it?

 

[Promestein]

Go ahead, I guess.

 

[Inoue211]

Speedblitzing Shiki who was on guard against her, dunno if it's worth something though but might might as well post it.

 

[Promestein]

So... At least Hypersonic+ may be a good call for Satsuki. (And probably Dead Apostle Ancestors.)

 

[Inoue211]

The thing is that Shiki wasn't on full killer mode at that moment, he did intent to fight her but it was not the same as when he fought Nero(whom he hated and wanted to rip apart). So I guess this should be discussed.

About DAAs, well yeah they can fight servants so they should have around that.

 

[Yamatohime]

Even so Satsuki blitzed Shiki we should consider Shiki's psyhological state. He was demoralized. It means a lot for specialist who rely on syncro of mind and body to perform his moves.

P.S.: What we should do about TATARI/W.Len/DoO incarnation of Nrvnsqr Chaos? It was stated that Halogram Summer can replicate Chaos at full strenght.

 

[Promestein]

Wow it's been a while.

Anyways, no one seems to have had any problems with the non-speed related Nrvnqsr changes, so it'd probably be good to upgrade him, at least. Though, after reading Fate, I don't think he should be Mountain level with unicorns, as it was noted that Rider's Pegasus was of exceptionally high strength. A normal unicorn can't be scaled to it.

The other things still need to be discussed.

 

[Yamatohime]

At the same time Professor can lose to Len... Since it was stated that unrestricted Len with all her knowledge can beat Nrvnqsr incarnation under Halogram Summer.

 

[Inoue211]

Under Hologram Summer. And someone being able to beat another someone doesn't mean anything in T-M, you should know that by now. Len might have something that's able to counter Nero under the Hologram Summer


Also Len is a very powerful demon, the mere fact of making a contract with her will kill a magus. Shiki survives because he's quite literally a mutant, like Ciel.

 

[Yamatohime]

Under Hologram Summer majority of the cast posses the same strength as their originals. The major exeption is Warcuied (only 30% of Arcuied's power), Crimson Lord Akiha (who somehow stronger and at the same time in control), Miyako Arima, Hisui and Kohaku (who are boosted). Len posses superior mana supply (since she is moving as human).

The only facts that are known about Len: her creator could undo mind control of high level (even Arcuied can't resist that kind of mind control) and she is a century old Phantasmal Beast.

He was a specialist in hypnotism able to use his Reality Marble, which allowed for "memory remodeling", to manipulate the memories of everyone he encountered, including Arcueid Brunestud, with such precision to make them entirely forget his existence. The suggestions worked on the basis of "understanding", having told her "There is no Dead Apostle Einnashe", so Le's master was able to dive into Arcueid's subconscious to make the order impossible to recall, allowing the information on Einnashe to resurface.

 

[Promestein]

I'm just going to bump this ancient thread. Some new input would be appreciated.

 

[Cropfist]

Looks alright.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

They look reasonable enough to me, Prom.

 

[KamiYasha]

Seems fine, i don't see anything wrong with what you propose.

 

[Promestein]

Alright. Thank you.

I'd still like to get some more input before making any changes.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Looks okay to me.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

@Prom: Is this sufficient enough for you?

 

[Promestein]

Yeah. I'll go ahead and make the changes, then.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Alrighty. You can close this up once your done with them.

 

[Promestein]

This raises another question, on Roa's page.

Should SHIKI be 9-B or 8-C? I don't think he has an Building level feats.

 

[Promestein]

I'll leave the stats as they are for now, but

• Ciel and Shiki don't really have any Building level feats, and may have to be dropped down to 9-B through scaling

Weakened Arc fodderized minor Beasts, which caused tremors, though, so...? We could scale them to that, maybe?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I think maybe Kami or anyone familier with the series can answer that tho, Prom...

Though if they really don't have any Building level feats, then it's probably best to scale them down to what's the lowest they'd possibly land at...

 

[KamiYasha]

Eh...Prom, you mean Shiki Tohno, right?

If so, 9-B is fine. Due the fact that he is more hax (MEoDP) than raw power.

 

[Promestein]

I meant SHIKI, as in Roa's reincarnation, should have remembered to capitalize it.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Isn't Shiki with Roa's Soul (is that right?) already Wall level tho?

 

[NotEvenHuman]

SHIKI and Shiki are two different people. Yeah, it gets confusing.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Is there a profile of SHIKI, tho? It makes things A LOT easier for us here. And if you ask, no i can't find this "SHIKI" person

 

[Promestein]

The first key.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Yeah, i'm official blind on details like that. :|

Anyways i'm with Kami if SHIKI doesn't have any 8-C feats and just scale him down to 9-B.