Nicol Bolas (Magic the Gathering) vs Lavos (Chrono Trigger)

[Holyhotsauce]

bump.

 

[Phoenix821]

Lavos FRA

 

[DMUA]

We should still let Azzy say something.

 

[Holyhotsauce]

Yay.

Another win for my boy Lavy.

EDIT: Depends what Azzy has to say.

 

[Theglassman12]

Another win for my boy Lavy.

Boy???? I think you meant bug.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Also, Lavos is half female due to eating Schala...and may or may not be female in the first place due to having "children"

 

[Holyhotsauce]

I guess I must be killed for misgendering Lavy.

 

[DMUA]

From Azzy, from here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1521998#6

"Okay, so what stops them from just being continuously mindhaxed? Because doing that certainly isn't winning, but it stops Lavos from doing anything.

"Non-Existence Erasure" isn't a real thing, on its own. A verse has to describe it. If it negates Mid-Godly depends entirely on context."

 

[Schnee_One]

Bolas continuously Mind crushes every single Lavos repeatedly for years on end before Lavos finally gets his Hax off and kills Bolas or BFRs.

 

[DMUA]

I don't think BFR through time like Lavos does would work on Bolas.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Unless it's passive, Azzy's incorrect, due to the fact that Lavos will think and use its hax at the same time as Bolas.

 

[Schnee_One]

I see

Also apparently Fate doesn't think he can beg Mid Godly

Vote retracted

 

[Jinsye]

Pretty sure all votes except for one are now gone for Bolas.

Gargoyle, the destroyer of victories.

 

[Bluetrekking]

His death hax is portrayed as quite passive.

 

[DMUA]

Unless it's passive, Azzy's incorrect, due to the fact that Lavos will think and use its hax at the same time as Bolas.

Hmm.

Does non-existence erasure even bypass mid-godly in canon? Cause if it doesn't....

 

[Kaltias]

I see

Also apparently Fate doesn't think he can beg Mid Godly

Vote retracted

Are you referring to this? Because it's about base Lavos

 

[Holyhotsauce]

Lavos could absorb all his Magic (not just spells, Magic energy straight from the opponent if they have it, passively) making Lavos stronger throughout the entire match and making Bolas weaker.

Plus every time Bolas touches the damn thing it has a passive counter of draining the energy from the opponent who so much as touches it on top of the other passive absorption.

Remember that this Absorption is on every single duplicate of the infinite amount of Lavos

About the Non-Existence erasure, Fate said this: "Lavos, on the other hand, has Existence + Non-Existence added to whatever it does (they literally have a cutscene for when they nuked non-existence (the Res Nullius) using the power of a fragment of the thing )." in another thread, not sure if it gets past Mid-Godly tho.

EDIT: Ninja'd, hard.

Basically, Lavos negs his Immunities/resistances, then Lavos drains everything Bolas does and BFRs Bolas to the DBT.

Even better, Lavos negs Bolas resistances and Lavos uses his M I N D H A X on Bolas.

 

[Holyhotsauce]

What is the vote count?

 

[KinkiestSins]

Lavos should be at 8.

I just havent had time to request this to be added tbh.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

...Wait, this is the Time Devourer?

Because I'm 90% sure the TD doesn't have alternate timeline clones. It's a single entity that is a threat to all timelines.

It's been years since I've played Chrono Cross, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall that happening.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah...you're very wrong, my friend. Time Devourer is the one with the most blatant timeline clones, which is why the bad ending exists...

 

[Holyhotsauce]

Lavos should be at 8.
I just havent had time to request this to be added tbh.

I'll request it if you want.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Time Devourer being a Lavos =/= every Lavos clone being the Time Devourer. Its whole thing is being beyond time.

Hence why I'm asking where in the game he summons more Time Devourers. Because if he did I genuinely forgot about it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yes. He does. You don't use the CC on him, that's the thing that happens. That there's always another timeline where you didn't off the Time Devourer.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You mean when you just beat it normally without using the CC and it gets sucked into a vortex thing?

Because again, I don't remember it just summoning another Time Devourer. Could you show me this?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

U gotta go to Fate, mah boi. All you gotta know is that Fate will kill anyone who questions this bit of Lavos due to the amount of explaining that has to be done this is what's accepted.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

...But I want to know why it's accepted. Lavos' method of summoning clones is via alternate timeline versions of itself. The TD is beyond time, and if you beat it without the CC, it just kinda goes away with the implication that it'll eventually return and merge with Serge.

I don't remember TD using clones of itself, which is why I want to see that.

 

[KinkiestSins]

And azzy speaks

Cal debates.

You two plan on voting?

I am also unsure where the above came from btw, but it sounds reasonable. (I don't know that much about Lavos though.)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Azzy. Ask Fate. I do remember reading about there always being another TD that you didn't defeat though.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You two plan on voting?

Not unless it is confirmed/denied if TD summons other actual TD Lavos', as that's something I don't remember it doing. Again, it's been years and I'm not saying it can't, but I'm saying I very specifically don't remember this, even if you beat it down without the CC, which is why I just want a scene of it doing so.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Cal

I'm almost positive that's in relation to "always another Lavos with the potential to become the Time Devourer" as opposed to "infinite Time Devourers exist all at once", but I'll double check.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Check Fate's blogs + w/ Fate.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Cal can you at least try to explain it yourself and not just keep going "Go ask Fate/Check Fate's blogs"?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

>check with Fate

>Fate had himself banned for three months

*******--

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I haven't even PLAYED Chrono Cross, man. Hell, before Fate, I thought Lavos was like, sub-Yukari in base.

 

[The_Everlasting]

If it helps for info checking Also shamelessly promoting the quality that is The Dark Id

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

For context, here's one of the reasons I explicitly don't remember TD being able to summon other TDs; the bad ending itself.

Instead of using the Chrono Cross on the Time Devourer, Serge goes "Eh, **** it" and just beats it up. The Time Devourer then proceeds to get sucked into a thing. Everyone kinda goes, "...huh." and then the game ends. Yes, this is literally all that happens.

There is implication that at some point, this Time Devouer will either return or another one will be created, and it will merge with Serge, reaching full power and being able to destroy all of space-time.

It does not seem like there would have been any sort of mysterious wait if there were infinite Time Devourers that could be summoned at any second, which is why I'm asking if this happened at some other point in the game.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have to sorta agree with Azzy's logic here, even if I do trust Fate (Moreso than Cal) when it comes to Chrono Trigger.

Also, Azzy, wall ovo

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Iirc, the Ultimania explains more.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Iirc, the Ultimania explains more.

Yes, the Ultimania is what says that Time Devourer will eventually merge with Serge after the bad ending.

Otherwise there's just kind of nothing.

I don't believe it specifies how or when, though.