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New Star Trek revisions
- Thread starter Aeyu
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- Thread starter
- #42
@Azzy
Well, I can get quotes for both the dimensionless thing and the infinite dimensions thing.
On Nagilum (This only sounds like Possibly 1-A to me)
DATA: Difficult to make a judgment, sir, based on the absence of information.
PICARD: Speculate.
DATA: This void has a total lack of dimension. Therefore, by any accepted standard, it does not exist, yet being within it denies that conclusion.
RIKER: Might we have moved into another dimension?
DATA: Could a lack of dimension be another dimension in itself?
Informationless, dimensionless voids outside the multiverse, which already likely has countless/possible infinite dimensions within it makes the rating sound, to me at least, like a possible thing.
On infinite dimensions (This mostly stacks with the infinite subspace domains and "limitless dimensions" comment)
PICARD: You said there were only two of you left. What happened to the rest of the crew?
JENICE: They were working in the second lab. Something happened there a few weeks ago. They were all killed. It was a terrible accident. I don't know exactly what happened. So many brilliant, wonderful minds, just gone.
DATA: Do you know the nature of Doctor Manheim's work?
JENICE: Paul's always been interested in time. He's never believed that it was immutable, any more than space is immutable. Over the last decade, he came to believe that we reside in one of infinite dimensions, and what holds us here is the constancy of time. Change that and it would be what he called opening the window to those other dimensions
An entry into another temporal dimension caused time in the regular 3+1 dimensional universe to distort:
DATA: Oh, we are us, sir, but they are also us. So indeed, we are both us at different points along the same time continuum. (Time continuum being used in Trek to describe temporal dimensions)
Picard tells Worf the direness of their situation, and how the nature of their reality will be changed if this new temporal dimension interacts with their own:
PICARD: We have to. If we don't seal that hole, this other dimension he's opened will rip into the fabric of the galaxy. Reality as we perceive it will not be the same. Lieutenant Worf.
The effects become more profound as a door is opened into another temporal dimension:
DATA 3: Captain, there appear to be three of us.
DATA 1: Should I drop the antimatter or wait for one of you?
DATA 3: Only one of us is at the correct time continuum.
DATA 1: Which one?
DATA 2: Me. It's me.
Later, when Mannheim experiences one of these other dimensions, he describes it thusly, implying it's not just a parallel universe:
MANHEIM: I feel like I'm coming out of a long tunnel. It's there. Not at all like I thought it would be. Different.
JENICE: Describe it.
MANHEIM: I can't, not yet. The only words that fit are too pale because the images are so vibrant. It's not like anything anyone has ever experienced before. There was, no, no, there is this kind of life. Not like us. Not like this. What's the condition of my lab?
Well, I can get quotes for both the dimensionless thing and the infinite dimensions thing.
On Nagilum (This only sounds like Possibly 1-A to me)
DATA: Difficult to make a judgment, sir, based on the absence of information.
PICARD: Speculate.
DATA: This void has a total lack of dimension. Therefore, by any accepted standard, it does not exist, yet being within it denies that conclusion.
RIKER: Might we have moved into another dimension?
DATA: Could a lack of dimension be another dimension in itself?
Informationless, dimensionless voids outside the multiverse, which already likely has countless/possible infinite dimensions within it makes the rating sound, to me at least, like a possible thing.
On infinite dimensions (This mostly stacks with the infinite subspace domains and "limitless dimensions" comment)
PICARD: You said there were only two of you left. What happened to the rest of the crew?
JENICE: They were working in the second lab. Something happened there a few weeks ago. They were all killed. It was a terrible accident. I don't know exactly what happened. So many brilliant, wonderful minds, just gone.
DATA: Do you know the nature of Doctor Manheim's work?
JENICE: Paul's always been interested in time. He's never believed that it was immutable, any more than space is immutable. Over the last decade, he came to believe that we reside in one of infinite dimensions, and what holds us here is the constancy of time. Change that and it would be what he called opening the window to those other dimensions
An entry into another temporal dimension caused time in the regular 3+1 dimensional universe to distort:
DATA: Oh, we are us, sir, but they are also us. So indeed, we are both us at different points along the same time continuum. (Time continuum being used in Trek to describe temporal dimensions)
Picard tells Worf the direness of their situation, and how the nature of their reality will be changed if this new temporal dimension interacts with their own:
PICARD: We have to. If we don't seal that hole, this other dimension he's opened will rip into the fabric of the galaxy. Reality as we perceive it will not be the same. Lieutenant Worf.
The effects become more profound as a door is opened into another temporal dimension:
DATA 3: Captain, there appear to be three of us.
DATA 1: Should I drop the antimatter or wait for one of you?
DATA 3: Only one of us is at the correct time continuum.
DATA 1: Which one?
DATA 2: Me. It's me.
Later, when Mannheim experiences one of these other dimensions, he describes it thusly, implying it's not just a parallel universe:
MANHEIM: I feel like I'm coming out of a long tunnel. It's there. Not at all like I thought it would be. Different.
JENICE: Describe it.
MANHEIM: I can't, not yet. The only words that fit are too pale because the images are so vibrant. It's not like anything anyone has ever experienced before. There was, no, no, there is this kind of life. Not like us. Not like this. What's the condition of my lab?
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On Nagilum:
Lack of dimension on its ow is not enough. In this case, we just learn that the void does not exist in conventional means. We really can't perform such massive upgrades if the character doesn't have more to it than a single appearance where we learn very little about it, based solely on the fact that Data stated it to have a "total lack of dimension" (which also just means "it has no conventional size").
On infinite temporal dimensions:
"Over the last decade, he came to believe that we reside in one of infinite dimensions, and what holds us here is the constancy of time. Change that and it would be what he called opening the window to those other dimensions"
^This statement is 100% referring to alternate timelines/parallel dimensions with how it's phrased, not higher dimensions. It's rare for Star Trek to do this, but it's the case, here.
"I can't, not yet. The only words that fit are too pale because the images are so vibrant. It's not like anything anyone has ever experienced before. There was, no, no, there is this kind of life. Not like us. Not like this. What's the condition of my lab?"
This is Manheim's description of the other dimension. It's vastly different, but that does not make it something other than a different universe. He even makes it clear that his mind is stuck between two places. This, along with the way "dimension" is used at every other point in the episode, just suggests an endless number of parallel worlds, not higher-dimensions. I don't think we can use this for High 1-B.
Lack of dimension on its ow is not enough. In this case, we just learn that the void does not exist in conventional means. We really can't perform such massive upgrades if the character doesn't have more to it than a single appearance where we learn very little about it, based solely on the fact that Data stated it to have a "total lack of dimension" (which also just means "it has no conventional size").
On infinite temporal dimensions:
"Over the last decade, he came to believe that we reside in one of infinite dimensions, and what holds us here is the constancy of time. Change that and it would be what he called opening the window to those other dimensions"
^This statement is 100% referring to alternate timelines/parallel dimensions with how it's phrased, not higher dimensions. It's rare for Star Trek to do this, but it's the case, here.
"I can't, not yet. The only words that fit are too pale because the images are so vibrant. It's not like anything anyone has ever experienced before. There was, no, no, there is this kind of life. Not like us. Not like this. What's the condition of my lab?"
This is Manheim's description of the other dimension. It's vastly different, but that does not make it something other than a different universe. He even makes it clear that his mind is stuck between two places. This, along with the way "dimension" is used at every other point in the episode, just suggests an endless number of parallel worlds, not higher-dimensions. I don't think we can use this for High 1-B.
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@Azzy
The thing is, it's a weird case. Why would they have used "time continuum" if they not talking about temporal dimensions? This is why I was advocating the "possibly". This only rides on the backs of the two other instances where infinite dimensions are a possibility: infinite subspace domains, of which there are confirmed to be higher layers and higher-order domains, which are directly tied to the existence of higher dimensions, and the "limitless" comment.
The thing is, it's a weird case. Why would they have used "time continuum" if they not talking about temporal dimensions? This is why I was advocating the "possibly". This only rides on the backs of the two other instances where infinite dimensions are a possibility: infinite subspace domains, of which there are confirmed to be higher layers and higher-order domains, which are directly tied to the existence of higher dimensions, and the "limitless" comment.
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@Aeyu
The same reason many other franchises often use stuff like "world" and "universe" simultaneously. To keep dialogue from getting stale.
Where is the confirmation for infinitely higher subspace domains and not just infinite subspace domains?
The same reason many other franchises often use stuff like "world" and "universe" simultaneously. To keep dialogue from getting stale.
Where is the confirmation for infinitely higher subspace domains and not just infinite subspace domains?
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Well, there are higher-order domains and layers of subspace both.
Voyager interacted with these layers when interacting with at least three different kinds of higher-dimensional beings, and the official Star Trek encyclopedia defines "hyper-subspace" as a higher-order subspace domain.
Voyager interacted with these layers when interacting with at least three different kinds of higher-dimensional beings, and the official Star Trek encyclopedia defines "hyper-subspace" as a higher-order subspace domain.
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Yes, but what says that these ascend infinitely?
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Nothing specifically, but if there are infinite domains, with definite higher and lower-order domains and layers, it does seem to hint at a possibly.
Nevertheless, I found something far more compelling:
Omega molecules destroy subspace, and they are defined thusly:
JANEWAY: Omega destroys subspace. A chain reaction involving a handful of molecules could devastate subspace throughout an entire Quadrant. If that were to happen, warp travel would become impossible. Space-faring civilisation as we know it would cease to exist. When Starfleet realised Omega's power, they suppressed all knowledge of it.
SEVEN: Omega is infinitely complex, yet harmonious. To the Borg it represents perfection. I wish to understand that perfection.
JANEWAY: Omega caused quite a stir among my own species. Federation cosmologists had a theory that the molecule once existed in nature for an infinitesimal period of time at the exact moment of the Big Bang. Some claimed Omega was the primal source of energy for the explosion that began our universe.
SEVEN: Particle zero one zero. The Borg designation for what you call Omega. Every Drone is aware of its existence. We were instructed to assimilate it at all costs. It is perfection. The molecules exist in a flawless state. Infinite parts functioning as one.
The Q are capable of synthesizing and creating these particles, and show no fear at their detonation:
JANEWAY: Say hello to Q, everyone.
JUNIOR: We could fly into fluidic space and fight species 8472. Or we could detonate a few Omega molecules. What do you say?
JANEWAY: No.
Nevertheless, I found something far more compelling:
Omega molecules destroy subspace, and they are defined thusly:
JANEWAY: Omega destroys subspace. A chain reaction involving a handful of molecules could devastate subspace throughout an entire Quadrant. If that were to happen, warp travel would become impossible. Space-faring civilisation as we know it would cease to exist. When Starfleet realised Omega's power, they suppressed all knowledge of it.
SEVEN: Omega is infinitely complex, yet harmonious. To the Borg it represents perfection. I wish to understand that perfection.
JANEWAY: Omega caused quite a stir among my own species. Federation cosmologists had a theory that the molecule once existed in nature for an infinitesimal period of time at the exact moment of the Big Bang. Some claimed Omega was the primal source of energy for the explosion that began our universe.
SEVEN: Particle zero one zero. The Borg designation for what you call Omega. Every Drone is aware of its existence. We were instructed to assimilate it at all costs. It is perfection. The molecules exist in a flawless state. Infinite parts functioning as one.
The Q are capable of synthesizing and creating these particles, and show no fear at their detonation:
JANEWAY: Say hello to Q, everyone.
JUNIOR: We could fly into fluidic space and fight species 8472. Or we could detonate a few Omega molecules. What do you say?
JANEWAY: No.
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My take too.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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since parallel universal travel is a common thing in the verse, only manheim's experience was uniquely described as indescribable and profound to only ascribe it as like all the other out-of-universe travel (and he is one of the smartest minds in the federation, enough to be labeled as insane and ostracised) not only that but his actions was ******* up all of time where all the other instances did not. and if manheim wanted to simply go to another universe it would've been easier to go through the creation point or numerous other subspace phenomena.
oh and there's also this:
Q: After Farpoint, I returned to where we exist. The Q Continuum.
RIKER: Which means exactly what?
Q: The limitless dimensions of the galaxy in which we exist.
RIKER: I don't understand.
Q: Of course you don't, and you never will until you become one of us.
RIKER: Until? Would you mind going over that again?
Q: Well if you'll stop interrupting me. This is hardly a time to be teaching you the true nature of the universe. However, at Farpoint we saw you as savages only. We discovered instead that you are unusual creatures in your own limited ways. Ways which in time will not be so limited.
remember that barcalay who was enhanced by advanced aliens to have supergenius intelligence only went as far as figuring out up to 26 dimensions
oh and there's also this:
Q: After Farpoint, I returned to where we exist. The Q Continuum.
RIKER: Which means exactly what?
Q: The limitless dimensions of the galaxy in which we exist.
RIKER: I don't understand.
Q: Of course you don't, and you never will until you become one of us.
RIKER: Until? Would you mind going over that again?
Q: Well if you'll stop interrupting me. This is hardly a time to be teaching you the true nature of the universe. However, at Farpoint we saw you as savages only. We discovered instead that you are unusual creatures in your own limited ways. Ways which in time will not be so limited.
remember that barcalay who was enhanced by advanced aliens to have supergenius intelligence only went as far as figuring out up to 26 dimensions
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Except, again, going to another, drastically different universe does not mean it is higher-dimensional. You need better evidence he's referring to higher-dimensional time, which is in itself not a plane of existence, and not a "place" Manheim would go, which is what he repeatedly mentions doing throughout the episode..
"The limitless dimensions of the galaxy in which we exist."
Comparable to the dime-a-dozen "infinite dimensions" 40k quotes we got before more explicit confirmation, which was what was needed to actually perform any upgrades. We cannot perform massive updates based on one-off quotes that the character refuses to elaborate on.
"The limitless dimensions of the galaxy in which we exist."
Comparable to the dime-a-dozen "infinite dimensions" 40k quotes we got before more explicit confirmation, which was what was needed to actually perform any upgrades. We cannot perform massive updates based on one-off quotes that the character refuses to elaborate on.
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Bump. I do wish we could get some sort of comment on the Omega Molecule, as I think that could define a possibly High 1-B tier much more readily.
Omega molecules destroy subspace, are infinitely complex, and they are defined thusly:
JANEWAY: Omega destroys subspace. A chain reaction involving a handful of molecules could devastate subspace throughout an entire Quadrant. If that were to happen, warp travel would become impossible. Space-faring civilisation as we know it would cease to exist. When Starfleet realised Omega's power, they suppressed all knowledge of it.
SEVEN: Omega is infinitely complex, yet harmonious. To the Borg it represents perfection. I wish to understand that perfection.
JANEWAY: Omega caused quite a stir among my own species. Federation cosmologists had a theory that the molecule once existed in nature for an infinitesimal period of time at the exact moment of the Big Bang. Some claimed Omega was the primal source of energy for the explosion that began our universe.
SEVEN: Particle zero one zero. The Borg designation for what you call Omega. Every Drone is aware of its existence. We were instructed to assimilate it at all costs. It is perfection. The molecules exist in a flawless state. Infinite parts functioning as one.
The Q are capable of synthesizing and creating these particles, and show no fear at their detonation:
JANEWAY: Say hello to Q, everyone.
JUNIOR: We could fly into fluidic space and fight species 8472. Or we could detonate a few Omega molecules. What do you say?
JANEWAY: No.
Omega molecules destroy subspace, are infinitely complex, and they are defined thusly:
JANEWAY: Omega destroys subspace. A chain reaction involving a handful of molecules could devastate subspace throughout an entire Quadrant. If that were to happen, warp travel would become impossible. Space-faring civilisation as we know it would cease to exist. When Starfleet realised Omega's power, they suppressed all knowledge of it.
SEVEN: Omega is infinitely complex, yet harmonious. To the Borg it represents perfection. I wish to understand that perfection.
JANEWAY: Omega caused quite a stir among my own species. Federation cosmologists had a theory that the molecule once existed in nature for an infinitesimal period of time at the exact moment of the Big Bang. Some claimed Omega was the primal source of energy for the explosion that began our universe.
SEVEN: Particle zero one zero. The Borg designation for what you call Omega. Every Drone is aware of its existence. We were instructed to assimilate it at all costs. It is perfection. The molecules exist in a flawless state. Infinite parts functioning as one.
The Q are capable of synthesizing and creating these particles, and show no fear at their detonation:
JANEWAY: Say hello to Q, everyone.
JUNIOR: We could fly into fluidic space and fight species 8472. Or we could detonate a few Omega molecules. What do you say?
JANEWAY: No.
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@Aeyu - After further thought, I agree with your edits. The description of what nadions do is technically non-canon (which I must concede as the TNGTM is non-canon) - as I don't believe they ever stated what it does in script. I personally believe that it is how it works b/c of the visual effects of phaser (eg. harmless disapearance of matter and same effect regardless of mass of target) not matching up with pure energy weaponry, but that's a scientific hypothesis (there are examples of similar weapons in the verse that explicity do this though - see the planet killer) - so I'd actually have to agree with the edit based on site rules. The hand phaser calcs are fine; I agree with them.
I must say that for starship-grade phasers 5-B for the Original Enterprise should not be used though b/c it does not specify in "A Taste for Armageddon" whether it means death star like destruction (5B) or simply eradication of all surface life (like how we refer to nukes); also the later and far more advanced Enterprise D required routing all its power to graviton generation (deflector shielding system) to perform it's 5-B neutron star redirection feat. Also, see the Die is Cast where it took a barrage from 15 original series level warships to vaporize 30% of the planetary crust. I'd say 6-B for the original series is the best b/c of this. Also, this is a great example of how the Trek Durability isn't actually that low and can go up to 5B b/c graviton deflection works against kinetic energy just as well as other stuff so yeah that's even more support for taking out phaser conditional durability.
Also, I agree with your edit for Omega Molecule, based on the fact that we upgraded the Q for the same reasoning.
I must say that for starship-grade phasers 5-B for the Original Enterprise should not be used though b/c it does not specify in "A Taste for Armageddon" whether it means death star like destruction (5B) or simply eradication of all surface life (like how we refer to nukes); also the later and far more advanced Enterprise D required routing all its power to graviton generation (deflector shielding system) to perform it's 5-B neutron star redirection feat. Also, see the Die is Cast where it took a barrage from 15 original series level warships to vaporize 30% of the planetary crust. I'd say 6-B for the original series is the best b/c of this. Also, this is a great example of how the Trek Durability isn't actually that low and can go up to 5B b/c graviton deflection works against kinetic energy just as well as other stuff so yeah that's even more support for taking out phaser conditional durability.
Also, I agree with your edit for Omega Molecule, based on the fact that we upgraded the Q for the same reasoning.
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@Xing
Even destroying the planet's surface would be enough for High 6-A, though, especially since the planet is comparable in size to Earth. Either way, that would just set its high-end to High 6-A to possibly 5-B with the Fire Control System (I don't think we should necessarily ignore the possibility that it meant a total destruction of the planet; it doesn't *need* to be like the Death Star's pulverization, which is actually 5-A and not 5-B).
Also, I'm not sure if the neutron star being redirected should necessarily be so low. Neutron stars tend to have a larger solar mass than normal stars.
Finally, the Omega Molecule thing is just another (and perhpas most compelling) thing that helps to corroborate a possibly High 1-B, the other things being infinite subspace domains (Which exist in a myriad of layers), and the statement about "limitless dimensions". Omega Molecules destroy the fabric of subspace itself and are infinitely complex with infinite parts, having created the Big Bang. The Q, existing outside of the multiverse, can easily materialize these particles and control them at will.
Even destroying the planet's surface would be enough for High 6-A, though, especially since the planet is comparable in size to Earth. Either way, that would just set its high-end to High 6-A to possibly 5-B with the Fire Control System (I don't think we should necessarily ignore the possibility that it meant a total destruction of the planet; it doesn't *need* to be like the Death Star's pulverization, which is actually 5-A and not 5-B).
Also, I'm not sure if the neutron star being redirected should necessarily be so low. Neutron stars tend to have a larger solar mass than normal stars.
Finally, the Omega Molecule thing is just another (and perhpas most compelling) thing that helps to corroborate a possibly High 1-B, the other things being infinite subspace domains (Which exist in a myriad of layers), and the statement about "limitless dimensions". Omega Molecules destroy the fabric of subspace itself and are infinitely complex with infinite parts, having created the Big Bang. The Q, existing outside of the multiverse, can easily materialize these particles and control them at will.
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I'm fine with the weapon upgrades and personally I'm fine with possibly 1-A Nagilum.
Tier 6~5 for the ships seems fine too.
I don't have anything against High 1-B Omega Molecules either.
Tier 6~5 for the ships seems fine too.
I don't have anything against High 1-B Omega Molecules either.
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Destroying a planet's surface is sometimes even 5-A.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kepekley23/MCU:_Worrisome_Worldwide_Wipe
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kepekley23/MCU:_Worrisome_Worldwide_Wipe
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As far as TOS phasers, in The Cage, the standard issue hand laser (phasers weren't in use yet) was seen blasting through a considerable thickness of rock. In A Piece of the Actio it's stated that the Phaser One (the smallest available hand phaser, about the size of a pack of cards) can "knock out the side of a building" when fired from inside. In The Enemy Withi we see a Type Two hand phaser heat rock to 8,000 degrees C, and in The Galileo Seve the power packs of several Type Twos were actually drained into a shuttlecraft's engines to enable it to take off and make orbit. I'd say that puts smaller TOS era hand phasers at roughly 8-C/High 8-C. The TOS phaser rifle may be as high as Low 7-C, but due to how little it was used I can't confirm that.
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On a similar subject, I've created a thread regarding the AP's for Star Trek's starships: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1692385
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@Idazmi
Not really. Star Trek vaporization with phasers has the wierd effect of not having any of the other effects of vaporization. Actually, the only reason we say they vaporize is b/c it's stated in the script.
Also, even if it did have the massive shockwaves and earthquakes that wouldn't be included in the AP b/c that's a range/side effect factor instead. It's like how nukes aren't as effective in space b/c there's no atmosphere. The energy is the same but b/c there's no atmosphere there's no shockwave. The energy directly from the phasers is the actual AP, which is the amount it can vaporize.
Not really. Star Trek vaporization with phasers has the wierd effect of not having any of the other effects of vaporization. Actually, the only reason we say they vaporize is b/c it's stated in the script.
Also, even if it did have the massive shockwaves and earthquakes that wouldn't be included in the AP b/c that's a range/side effect factor instead. It's like how nukes aren't as effective in space b/c there's no atmosphere. The energy is the same but b/c there's no atmosphere there's no shockwave. The energy directly from the phasers is the actual AP, which is the amount it can vaporize.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du4k-Gl9aBY - This is the scene in question. Notice the massive shockwaves. You saw this scene, didn't you? Or did you just read the script and make an assumption?XING06 said:
Then you are referring to conservation of energy: energy disperses upon impact and transfers into any nearby medium. Well, the scene in question matches that fact of thermodynamics by showing a total lack of shockwaves in space in the battle immediately afterwards: the fact remains that they are the same weapons that did the damage to the planet in the earlier scene, and all of that energy - shockwaves included - came directly from the energy output of those weapons, not as a product of any unrelated AoE effect. That's easily firepower between High 6-B and 6-A for both phasers and photon torpedoes, and armor durability of High 6-A for the Warbirds, absolute minimum.XING06 said:
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Honestly speaking its the fact that the phaser has an AOE effect in the way of shockwaves that bothers me at all. Hand phasers have never generated that sort of effect even at yields where they should. Even ship grade phasers don't do that most of the time (see when the Enterprise-D tunnels through the rock surface in Legacy, easily a 7B feat if we go by vaporization but the effects are entirely contained to the shaft with no side effects or steam). This is why I believe in the diruption theory which we know is a setting on phasers.
Seriously though I admit that that's conjecture (no canon source directly states it - just implies it a lot and it can be supported by a lot of what we see), so I actually have no issues with scaling at High 6-B to 6-A for phasers and torpedoes based on site rules. I'm just bringing up consistency and detail issues, which I believe imply otherwise, in a devil's advocate role b/c most everyone seems to be in agreement.
Seriously though I admit that that's conjecture (no canon source directly states it - just implies it a lot and it can be supported by a lot of what we see), so I actually have no issues with scaling at High 6-B to 6-A for phasers and torpedoes based on site rules. I'm just bringing up consistency and detail issues, which I believe imply otherwise, in a devil's advocate role b/c most everyone seems to be in agreement.
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From the script of Legacy:XING06 said:
GEORDI LAFORGE: "Not necessarily. We could use the ship's phasers to cut a shaft through the bedrock to this storage tunnel here. With a clear path through the rock, we'd be able to transport through the tunnel. That would put us close enough to get to the crewmen. But I'll need two hours to refit the ship's phasers for drilling."
Which means phasers - being tactical weapons - are NOT normally fit for drilling. Here's some visual references to prove that:
Starship Weapon Effects
https://media.giphy.com/media/13D1aaaTiI1tXa/giphy.gif <- Enterprise-D firing on an unprotected Borg Cube. Notice the explosions and shallow craters each shot generates: those shots won't be drilling any tunnels.
https://78.media.tumblr.com/05354a88964d7ba9e2ce562e4dffe21a/tumblr_n389rvMXTG1rzu2xzo4_r1_400.gif <- In the Mutara Nebula, the Enterprise fires a photon torpedo at the starship Reliant, followed by a phaser strike. Purely physical weapon effects follow both shots, including fragmentation.
https://78.media.tumblr.com/32df0bb85d73f56eed5bb958317898f3/tumblr_n389rvMXTG1rzu2xzo5_r1_400.gif <- Another torpedo strike from the same battle.
https://78.media.tumblr.com/76eff550684435f36067eb6c5075a4a4/tumblr_n389rvMXTG1rzu2xzo6_r1_400.gif <- The condition of the Reliant after those impacts.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f8/c1/42/f8c1422fbd21cac4259d073d16b9a896.gif <- A phase canon (predecessor to phaser) blowing a ship in half.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e3/fe/29/e3fe298e96f4c231ddba3db531266709.gif <- A Klingon fleet under phaser and torpedo fire: the ship on the left gets blown to pieces.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Lwnfly1Q...Ev_yvCY1NAsCxDQCLcB/s1600/Star_Trek_6_46b.gif <- Klingon Bird of Prey destroyed by torpedoes: same as before, purely physical weapon effects follow.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-K4yUHn5rR...iE/s320/tumblr_lom30s1ZD51qj6sk2o1_r1_250.gif <- Voyager fores torpedoes at the Equinox: same as before, purely physical weapon effects follow.
https://78.media.tumblr.com/81122b192ad1e6a87c33b23e7c74a375/tumblr_mpedcg4cpE1rzu2xzo1_r1_400.gif <- During the Dominion Wars, two ships get blown apart: same as above. In fact, the ships are physically tossed aside by the impacts.
Hand Weapon Effects
http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/18300000/Odo-Gifs-odo-18331000-300-225.gif <- That's Odo literally exploding from hand phaser fire.
https://i.imgur.com/lCpyk8t.gif <- Lieutenant Remmick also explodes from phaser fire, and quite graphically.
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x00hd/thecagehd0651.jpg <- From TOS, a hand phaser fired against a stone barricade.
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x00hd/thecagehd1162.jpg <- Same episode: a much larger phaser fired against a seemingly unbreakable door.
https://i2.wp.com/www.tor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/st-trap17.jpg?resize=740,555&type=vertical <- From TOS, a hand phaser shooting a stone pillar.
The explosions and fragmentation are coming from Direct Energy Transfer, not some esoteric nadion particle technobabble. I can provide more references if necessary, but I don't think it should be necessary after this. I don't know where you got the idea that phasers "never" generate area of effect damage, but I could certainly hazard an educated guess (at the risk of being accused a Genetic Fallacy). In any case, I'd suggest you disregard whatever source told you that. It's certainly wasn't Star Trek itself that told you that.
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Phasers have seperate settings, and the most commonly demonstrated type is where matter literally disappears in a flash (not direct energy transfer). There's also the heating settings and the one where rocks can be fragmented, which now that I actually think about it is probably what happens in the Die is Cast. I'm not saying they never generate AOE damage, I'm saying it's strange b/c the highest kill settings demonstrated by hand phasers generally don't. Still, I suppose they could simply set it for AOE so yeah you're right it makes sense. My bad. Thanks for the references though.
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Q makes it very clear that the continuum encompass limitless dimensions from what I remember. The "layers of subspace" are dimensions which have been described as "infinite" a number of times.
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Since you know those are the highest kill settings, I want you to look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VsRvLpQpFc <- Notice: in the same exchange of fire, the Klingon gets both explosive effects and "disappearance in a flash of light" from the same phaser, and the explosive effect is far bigger than the "disappearance". I would suggest that the effect we're seeing is direct energy transfer: a more powerful blast - sufficient to obliterate the target entirely - but confined to a single area to prevent splash damage from accidentally killing the user. Logically, that would cost more energy to fire, since it destroys the entire target while expending even more energy to contain the blast. The usual explanation of some "perpetuating chain reaction" doesn't explain how the attack stays contained to a single target without spreading any farther, which it never does.XING06 said:
We've only seen a starship use this effect ONCE: https://youtu.be/yQcg7Y1gZtA?t=204 It seems to take awhile, easily explaining why it is never used in battle.
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After the New Era started each Q did everything possible at every time and space. Thus the lines between each Q were blurred hence a "continuum". When Q bore a son he did something entirely outside of the parameters of the infinite dimensioned multiverse, opening the Continuum to new horizons.. Would this be 1-A?
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also, if its not included already some things can be added to Q:
Mathematics Manipulation (doubles up with the dimensional, probability and physics manipulation thing)
Cloth Manipulation
Animal Manipulation (turned crusher into a dog, creating and summoning animals)
Plant Manipulation
Smoke Manipulation
Body Control (sealed neelix's mouth and removed his vocal cords)
Stealth Mastery
Morality Manipulation and Possession (as talked about in previous thread)
Holy Manipulation (can emulate the divine when he appeared before picard in tapestry)
Smite (now i can see prophet q does this as he One Hit Kill the pah wraiths)
Mathematics Manipulation (doubles up with the dimensional, probability and physics manipulation thing)
Cloth Manipulation
Animal Manipulation (turned crusher into a dog, creating and summoning animals)
Plant Manipulation
Smoke Manipulation
Body Control (sealed neelix's mouth and removed his vocal cords)
Stealth Mastery
Morality Manipulation and Possession (as talked about in previous thread)
Holy Manipulation (can emulate the divine when he appeared before picard in tapestry)
Smite (now i can see prophet q does this as he One Hit Kill the pah wraiths)
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@Doc
I think the best chance Q has at reaching 1-A is if I, with the help of others, make his non-canon profile, because while he does indeed transcend all time and space, it's not necessarily on a conceptual level (From what I know with current information). However, in the licensed-but-non-canon (similar to Disney's treatment of Legends), in particular within the books, the individual Q is stated to have created a realm which transcends the concepts of space and time on a fundamental level (The Nexus), which could put him at that level. In addition, he reaches the level of 0, a being outside of conceptualization, by fusing with the Calamarain to become "infinitely above all infinities", iirc.
I think the best chance Q has at reaching 1-A is if I, with the help of others, make his non-canon profile, because while he does indeed transcend all time and space, it's not necessarily on a conceptual level (From what I know with current information). However, in the licensed-but-non-canon (similar to Disney's treatment of Legends), in particular within the books, the individual Q is stated to have created a realm which transcends the concepts of space and time on a fundamental level (The Nexus), which could put him at that level. In addition, he reaches the level of 0, a being outside of conceptualization, by fusing with the Calamarain to become "infinitely above all infinities", iirc.
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doesnt the q also have type 8 immortality (dependent on and supported by the continuum) but yea when are we gonna conclude this
not to mention the context behind the galactic barrier elaborated in the books which was there to keep 0 out. nonetheless, q on here should be Innerverse level (transcends time and space)
not to mention the context behind the galactic barrier elaborated in the books which was there to keep 0 out. nonetheless, q on here should be Innerverse level (transcends time and space)
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I think you mean Outerverse level with that last part, unless for whatever reason you are suggesting a sort of Low 1-A tier named Innerverse level.Crzer07 said:
@Aeyu
I do firmly believe that the Omega Molecules should be High 1-B, and of course the Q should scale since they can create such particles.
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Q creating a realm that transcend the concepts of time and space is 1-A.... Not just a higher order of High 1-B. For the High 1-B Omega Particles... It would scale to Q... But who else ?
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