New Profile For Undertale's Human Race

[RinneItachi]

So, since the old version of this thread died off without ever gaining enough traction, I'll just go agane bois. I'm also suggesting this as a civilization page, not a standard page, of course.

At the very start of the game, it's stated outright that the humans used magic to create the Barrier, a magical construct so powerful it required a godlike being with the power of 7 human souls to destroy. The most common argument that goes against this is that a book in Snowdin's library stated human's cannot express themselves via magic. However, "using" and "expressing through" are not the same thing. Literally in the next dialogue box it goes on to say that they'll never get a bullet-pattern birthday card. This very likely means that humans simply can't use danmaku, or at least, not danmaku of the same nature. It's worth noting that the Barrier is consistently and commonly referred to as a spell, which could further imply that humans specifically used spells, and that Monster's use a different form of magic. Furthermore, the Barrier is literally the main obstacle of the Monster's to overcome. It's the entire reason they're Underground to begin with, and it's one of the main plot points in the game. There's even also a Waterfall tablet that reaffirms the Barrier was created specifically by 7 of their greatest magicians, meaning that human magicians were not uncommon, and that the one's who made the Barrier were simply at a far higher level than most of them. So human's have magic.

Moving on from that, I'll go over how they scale above Monster's.

To begin with, another tablet in Waterfall states that the power of every Monster soul is equivalent to the power of a single Human soul. This is blatant foreshadowing, as, when Asriel absorbed the soul of every Monster in the Underground after absorbing the previous 6 human souls, that was enough to give him the power of 7, confirming that the tablet was indeed right. The amount of Monster's in the Underground is vague, but if we use Mettaton's fight as an example, there could be well over 10,000. But at the very least, even if we only use the Monster's you kill on Genocide, there'd still be a bare minimum of over 100 Monster's in the Underground, but we can guess there's far more based on implications and counting the other seen Monster's that we don't kill. The same line of Waterfall tablets goes on to say that, ironically, the only weakness humans have is the strength of their souls, which is because Human souls can be easily absorbed by Monster's when a human dies.

Moving on, another set of tablets says 1. "This power has no counter. Indeed, a human cannot take a Monster's soul." 2. "When a Monster dies, it's soul disappears." 3. "And an incredible power would be needed to take the soul of a living Monster." 4. "There is only one exception." 5. "The SOUL of a special species of monster called a "BOSS Monster"." 6. "If only for a few moments." There is a bit more dialogue afterwards but it's not relevant enough to mention.

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Basically, Humans do also have soul absorption. However, they can't technically take the soul's of normal Monster's, as their souls disappear too quickly. Also worth noting that dialogue box 3 is referencing Flowey forcefully taking the souls of every Monster without killing them.

Onto the next set of tablets, 1. "The humans, afraid of our power, declared war on us." 2. "They attacked suddenly, and without mercy." 3. "In the end, it could hardly be called a war." 4. "United, the humans were too powerful, and us monsters, too weak." 5. "Not a single soul was taken, and countless monsters were turned to dust."

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5.

So in summary, the humans ruthlessly slaughtered the Monster's before imprisoning them. The Monster's weren't even able to kill a single human. And while it's implied that the humans had a surprise advantage, what's also said and implied otherwise, along with everything previously mentioned, still shows that humans are far stronger than Monster's. There is also, of course, the fact that humans are physically superior to Monster's, as Monster's don't even have standard physical forms. They're made out of magic. Despite this, Undyne consistently performs superhuman feats (for actual human standards) such as even casually suplexing a large boulder in metal armor, just because she can. Which further emphasizes how Undertale humans are not nearly the same as irl humans. And of course Undertale humans would scale to said feat. They should also obviously scale to Chara's wall level feat that every non-god tier scales to. Speaking of, has Undyne cutting the bridge been calced? Cause I'm wondering if Chara's feat is actually more impressive. Anyways, back to the point, humans are much stronger than Monster's.

Now I'm gonna get onto a big section of tablets, this is gonna be a pain. Actually, due to how time consuming this is, just go to this video, skip to 2:21:38, and watch to 2:22:12. Basically going over the Barrier, how it works, and notably states that it requires the power of 7 human souls to destroy. Meaning that even a being like Omega Flowey wouldn't be capable of breaking it. Meanwhile a young Asriel with only Chara's soul absorbed could've slaughtered an entire village of bloodlusted humans by himself.

Moving on, the last bit of dialogue in Waterfall I wanted to mention is that Undyne claims Gerson is the toughest Monster who had ever lived. Emphasizing it by saying that he fought in the war and survived. Her claiming that he is the toughest Monster to ever live despite being familiar with and having been trained by Asgore, who even dwarfs her own strength, implies that she at least thinks he's on the level of people like Asgore, or rather, was on that level in his prime, but also uses the fact that he survived the war as an impressive feat to help explain how strong he is, further shows the massive difference between humans and Monster's.

Finally, enough scans, I'll get onto the profile itself, not actually in the sense of every detail in its formatting, but just a layout of what it'd look like.

Civilization Type: Post-Industrial Civilization

Kardeshev: Likely Type 0 (Technologically only shown to be on a similar level with real life humans, also implied to have similar culture)

For their powers and abilities section, it should likely include:

Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Magic (obvious reasons), Creation (created the Barrier of course), Soul Absorption (for already shown reasons), possibly Time Manipulation (being's with massive amounts of Determination control the timeline, but seeing as Flowey had it with only the amount Alphys gave him before Frisk's arrival, it likely wouldn't be applicable to humans), Healing (the human souls healed Frisk in the Omega Flowey fight), Reactive Power Level (Determination makes people stronger in Undertale, generally speaking, this would obviously apply to normal Undertale humans, who naturally have Determination unlike Monster's), Ability to gain LOVE through killing (as stated on Frisk's profile, and should not only be applicable to Frisk, actually it could debatably be on every profile but that's another topic), regeneration (should be able to regenerate through Determination as well), resistance to soul manipulation.

Attack Potency:

At least Wall level, likely far higher (Are consistently stated to be massively superior in comparison with Monster's)

Speed: At least Subsonic+, likely Supersonic

Lifting Strength: At least Class 5 (Should be far above Ice Wolf and Undyne)

Military Prowess: Implied to be capable of gathering a large number of soldiers when prepared for war, stated to have a specific class of warriors called magicians. Seen carrying various different weapons in the intro of the game.

Alright, I've been making this for over an hour by now, I'm just gonna post it and handle everything else afterwards, kekw.

 

[Eficiente]

Get destroyed by someone isn't a feat, the thing's just above O. Flowey if we take that way how he was unable to kill everyone yet. Regeneration takes more than how it's portrayed there. The rest is fine.

 

[RinneItachi]

Asriel showed high effort when performing the feat, and the fact that it requires a being with 7 human souls to break, and was also made by 7 humans, is obviously intentional, implying that it does specifically take a being with that much power to break it, or rather, requires a being with specifically Low 2-C levels of power. And it's only a "possibly up to", not stated as a certainty in the post.

 

[Eficiente]

Asriel showed high effort when performing the feat

• He wasn't on his full power form anymore but kid form, it's somewhat vague if he can still do something at his full power like that.
• The Low 2-C feat he was doing was taking a few minutes whereas destroying the barrier took some seconds.

and the fact that it requires a being with 7 human souls to break, and was also made by 7 humans, is obviously intentional

Not really, Asriel has his souls absorbed into himself, the souls of 6 kids + a bunch of monsters, if teaming up in groups of 7 does the same as absorbing the souls into 1 being then, well, the whole lore in UT falls apart.

If you want to ignore the teaming up and focus on how those humans were pretty powerful themselves and thereby special then just being powerful isn't a mean to = Asriel's level.
How many regular humans using magic would it take to = this powerful 7 humans who did the barrier? That's where the thing having Low 2-C durability looks off, it's a pretty high stat to give them when we can just say that the barrier has lower durability and that fits better.

 

[RinneItachi]

It's somewhat doubtful that his form in the second phase is supposed to represent him using his full power, and that he can only use it in said form. His kid form is his true form, both forms he uses in the fight are just what Asriel prefers, and Asriel, due to his still childish personality, could very well just prefer something like that. There's even some dialogue describing him that says he's the "Absolute God Of Hyperdeath". His "Angel of Death" form as some have called it is very likely just something Asriel chose because "It looks cool". He also clearly wasn't using his full power until the very end of the fight with that whole rainbow beam thing. Visual implications actually suggest that he still wasn't using his full strength even in most of the second phase, and was still just toying with Frisk. Also, either way, there's an infinite difference between Low 2-C and High 3-A, which is also infinitely above 3-A. If someone with Low 2-C power needs to expend effort in destroying something, wouldn't that mean it has to be somewhere within the tier, as it being anywhere below that tier would require it to be at least infinitely below Asriel, which contradicts him putting effort into it, to begin with? And when going with the idea that Asriel was destroying it over time, as I said in the other thread, Asriel was doing that passively. Actual effort>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>passive effects performed by literally just existing.

There is one thing I could mention about your argument there, but on second thought, I retract that overall point. The Barrier is clearly far more powerful than what the 7 human magicians could ever do individually. It's a type of situation where, even if the Barrier is Low 2-C, that's simply because they can cast specific spells that create Low 2-C constructs, not that the humans themselves would actually even remotely scale to said constructs. So the point that 7 humans created it and that it needs 7 human souls to break is null.

 

[Eficiente]

It's somewhat doubtful that his form in the second phase is supposed to represent him using his full power, and that he can only use it in said form. His kid form is his true form, both forms he uses in the fight are just what Asriel prefers, and Asriel, due to his still childish personality, could very well just prefer something like that. There's even some dialogue describing him that says he's the "Absolute God Of Hyperdeath". His "Angel of Death" form as some have called it is very likely just something Asriel chose because "It looks cool".

Yes that was him wanting to look cool, but we don't know if the extent of it covers everything like him needing to transform into a bigger form with energy flowing over him. His kid form being his true form is misleading, that's how he was before gaining power and the form he missed having, and we do know the fusion from a monsters w/ a human looks like a horrible beast.

He also clearly wasn't using his full power until the very end of the fight with that whole rainbow beam thing. Visual implications actually suggest that he still wasn't using his full strength even in most of the second phase, and was still just toying with Frisk.

Going by visuals then you should more easily believe that him doing that in his kid form wasn't him using his full power. He could have used his true power against Frisk on that big beam by also making it so that it doesn't kill Frisk, or he could have just hold back.

And when going with the idea that Asriel was destroying it over time, as I said in the other thread, Asriel was doing that passively. Actual effort>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>passive effects performed by literally just existing.

The other thread was a mess. Like a number of characters claimed to be passively doing something, they are doing it because they actively use their powers for it, and doing so doesn't require them to do some body movements+saying what they're doing. There is no reason to claim Asriel just exist and that's ending the timeline in the same way we all exist and have our weight over Earth, Asriel's ending the timeline because he's willing so, either constantly and having done so before and the process being a bit slow. Claim something like it to be thought-based>claiming it to be passively because the latter assumes more. Asriel is using his full power against Frisk but we have no idea how much of his Low 2-C power that is as he's already doing his best feat trying to destroy the timeline while fighting Frisk, and if Asriel's every attack was Low 2-C then one would think he could end the timeline faster, or is a headcanon made that "the timeline was ending slowly because Asriel wanted to end it slowly for show but could end it quickly at once if he wanted to".

Imagine some featless character lifting a huge rock with TK a bit higher and higher while fighting someone, and now imagine some featless character having always a huge rock over their head w/o any issue at all while fighting someone smaller. It's made up to claim that Asriel's situation was the latter rather than the former.

There is one thing I could mention about your argument there, but on second thought, I retract that overall point. The Barrier is clearly far more powerful than what the 7 human magicians could ever do individually. It's a type of situation where, even if the Barrier is Low 2-C, that's simply because they can cast specific spells that create Low 2-C constructs, not that the humans themselves would actually even remotely scale to said constructs. So the point that 7 humans created it and that it needs 7 human souls to break is null.

It's a headcanon.

 

[RinneItachi]

Alright.

I never said it was his full power when destroying the Barrier, I said it took visual effort. Saying that he wasn't trying to kill Frisk and was still holding back with the beam is pure headcanon.

Nothing suggests anything more than his presence in the timeline is what's causing it to be destroyed. There is no implications that he's focused on or even trying to perform said feat, so assuming that it's a completely inactive effect of his power is perfectly reasonable, and that is even used for other characters on the wiki who perform feats via non-active passive effects. Even if that's not the case, Asriel is still destroying it nigh-effortlessly, and it would still be much weaker than his final attack. Assuming otherwise is headcanon. As for the argument that "if every attack Asriel has was Low 2-C then he would be able to destroy it faster and guessing that he's just not because he doesn't want to is wrong", then I guess Dragon Ball villains not destroying the Earth whenever they want means that they're all below planet level . That's just an irrelevant point.

Don't know why you're even bringing up the whole 7 magicians thing when I already stopped talking about it, but okay.

 

[Eficiente]

Well, I believe I said what I had to clearly that that if that didn't work then going further into it won't either, so I'm inviting second opinions to check things out.

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King @WeeklyBattles @Therefir @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @DemonGodMitchAubin @Agnaa @Ricsi-viragosi @Elizhaa

Especially that thing about Asriel doing his Low 2-C feat passively by literally just existing.

 

[Eficiente]

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King @WeeklyBattles @Therefir @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @DemonGodMitchAubin @Agnaa @Ricsi-viragosi @Elizhaa

And this thread.

 

[Justkillme42069]

looks fine, except probably have forcefield creation instead of regular creation for the barrier and for the key I'd probably have "at least 9-B, likely higher physically (same reason as stated), at least 7-A (bc only seven human magicians were able to make the barrier which presumably covers every possible entrance to the underground, which are all also presumably on mt ebott), possibly up to low 2-C with magic (same reason as stated)"

 

[RinneItachi]

Hard to say. Forcefield creation seems to be in cases where someone just makes a shield around a small location or around a person specifically, based on the page for it, but that might also work. I don't think there'd be much point in adding a "physically", even if the point is that their physical strength is much higher than Monster's. Covering a mountain wouldn't make something 7-A, as covering it doesn't mean it's equal in mass. The surface of the Earth completely covers it, but it's nowhere near 5-B. We also don't know how large Mt. Ebott is, just that it's a mountain (although presumably still very large as it can fit the entire civilization of Monster's within it).

 

[Justkillme42069]

Covering a mountain wouldn't make something 7-A, as covering it doesn't mean it's equal in mass. The surface of the Earth completely covers it, but it's nowhere near 5-B. We also don't know how large Mt. Ebott is, just that it's a mountain (although presumably still very large as it can fit the entire civilization of Monster's within it)

fair enough also buuump

 

[RinneItachi]

Bump. Forgot about this but don't want to let it die like last time, also made a minor change.