Nessa vs. Nessa

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

2-A Nessa vs. Low 2-C Nessa
Speed equalized

 

[Imaginym]

What makes a 2-A vs a 2-C fair??

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

What makes a 2-A vs a 2-C fair??

I mean, can Pokemon Nessa bypass Low-Godly, or at least incap? And pretty sure CM bypass durability.

 

[Imaginym]

Looking at the scaling chain, it goes to Victor/Gloria, who can beat Raihan, who's on par with Leon, who has this:

Attack Potency: Wall level+ (Physically comparable to regular Trainers as Jessie, James or Red) | Multiverse level, likely Multiverse level+ (As the strongest trainer in the Galar region, his team should be significantly stronger than the rental Pokémon that can fight Dynamaxed versions of Dialga, Palkia and Giratina), higher with Gigantamax (Far stronger than before)

IDK which "Rental Pokemon" the profile is referring to, & IDK if beating Raid Den versions of them qualifies for negating their abilities.

That said, IDK how her Pokemon are beating Low-Godly other than scaling to being ab;e to harm 2-A beings.
I also dunno if CM from a Low 2-C is beating 2-As.

Independent of the scaling shenanigans, Nessa's Pokemon have no business dealing with Low-Godly Regen nor Conceptual Manipulation.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I also dunno if CM from a Low 2-C is beating 2-As.

It does. Since when CM cannot affect higher dura?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Going by the description of her CM, she can only create concepts, not use it offensively

Anyway, Nessa pokemon attacks and knock out the other Nessa. I doubt a trainer would go to kill

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

Going by the description of her CM, she can only create concepts, not use it offensively

Anyway, Nessa pokemon attacks and knock out the other Nessa. I doubt a trainer would go to kill

Can her Pokemons knock out infinite stamina?

 

[SeijiSetto]

Can her Pokemons knock out infinite stamina?

Logically, yeah? Why wouldn't they be able to? Endurance is good and all but if someone gets hit in the jaw and their brain rocks, they go to sleep. Stamina isn't a factor.

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

Logically, yeah? Why wouldn't they be able to? Endurance is good and all but if someone gets hit in the jaw and their brain rocks, they go to sleep. Stamina isn't a factor.

Okay, just asking.

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

bump

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

What the- never mind
So Pokemon Nessa just commands her mons to attack Simarillion Nessa and wins cos 2-A vs 2-C huh

 

[Imaginym]

What the- never mind
So Pokemon Nessa just commands her mons to attack Simarillion Nessa and wins cos 2-A vs 2-C huh

But then 2-C Nessa Regenerates via Mid-Godly, right??

 

[SeijiSetto]

But then 2-C Nessa Regenerates via Mid-Godly, right??

It's Low-Godly, but that doesn't take away from your point. 2-A Nessa isn't winning by death, only by restraining or knockout.

 

[Imaginym]

I suppose it might be possible they knock Nessa out.

It's weird because they scale to being able to harm 2-C beings, but still weird to imagine anything in 2-A holding back enough to not kill a 2-C. Like, isn't it a gap of several infinities?

Is it reasonable to assume they can hold back that much? Or that they just don't always kill, or don't have that level of destructiveness to their attacks?

 

[SeijiSetto]

I suppose it might be possible they knock Nessa out.

It's weird because they scale to being able to harm 2-C beings, but still weird to imagine anything in 2-A holding back enough to not kill a 2-C. Like, isn't it a gap of several infinities?

Is it reasonable to assume they can hold back that much? Or that they just don't always kill, or don't have that level of destructiveness to their attacks?

It is very weird to imagine because 2-A is destroying an infinite amount of universes (which is sorta infinity^2 * uni AP) but in theory, the same way a High 8-C character like Spidey can choose to pull their punches and not kill everyone below them instantly, 2-As should be able to hold back to tussle with Low 2-Cs.

Even then, Low-Godly go brrr. None of Nessa's abilities are negating that. The closest thing she has is stat reduction (for the enemy) and stat amping (for her own team).

tl;dr 2-A Nessa is far, far stronger but she can't put down Low 2-C Nessa for good, she doesn't have the abilities for it. She doesn't even have BFR or similar where she could seal her away.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Even then, Low-Godly go brrr. None of Nessa's abilities are negating that. The closest thing she has is stat reduction (for the enemy) and stat amping (for her own team).

tl;dr 2-A Nessa is far, far stronger but she can't put down Low 2-C Nessa for good, she doesn't have the abilities for it. She doesn't even have BFR or similar where she could seal her away.

You don't need to kill someone to win. Knock them out would be enough, and I doubt a Pokemon trainer has ever gone to kill rather than knocking the opponent.

Anyway, Low 2-C Nessa can do literally nothing. AP difference is too big and CM is not combat applicable, since it only creates concepts.

 

[SeijiSetto]

You don't need to kill someone to win. Knock them out would be enough, and I doubt a Pokemon trainer has ever gone to kill rather than knocking the opponent.

Anyway, Low 2-C Nessa can do literally nothing. AP difference is too big and CM is not combat applicable, since it only creates concepts.

True. Pokemon don't tend to hold back though, right? I don't know if being able to see your opponent's Pokemon's health is a game mechanic, but if they can't then what reason would they have to assume their opponent is far weaker?

Low 2-C Nessa is intangible, so she can't get trapped in ice or drowned in water or suffocated under rock or any of the other abilities that 2-A Nessa's Pokemon have.

 

[Imaginym]

But she comes back to life when Nessa inadvertently kills her, right?

So after the shock wears off, Nessa the Pokemon Trainer might realize she won't win if her Pokemon keep killing this hostile person.

& if she doesn't realize the first time, well.... What can LotR Nessa do to threaten the Pokemon (trainer) between revivals? If she can't threaten Nessa, besides the potential issue of lacking a win condition, it'd mean Nessa & her Pokemon have as much time as their Stamina can allot to figure out how to win. Or if they can, I suppose, lol.

 

[SeijiSetto]

But she comes back to life when Nessa inadvertently kills her, right?

So after the shock wears off, Nessa the Pokemon Trainer might realize she won't win if her Pokemon keep killing this hostile person.

& if she doesn't realize the first time, well.... What can LotR Nessa do to threaten the Pokemon (trainer) between revivals? If she can't threaten Nessa, besides the potential issue of lacking a win condition, it'd mean Nessa & her Pokemon have as much time as their Stamina can allot to figure out how to win. Or if they can, I suppose, lol.

How does 2-A Nessa even hit Low 2-C Nessa? She doesn't have NPI or any way of bypassing intangibility.

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

True. Pokemon don't tend to hold back though, right? I don't know if being able to see your opponent's Pokemon's health is a game mechanic, but if they can't then what reason would they have to assume their opponent is far weaker?

Low 2-C Nessa is intangible, so she can't get trapped in ice or drowned in water or suffocated under rock or any of the other abilities that 2-A Nessa's Pokemon have.

Wait, do Pokemon even have NPI? And does intangibility even matter between a 2-A and Low 2-C?

Still Nessa can't do shit against Low-Godly and her Pokemon don't have infinite stamina. Unless since Nessa can't do anything to the Pokemon, and uhhh

Victory Conditions: Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions.

Does Nessa's Pokemon going to sleep naturally without the other Nessa doing anything to them count as a victory or an incon?

 

[Imaginym]

Wait, do Pokemon even have NPI? And does intangibility even matter between a 2-A and Low 2-C?

Nessa's Pokemon are 2-A via a scaling chain that involves being able to harm Max Raid Den versions of Dialga, Palkia & Giratina, so I'm unsure they have like, 2-A range or such, just a a capacity to harm 2-A opponents.

Does Nessa's Pokemon going to sleep naturally without the other Nessa doing anything to them count as a victory or an incon?

I mean, in theory they could exhaust themselves trying to harm Nessa?

In that case, it's sort of Nessa's fault, since it's a passive (IDK if LotR Nessa can disable that passive of hers, nor if her having such a capacity would be relevant to the verdict.) of the opponent; They'd be technically thwarted by a capability of their opponent, I guess??

 

[SeijiSetto]

Wait, do Pokemon even have NPI? And does intangibility even matter between a 2-A and Low 2-C?

Still Nessa can't do shit against Low-Godly and her Pokemon don't have infinite stamina. Unless since Nessa can't do anything to the Pokemon, and uhhh

Victory Conditions: Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions.

Does Nessa's Pokemon going to sleep naturally without the other Nessa doing anything to them count as a victory or an incon?

I wanna say yes because Ghost types are a thing but it's not listed, so I'm not sure.

But yeah, 2-A Nessa can't do shit against Low-Godly, perhaps she decides to go for a knockout instead of oneshotting but Idunno how likely that is. Considering the latter is a ghost or disembodied spirit of some kind, knockout in itself is dubious. Low 2-C Nessa has immeasurable LS though, so strangling... maybe? It's really weird.

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

Nessa's Pokemon are 2-A via a scaling chain that involves being able to harm Max Raid Den versions of Dialga, Palkia & Giratina, so I'm unsure they have like, 2-A range or such, just a a capacity to harm 2-A opponents.

I mean, in theory they could exhaust themselves trying to harm Nessa?

In that case, it's sort of Nessa's fault, since it's a passive (IDK if LotR Nessa can disable that passive of hers, nor if her having such a capacity would be relevant to the verdict.) of the opponent; They'd be technically thwarted by a capability of their opponent, I guess??

Problem is, would the Pokemon exhaust themselves to a point where they are incapacitated for more than one hour?

I wanna say yes because Ghost types are a thing but it's not listed, so I'm not sure.

But yeah, 2-A Nessa can't do shit against Low-Godly, perhaps she decides to go for a knockout instead of oneshotting but Idunno how likely that is. Considering the latter is a ghost or disembodied spirit of some kind, knockout in itself is dubious. Low 2-C Nessa has immeasurable LS though, so strangling... maybe? It's really weird.

Yeah Ghost types are a thing, Ghastly has intangibility listed on its profile.

Would the Low 2-C Nessa do that in character though?

 

[Imaginym]

I wanna say yes because Ghost types are a thing but it's not listed, so I'm not sure.

A lot of Ghosts are of... contentious NPI/Incorporeality.
Intangibility probably goes to some of them like Gastly (For being made of gas.), Rotom (Made of plasma.), Spiritomb (108 evil spirits bound together by the keystone.), & maybe some others.

There's also the dubiously canon stuff in Amie & Refresh where the stylus has a specific interaction for "Spooky" parts of Ghost-type Pokemon, that implies intangibility for those parts. Can't pet them there & such.
I don't remember other Ghost-type stuff off the top of my head, but A LOT of them are possessed objects.

I mean, many Ghost-types are actually spirits, but the fact many have bodies like a tree stump or a pumpkin or a sword makes it a little uncertain.

I could try & write up a list summarizing the Ghost-types & what their deal is, if you really want me to, based primarily on Pokedex stuff, but it'd take some time.

But yeah, 2-A Nessa can't do shit against Low-Godly, perhaps she decides to go for a knockout instead of oneshotting but Idunno how likely that is.

In Pokemon gameplay, defeated Pokemon always faint, & in the anime, Pokemon generally aren't killed, either. For example, IIRC, in tournaments, usually they end up declared as having no energy left to battle & swirly-eyed or such. Then they're returned to their Poke Ball for rest.

Knocking the opposing Pokemon unconscious is usually how Pokemon battles are resolved, although how much control they have, in-universe, of whether the foe dies or not from their moves is a bit dubious, as I'm sure you understand.

Problem is, would the Pokemon exhaust themselves to a point where they are incapacitated for more than one hour?

Maybe? Unsure how long unassisted recovery times are, but it may be more than an hour.

Yeah Ghost types are a thing, Ghastly has intangibility listed on its profile.

As mentioned, Gastly may be because it's specifically stated to be made of gas.

Would the Low 2-C Nessa do that in character though?

After enough iterations of one side coming back to life repeatedly with neither side making progress, she might resort to it, even if it is OoC.
It being IC or not feels less relevant if there's all the time in the world for her to realize it's her only win condition, or 1 of her only win conditions, at least.

 

[SeijiSetto]

A lot of Ghosts are of... contentious NPI/Incorporeality.
Intangibility probably goes to some of them like Gastly (For being made of gas.), Rotom (Made of plasma.), Spiritomb (108 evil spirits bound together by the keystone.), & maybe some others.

There's also the dubiously canon stuff in Amie & Refresh where the stylus has a specific interaction for "Spooky" parts of Ghost-type Pokemon, that implies intangibility for those parts. Can't pet them there & such.
I don't remember other Ghost-type stuff off the top of my head, but A LOT of them are possessed objects.

I mean, many Ghost-types are actually spirits, but the fact many have bodies like a tree stump or a pumpkin or a sword makes it a little uncertain.

I could try & write up a list summarizing the Ghost-types & what their deal is, if you really want me to, based primarily on Pokedex stuff, but it'd take some time.

In Pokemon gameplay, defeated Pokemon always faint, & in the anime, Pokemon generally aren't killed, either. For example, IIRC, in tournaments, usually they end up declared as having no energy left to battle & swirly-eyed or such. Then they're returned to their Poke Ball for rest.

Knocking the opposing Pokemon unconscious is usually how Pokemon battles are resolved, although how much control they have, in-universe, of whether the foe dies or not from their moves is a bit dubious, as I'm sure you understand.

Maybe? Unsure how long unassisted recovery times are, but it may be more than an hour.

As mentioned, Gastly may be because it's specifically stated to be made of gas.

After enough iterations of one side coming back to life repeatedly with neither side making progress, she might resort to it, even if it is OoC.
It being IC or not feels less relevant if there's all the time in the world for her to realize it's her only win condition, or 1 of her only win conditions, at least.

But if Pokemon can harm even one of the actually intang ones (which in theory they could because you can make any 2 pokemon fight), shouldn't they all get NPI?

 

[Imaginym]

But if Pokemon can harm even one of the actually intang ones (which in theory they could because you can make any 2 pokemon fight), shouldn't they all get NPI?

That does sound like a topic for a CRT.

I vaguely recall topics like that having been brought up a while ago, but I don't remember the current verdicts.

Plus, some might argue harming things like gas or plasma may not be sufficient for NPI.

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

But if Pokemon can harm even one of the actually intang ones (which in theory they could because you can make any 2 pokemon fight), shouldn't they all get NPI?

I mean yeah, that does make sense, but as Imainym says, might be better to bring that up in a CRT. Assuming that any of them even have intangibility, that is

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

bump

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

So now it depends on whether Nessa's Pokemon knock out Nessa first or whether Low 2-C Nessa decides to strangle the 2-A Nessa first huh.

It should be possible for a 2-A to knock out a Low 2-C for an hour without killing her right?

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

bump

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

bump

 

[Tyranno223]

LOTR (book) profiles are being heavily revised, so they really shouldn't be used in match ups yet.

For one, Nessa (LOTR) is now Low 1-C.

 

[Rose_of_Ragnarok]

RIP