Nature Women

[BoilingMold]

I saw a thread about ebf reworks and there’s the massive Touhou doc being talked about on the discussion thread for it so I think this should just be reposted when both series get their changes (Since from what I’ve seen for the mentioned things both will still be able to fight eachother if this is posted with the same wording)

 

[Ikelaggan]

Yeah but... getting killed over and over with no real way to win is incap.

Anna has over at least 233,280 equipment combinations and at half of them at least half of them granting passive evasion/speed buffs. So she isn't completely with no wincons.

 

[Quibster]

In light of the PC-98 CRT and merge between Windows era and 98' era, I'll add onto this.

Yuuka has defeated Alice Margatroid in Mystic Square (PC-98). The latter of whom was able to incapacitate Mokou (a type 1, 3, and 5 immortal), after inflicting too much pain for her to keep fighting. To reinforce this suggestion, Alice has also confirmed that Yuuka is indeed stronger than her after defeating her in Mystic Square. It was also confirmed that the time between the events of Mystic Square and Embodiment of Scarlet Devil are not far apart, and that Reimu was the same age in both games according to her EoSD profile. This is indeed the same Alice that defeated Mokou, and the same Alice that was defeated by Yuuka. Judging by this alone, Yuuka should be more than capable of handling Anna's type 8 Immortality.

If Anna's immortality is going to be an issue, Yuuka is probably going to relish the fact that she can play with Anna until she gives up. It isn't exactly going to be enough against a scalding hot AP shower of endless Danmaku; especially since her immortality seems to be resource-driven (correct me if i'm wrong here). Yuuka is simply going to convert Anna's attacks into Spirit to regain stamina with her bombs, and keep up her assault.

Other than that, does Anna resist the Space-time Manipulation and Power Modification Hax that Yuuka has? Like all other spell card users, she has a spell circle that slows things around her to a near stop. Alongside making attacks that would be lethal or otherwise impossible to overcome 'gamified' with her Power Modification. Dispelling Yuuka or casting insta-death magic isn't exactly going to work out under these conditions. Anna's abilities will essentially become a puzzle for Yuuka to weave through.

The most likely wincon Yuuka has here is simply curbing Anna over, and over, and over. Either until her resources are depleted, or until she gives up. The funnier thing here is that Yuuka's Fourth-wall breaking can allow her to mock the player, as she has done before.

Voting Yuuka FRA due to a Stamina and AP advantage, alongside attack-altering hax.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Other than that, does Anna resist the Space-time Manipulation and Power Modification Hax that Yuuka has? Like all other spell card users, she has a spell circle that slows things around her to a near stop. Alongside simply making attacks that would be lethal or otherwise impossible to overcome 'gamified' with her Power Modification.

Most of anyone post ebf3 can resist spacetime manip in spades from fighting Akron , ebf4 slow down status is practically just higher layered timestop/paralysis. Has her own power modification through red bot and yellow bot summons.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anna has over at least 233,280 equipment combinations and at half of them at least half of them granting passive evasion/speed buffs. So she isn't completely with no wincons.

Those do not matter if you cannot avoid being one shotted lol.

 

[Quibster]

Has her own power modification through red bot and yellow bot summons.

You seem to be misunderstanding, and it doesn't work like how you're implying based on this comparison.

Yuuka's Power Modification isn't going to affect Anna, it will affect Anna's attacks. It's a different kind of Power Modification (...change the function of an ability in some shape or form...). Whatever Anna hurls, it is going to be reduced to a non-lethal state on a conceptual level, essentially 'gameifying' it, just by Yuuka giving the attack a name. Essentially, if an attack is going to outright kill or become impossible to overcome, it wont. It will instead become a tangible obstacle for Yuuka to overcome, as if dodging Danmaku.

Just as Marisa did here, this applies to all characters who can use Spell Cards in Touhou. This is what I had meant by attack-altering hax.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Those do not matter if you cannot avoid being one shotted lol.

Literally fights against the glitch who's main gimmick is oneshoting in both ebf4 and 5, Pope dress casts revive/auto-revive so one shoting is not gonna matter in the long run if she can't be put down permanently

 

[StrymULTRA]

Literally fights against the glitch who's main gimmick is oneshoting in both ebf4 and 5, Pope dress casts revive/auto-revive so one shoting is not gonna matter in the long run if she can't be put down permanently

But if she can't defeat the opponent either it's incap.

 

[Quibster]

Literally fights against the glitch who's main gimmick is oneshoting in both ebf4 and 5, Pope dress casts revive/auto-revive so one shoting is not gonna matter in the long run if she can't be put down permanently

It will matter if she has no solution to it. This is called being Incapacitated.

 

[Ikelaggan]

You seem to be misunderstanding, and it doesn't work like how you're implying based on this comparison.

Yuuka's Power Modification isn't going to affect Anna, it will affect Anna's attacks. It's a different kind of Power Modification (...change the function of an ability in some shape or form...). Whatever Anna hurls, it is going to be reduced to a non-lethal state on a conceptual level, essentially 'gameifying' it, just by Yuuka giving the attack a name. Essentially, if an attack is going to outright kill or become impossible to overcome, it wont. It will instead become a tangible obstacle for Yuuka to overcome, as if dodging Danmaku.

Just as Marisa did here, this applies to all characters who can use Spell Cards in Touhou. This is what I had meant by attack-altering hax.

In ebf5 you have more than 2 other victory conditions besides killing, forcing enemies into surrender status or capturing them pokemon style. Which the cage just works on about every enemy in ebf like ghosts, slimes with size manip, and the cosmic monoliths that just warp spacetime to dodge.

 

[Quibster]

In ebf5 you have more than 2 other victory conditions besides killing, forcing enemies into surrender status or capturing them pokemon style. Which the cage just works on about every enemy in ebf like ghosts, slimes with size manip, and the cosmic monoliths that just warp spacetime to dodge.

"When a foe is in a disadvantageous scenario, it may decide to give itself the Surrender status on its turn; if a foe with Surrender gets a turn, they will immediately run away from the battle."

Why would Yuuka surrender when she has a clear AP advantage here? She's also resistant to Fear Madness and Madness Manipulation on a 2-C scale after the events of Imperishable Night. She's one of the few characters in the verse who are obscenely competitive to lunatic degrees, to the point where she's been exterminated by Reimu several times in the past. Surrendering is off the table here, especially after defeating a Creator of Gensokyou as part of a sunday stroll, and the creator of Gensokyou's Demon World.

Capturing is also redundant. It's not going to work so long as Yuuka has Power Modification, which is going to be active this entire fight. There's also an outlier here as to whether or not Capturing would work, seeing as these monsters you've presented are literal fodder, and are fundamentally different in terms of scaling.

 

[Epiccheev]

Yuuka likely stomps at this point tbh.

 

[Ikelaggan]

"When a foe is in a disadvantageous scenario, it may decide to give itself the Surrender status on its turn; if a foe with Surrender gets a turn, they will immediately run away from the battle."

Why would Yuuka surrender when she has a clear AP advantage here? She's also resistant to Fear Madness and Madness Manipulation on a 2-C scale after the events of Imperishable Night. She's one of the few characters in the verse who are obscenely competitive to lunatic degrees, to the point where she's been exterminated by Reimu several times in the past. Surrendering is off the table here, especially after defeating a Creator of Gensokyou as part of a sunday stroll, and the creator of Gensokyou's Demon World.

Anna still has empathy Manipulation with loveable status to prevent targeting.

Capturing is also redundant. It's not going to work so long as Yuuka has Power Modification, which is going to be active this entire fight. There's also an outlier here as to whether or not Capturing would work, seeing as these monsters you've presented are literal fodder, and are fundamentally different in terms of scaling.

Literally at the bottom of the the summon list of catchable foes you got the same glitch that can oneshot Anna and the devourer who I've got still in the works for a ebf5 CRT for him having plot hax, law hax, and possibly 2-C scailing

 

[Quibster]

Literally at the bottom of the the summon list of catchable foes you got the same glitch that can oneshot Anna and the devourer who I've got still in the works for a ebf5 CRT for him having plot hax, law hax, and possibly 2-C scailing

"Prevents the afflicted from being targeted by most single-target attacks. Attacks that target everyone evenly work normally."

"Unlike Target, Lovable is typically ignored by attacks that target randomly, such as Anna's arrow barrages"

So her Danmaku is still going through. Yuuka also has a detonative AoE via her bomb, which is her means of recovering Stamina and wiping attacks from her vicinity. Any attacks that Anna throws will be erased, and will be siphoned by her to be consumed as Stamina once converted to Spirit. And in turn, allow Yuuka to throw a 2-C bomb again if the Danmaku wasn't enough already, which Yuuka is going to start with.

Glitch and Devourer also don't appear to scale higher than any high-tier character in Touhou. Speaking of, Yuuka should already scale higher than Doremy who already creates 2-C dream structures at will (at least 100+ Universes in raw AP, due to these structures being containing infinitely sized realms. She is also stated to eat them. ), and is comparable to Sakuya and Marisa in terms of AP due to her exploits in LLS, MS, and PoFV.

 

[Ikelaggan]

"Prevents the afflicted from being targeted by most single-target attacks. Attacks that target everyone evenly work normally."

"Unlike Target, Lovable is typically ignored by attacks that target randomly, such as Anna's arrow barrages"

So her Danmaku is still going through. Yuuka also has a detonative AoE via her bomb, which is her means of recovering Stamina and wiping attacks from her vicinity. Any attacks that Anna throws will be erased, and will be siphoned by her to be consumed as Stamina once converted to Spirit. And in turn, allow Yuuka to throw a 2-C bomb again if the Danmaku wasn't enough already, which Yuuka is going to start with.

But how does this handle against spells that just spawn on top of you like gaia blossom (tired status really doesn't care if you have biology to tire out works on robots, works on golems, and works on spirts), there's absolute zero but despite what you might think this also just ignores the logic of ghosts just being a metaphysical thing and puts all of them expect the frost wraith on ice.

 

[StrymULTRA]

possibly 2-C scailing

How many universes? Touhou has 108+

 

[Quibster]

But how does this handle against spells that just spawn on top of you like gaia blossom (tired status really doesn't care if you have biology to tire out works on robots, works on golems, and works on spirts), there's absolute zero but despite what you might think this also just ignores the logic of ghosts just being a metaphysical thing and puts all of them expect the frost wraith on ice.

Read my comment about Power Modification in Touhou in the thread above. It is always going to apply, and will still apply in this case. Yuuka's 'primary' ability is the power to control flowers anyways, so the Gaia Blossom is not going to matter here; especially with her ability to regain stamina. Additionally, as I said, Yuuka wont tire out so long as she has things to destroy; projectiles, summons, and even getting off hits siphons stamina. The things that Anna will summon will be blitzed, converted to spirits, and consumed as Stamina after the fact. Especially with the Infinite speed at play here, and the fact that they (the summons) too are susceptible to Yuuka's Power Modification.

Also, Ghosts =/= Youkai. Touhou's cosmology and lore make it too convoluted to explain, but I left an earlier comment above in the thread that you can reference.

The amount of utility that Anna has is still overshadowed by the AP difference, and the fact that Yuuka is able to make attacks that would instantly be lethal/incapacitate her become non-lethal and a tangible obstacle by which Yuuka can evade. Once again, this is how Power Modification works in Touhou for Spellcard users. It doesn't affect Anna specifically, it affects how Anna attacks/debuffs Yuuka by 'gamifying' her attacks, resulting in the latter effects.

There's proven merit to this due to Reimu 'gamifying' Remilia's Scarlet Mist, which makes Humans sick once inhaled in EoSD. alongside Yuyuko's passive death field being 'gamified' during the events of PCC by Marisa and Sakuya. This isn't an exclusive deal, as all Spellcard users in Touhou can do this. This includes Yuuka.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Read my comment about Power Modification in Touhou. It is always going to apply, and will still apply in this case. Yuuka's primary ability is the power to control flowers anyways. Additionally, as I said, Yuuka wont tire out so long as she has things to destroy. The things that Anna will summon will simply be consumed as Stamina, especially with the Infinite speed at play here, and the fact that they too are susceptible to Yuuka's Power Modification.

Read the OP, Speed's equalized here. And Anna absorbs plant and earth magic so yuuka's not doing any damage either consistently

The amount of utility that Anna has is still overshadowed by the AP difference, and the fact that Yuuka is able to make attacks that would instantly be lethal/incapacitate her become non-lethal and a tangible obstacle by which she can evade.

Okay even I just leave Anna at base equipment she still has a slight speed 35% advantage from eqiupment before even applying the 75% buff from reflex.
I'm just gonna leave my stance on the match being a incon.

 

[Quibster]

Read the OP, Speed's equalized here. And Anna absorbs plant and earth magic so yuuka's not doing any damage either consistently

Yuuka's danmaku isn't strictly flowers though. I'll say it once again too, Yuuka has an insurmountable AP advantage and is also not exclusive to Danmaku either. So I don't know where this is coming from.

There are no feats in the EBF5 verse that have been shown to scale to Yuuka's ballpark of 2-C either.

The most I've seen is the Devourer resetting the universe at the end of every game with AP, and that's it.

 

[Quibster]

Okay even I just leave Anna at base equipment she still has a slight speed 35% advantage from eqiupment before even applying the 75% buff from reflex.
I'm just gonna leave my stance on the match being a incon.

So this is where things get messy with speed rules, and technically doesn't apply either. Infinity it isn't made any bigger by adding to it or doubling it; nor is it made any smaller by subtracting from it or halving it. The result will always be infinity because the buffs applied are a finite number.

You cannot add onto infinity in the context of speed unless you move beyond linear time into Immeasurable speed territory, none of which either character can do.

 

[Ikelaggan]

There are no feats in the EBF5 verse that have been shown to scale to Yuuka's ballpark of 2-C either.

The most I've seen is the Devourer resetting the universe at the end of every game with AP, and that's it. If Anna couldnt resist that after EBF4, what hope does she have here?

If you wanna get technical, Anna and the rest of players still beat the devourer who states he has complete control over the simulation but the only force that literally stops him from just resetting the plot back to the start is the player outside the ebf universe playing the game and passively negating his made laws of nature that prevents probably from even existing, which even the devourer also states the player is in a higher dimension as he transfers himself as data through the screen and speakers to the higher dimension.

So this is where things get messy with speed rules, and technically doesn't apply either. Infinity it isn't made any bigger by adding to it or doubling it; nor is it made any smaller by subtracting from it or halving it. The result will always be infinity because the buffs applied are a finite number. You cannot add onto infinity in this context.

I know speed rules are weird but why is Anna equalized to infinite and not yuuka equalized to Mftl+, mostly since the infinite can't be amped by finite numbers logic at from what I've seen literally any sonic match vs a immeasurable speed character immeasurable speed doesn't run into the wall of "finite multipliers can't be applied cause of infinity" type logic like infinite speed does. unless your a nerd that uses higher alephs which makes it more ironic that infinite speed is probably the only speed that can't be gapped by multipliers or higher anything like old speed equalized just being no speed advantages period

 

[Ikelaggan]

I'm okay with leaving my point at incon since anna can't really be put out of commission, probably social influences with a kek meme and I'm calling it a day if infinite speed equalization is the true sans kryptonite. ☮

 

[Quibster]

yuuka and anna go on a picnic date FRA

 

[Ikelaggan]

yuuka and anna go on a picnic date FRA

the good ending

 

[Ikelaggan]

I honestly don't know how most touhou matches are gonna handle with card rules pulling a diet umineko red truth bs with gamfying attacks on a cm 1 type level without fighting a another concept user.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I honestly don't know how most touhou matches are gonna handle with card rules pulling a diet umineko red truth bs with gamfying attacks on a cm 1 type level without fighting a another concept user.

A lot of them don't do it in character don't worry.

 

[Ikelaggan]

A lot of them don't do it in character don't worry.

That's kinda like the smurf equivalent of having a deadly loaded pistol that ends any knife fight but never using it in character.

 

[Ikelaggan]

I'd probably call it pulling a sheriff woody.