Natsu Dragneel Vs. Kenshiro

[Grudgeman1706]

I don't think people realize how much a speed advantage Natsu has here. Irene is Mach 4800, Natsu and Zeref are much superior than that. While Kenshiro is ~Mach 3000.

To put that into perspective, if Kenshiro is a regular human, Natsu is ~2000 times faster than sound compared to him. That's the speed difference this is.

So Natsu hits him several times over before Kenshiro can even think.

Yes the difference in speed is pretty big, but as I and others have pointed out, the gap can be closed with precog and of your smart enough, predicting over which Ken can do via assimilating Natsu fighting style.

For example, the flash is absurdly faster than superman, but with quick thinking superman can predict where the flash will go and effectively hit him.

Same situation here, Natsu may be fast enough to tag Ken a couple times, but Ken will just figure out a way to bridge that speed gap, whether it's pre cog, or predicting natsus next move, or if all else fails phase through the attack.

 

[BoomeYang]

Grudgeman1706

Lava obviously wouldn't hurt Kenshiro because his durability is much greater than what lava can dish out. That's like saying he's resistant to blunt force because he no sells punches from fodders because that's what lava is to him. And Natsu can generate heat much higher than lava even though I don't remeber the exact temeperature (I have to check).

And except for ranged flame attacks, Natsu's punches cause huge shockwaves so Kenshiro can't dodge them.

Clairvoyance won't save against this speed, at all.

 

[BoomeYang]

For example, the flash is absurdly faster than superman, but with quick thinking superman can predict where the flash will go and effectively hit him.

Yes, but Superman has a superbrain so it's easier for him, Kenshiro doesn't have a brain like that. Not to mention that those encounters are PIS mostly.

Natsu is not fast to "tag him a couple times", he's fast to strike him a lot of times, which more than likely will greatly damage if not outright kill Kenshiro. And he still can dish out multiple ranged attacks than Kenshiro can't even dodge.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Lava obviously wouldn't hurt Kenshiro because his durability is much greater than what lava can dish out. That's like saying he's resistant to blunt force because he no sells punches from fodders because that's what lava is to him. And Natsu can generate heat much higher than lava even though I don't remeber the exact temeperature (I have to check).

I understand Natsu has Fire than burns hotter than lava, but my argument is Kenshiro has natural fire resistance already on top of his Durabilty. Heat plays a major role in natsus attacks because heat in general Amps up his attacks cause they damage in a really small scale, like fire itself isn't destructive normally to inorganic material unless it's hot enough but it does excruciating damage to organic material. And Ken was able to handle the heat of attacks capable of melting steel like butter. So natsus fire attacks won't have the same punch as they would on a normal non fire resistant opponent.

And except for ranged flame attacks, Natsu's punches cause huge shockwaves so Kenshiro can't dodge them

So do kenshiros, any attack with enough force will create shockwaves, Kenshiro could just block them if he's attacking from a distance he is fast enough to do so.

Clairvoyance won't save against this speed, at all

Clairvoyance isn't all that would save his speed, his skill and brains coupled with the this is will be able to close the gap, as he will know when the attack will come, prepare for it and counter it before Natsu can think of his next attack.

Edit: not to mention once Natsu is close enough to him his Toki no aura will strike him and Natsu can't do much about it, and Ken could use it to aim for a pressure point to either halt Natsu or straight up blow apart of his body.

 

[Rin_Rokudo]

Anyways, while it's true that Ken might have a difficult time initially hitting Natsu, he could strategically follow Natsus attack pattern and think of ahead of his attacks.

Natsu can do just the same. He's adaptable and unpredictable in his fights.

Kenshiro has like I said a passive ki ability that can push back Natsu if he tries to blitz him which will knock Natsu off the ground long enough for Ken to reach him and either grab him or press a pressure point that will disable him.
Won't matter much. The barrier will give way sooner or later due to the sheer number of attacks and Natsu can still dodge Ken's strikes pretty easily.

I should point out, Ken has a very strong resistance against fire, like not even lava can burn his skin, of course natsus Fire is hotter than lava iirc, but coupled with kenshiros Durabilty natsus flame attacks are at a disadvantage here.
That's pretty pointless. Natsu can eaten molten steel since the beginning of the series. His flames are way above the temperature of magma. And as was mentioned, Kenshiro doesn't have resistance to fire, he's just durable enough to withstand it easily.

For reference, Natsu can generate 3000 Celsius heat casually.

I wouldn't say kenshiros range is smaller than Natsus actually, knowing both characters, most of natsus attack focus on close combat(which is Kens forte) and the few moves he has that do have range are about the same as Kens ranged techniques TBH, maybe he has a slightly more range but I wouldn't call it an advantage.
It is though. Natsu has a tendency to combine his attacks with ranged flaming ones and start with them as well. Even if he shoots a Breath attack from way far, Kenshiro can't dodge it because of the speed.

 

[BoomeYang]

Grudgeman1706

Handling heat capable of melting steel is nothing. Natsu could produce that heat since the beginning of the manga.

He doesn't have the speed to even lift his arms and block, let alone perform techniques . I already said what kind of difference in speed it is.

And Kenshiro isn't the only one with brains and skill.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Natsu can do just the same. He's adaptable and unpredictable in his fights

No lies the thing is, Kenshiro has a passive technique called the suieishin or water reflective technique that allows him to copy the opponent style and create perfect counters for said techniques.

I wouldn't call Natsu unpredicable, his moveset and fighting style isn't hard to follow he can just mix up his overs if they aren't working in an opponent. But Ken is a martial art grandmaster who's whole methodology is too observe an opponent in battle and Asimore their style to than over power them.

Won't matter much. The barrier will give way sooner or later due to the sheer number of attacks and Natsu can still dodge Ken's strikes pretty easily

His barrier isn't what you think, it isn't a shield that blocks attacks, it's more like a large aura sphere that once an opener enters can project attacks from all sides against an opponent and strike them. It's always there as long as Kenshiro is alive and awake. So it won't be going any time soon.

That's pretty pointless. Natsu can eaten molten steel since the beginning of the series. His flames are way above the temperature of magma. And as was mentioned, Kenshiro doesn't have resistance to fire, he's just durable enough to withstand it easily.

You don't understand, being super durable doesn't mean fire cannot affect you whatsoever, if you are organic material, fire will be able to penetrate your defense and burn you unless you are resistant to fire itself like Inorganic material like metal or rock in which case it won't affect u as much. Fire and lava and attacks that can melt steel like butter didn't even faze Kenshiro, so while Natsu attack will still hurt him, they won't be as a affective as someone who has not natural resistant to fire. We wouldn't have fire resistance as an ability of anyone can handle fire or high temperatures via Durabilty.


It is though. Natsu has a tendency to combine his attacks with ranged flaming ones and start with them as well. Even if he shoots a Breath attack from way far, Kenshiro can't dodge it because of the speed

That is true, however natsus attack are over all not complicated to follow so as I stated above Ken can work around the range thing regardless, speed won't be so much a problem sinc even has ways as I explained above to over come it.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Handling heat capable of melting steel is nothing. Natsu could produce that heat since the beginning of the manga.

He doesn't have the speed to even lift his arms and block, let alone perform techniques . I already said what kind of difference in speed it is.

And Kenshiro isn't the only one with brains and skill.

The example of the temperature to melt steel was just to show you Kenshiro can handle attacks easily hot enough to melt steel(which is around 2500 Farenheit), also natsus best show case of heat was evaporating sand(while their is not exact number, it should be easily the temperature needed to make sand into glass so at least 3200 F.) which again isn't too far off steels melting point, so Natsu fire won't damage Kenshiro as much as you think.

This fight isn't gunna be like Kenshiro isn't capable of moving or attacking or blocking Natsu attack, I don't want to repeat myself but I explained how Kenshiro can dodge or block or attack Natsu despite the speed advantage.

Also I know Natsu is a skilled and smart fighter, but kenshiros expertise in fighting is far higher than natsus by a mile, he's capable of mastering someone's entire fighting style and pattern just by briefly looking at someones attack making it nearly pointless for them to counter him.not to mention over several dozen techniques to use against Natsu ranging from AOE attacks to attacks that strike even if you are blocking.

Plus in character Natsu is arrogant and Improvises as the fight progress so it will take a very long time to figure out Kens fighting abilities, while Kenshiro only needs to see a few moves and attacks to literally(and I mean literally) figure out how Natsu fights, how his attack patterns look, and how to perfectly counter.

Superman is nowhere near flashes speed, but him And many other vastly slower beings can predict where the flash would be so can Kenshir with Natsu.

Edit: In fiction a speed gap doesn't always mean the opponent will never get to fight or react unless the gap is too, too big.

 

[Rin_Rokudo]

No lies the thing is, Kenshiro has a passive technique called the suieishin or water reflective technique that allows him to copy the opponent style and create perfect counters for said techniques.

He may have that, but as I said Natsu doesn't use a cemented martial art, he's random, and therefore unpredictable. You won't know what do to against fighters like that. Even so, he still can't replicate his fire attacks for obvious reasons. Also, he can analyze them if he sees them, which frankly won't happen because he can't see Natsu in motion due to him being much faster.

His barrier isn't what you think, it isn't a shield that blocks attacks, it's more like a large aura sphere that once an opener enters can project attacks from all sides against an opponent and strike them. It's always there as long as Kenshiro is alive and awake. So it won't be going any time soon.


Even if it does project attacks, Natsu can dodge them. And the damage will accumulate because Natsu will keep striking with flames. His slightly higher AP will make it also easier to penetrate it.

You don't understand, being super durable doesn't mean fire cannot affect you whatsoever.... I get that, I'm just saying that the degree of fire resistance Kenshiro has shown is not nearly enough to even soften the damage he'll take from Natsu's fire. He passively generates ridiculously high amounts of heat, a temperature Kenshiro hasn't faced. I know that fire resistance doesn't mean immunity, just saying it's not nearly enough for the fire Natsu has.

 

[Rin_Rokudo]

Plus in character Natsu is arrogant and Improvises as the fight progress so it will take a very long time to figure out Kens fighting abilities, while Kenshiro only needs to see a few moves and attacks to literally(and I mean literally) figure out how Natsu fights, how his attack patterns look, and how to perfectly counter.

Natsu is not arrogant, he's confident. There's a very big difference in that. And seeing his punches and kicks won't allow him to analyze his flaming attacks.

Superman is nowhere near flashes speed, but him And many other vastly slower beings can predict where the flash would be so can Kenshir with Natsu.

That's pretty stupid if that happens, so it's likely the authors giving others a chance against the Flash. You can't predict anything, if you can't think at the speed the FLash moves.

And as is being said, the difference in speed in perspective is enourmous. It's like you reacting to a Mach2000 character.

Can you react to something moving at the speed of sound? Never. Can you react to something moving 2000 times faster than sound? The answer is pretty obvious. No matter what skill you have, you can't react. That's like saying a grandmaster of martial arts can react to my strikes even if I'm moving at the speed of sound. By the time he realizes what has happened, I've killed him in a hundreds different ways and gone home, even though I don't have any skill in martial arts.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Natsu is not arrogant, he's confident. There's a very big difference in that. And seeing his punches and kicks won't allow him to analyze his flaming attacks with punches and kicks Yes it will, that's how quickly Kenshiro and people of his style pick up other martial arts. Natsu is very much arrogant, Bruh Ive read fairy tail(all of it) and I'll tell you right now and any fan could tell you as well Natsu rushes into fight head strong and doesn't think of the consequences, his whole trope is that he'll just burn through everything with enough nakama power or will.

Also where did you get the assumption Natsu was unpredictable, he's random I'll give you that one , but fighting recklessly =/=unpredicable in combat, his style of fighting is literally bull rushing his opponents than tries to overpower them with fire and hard hits, it is by no means unpredicable.

Unpredictable would be like Juuza of the clouds, an opponent raoh(someon equal and of the same style as Kenshiro.) faced who was so beyond unpredicable wiht his moves even raoh had an incredibly hard time figuring out his next attack.

Edit: I should note raoh eventually does figure out how juuza fights and the battle was prcsticslly over from there.

In natsus case, knowing both characters and how they work, Kenshiro will definitely pick up natsus attack pattern quite easily.

Edit: I'll debate tomorrow gotta sleep

 

[BoomeYang]

Grudgeman1706

I would say you're confusing arrogance with confidence as well. Natsu is not arrogant, he nevers belittles other people's fighting abilities and is just confident in his own abilities. He accepts when others are stronger than him and rather then denying it, he works to improve himself. Arrogance would be something like Vegeta/Kaiba, Natsu is nothing like them personality-wise.

Yes Natsu is unpredictable. By definiton, random is unpredictable. I'm not saying that Kenshiro won't be able to analyze his fighting, just that it's enough to keep him on edge about Natsu's next move.

And he has shown to be a strategic thinker. Like in the fight against Eligor (the wind dude with the scythe), against Yuka(the thickeyebrow guy that could negate magic), against Cobra that could hear his thoughts. He's also fought against comparable strategic thinkers like Gray, Gajeel etc.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Natsu for reasons above right now.

 

[Gargoyle_1]

Natsu's already dead......

Nah I'm sorry I needed to make that.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Ok I'm here to say something.

Looking back to my previous comments, I can understand if to someone it comes off as kinda unpleasant. In my defense though, it's been almost 48 hours since I last got some sleep because of the current workload and I come here just to take a breather. I'm extremely exhausted juggling work, school and doing stuff for others at the same time and apparently I become irritated easily. So my apologies for that.

Having that said, I will look over this thread again and the arguments here when I feel better and will give an opinion.

 

[Byakuya_"Senbonzakura"_Kuchiki]

How would Natsu counter Muso Tensei?

 

[KuuIchigo]

Le bump.

 

[Promestein]

Natsu's only advantage is speed. If he doesn't kill him as quickly as possible, he's fighting someone who's more experienced, more versatile, and much more serious. Kenshiro's stubborn as hell, too, and the feat he scales too is quite casual, so he's a higher level of Large Island. Natsu will need to hit him a lot, very hard. Meanwhile, Kenshiro just has to hit him once or twice. If he has the time to activate Musō Tensei, it'll be even worse.

So yeah, I'm going with Kenshiro.

 

[Cropfist]

Kenshiro for reasons above.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

LordAizenSama, please tell us the names of who voted for the characters

Theirs about 5 for Ken(Prom,me,David,Kuu,a Cropfist) (6 if byakuya voted for Ken although he was never clear so it's not counted yet.)

And 4 for Natsu(Rin, boomyang, Allan, burning full fingers )

One guy just said your already dead and doesn't imply who he voted for and did it as a joke I guess.

 

[Byakuya_"Senbonzakura"_Kuchiki]

Going with Ken now since one he's the better fighter and two he'll use his Muso Tensei and Natsu can't counter that. Even if Natsu is faster he'll get tired eventually thus giving Kenshiro the advantage and win.

 

[Delta3000]

Kenshiro for reasons above. And Natsu is effectively out classed in everything but speed and range.

 

[ZackMoon1234]

I vote for Kenshiro reasons above


Using Grudgemans collected votes, I have updated it

There is about 8 votes for Ken (Prom, Grudge, David, Kuu, Cropfist, Byakuya, Delta, ZackMoon)

And 4 for Natsu (Rin, Boomyang, Allan, Burning Full Fingers)

 

[Chrisras]

Kenshiro reasons above.