Nasuverse Roa Root Level Social Influencing

[Mageman460]

Michael Roa Valdamjong, more commonly known as Roa, of Tsukihime has been tricking us for the longest time. I have been searching tirelessly for proof. I have checked his page here, his Type Moon Wiki page, even on Discord. Every single source I have checked believed the same lie The Infinite Reincarnator forced us to believe. That his soul's durability scales directly to the Root.

So yeah this seems to be a lie. We couldn't find any source on Roa surviving the Root. In fact, Ciel even says Roa transfers his soul to someone else's body, akin to Radio Waves

Spoiler: Image

This is outright just, Roa doesn't really scale to the Root at all. This effects the Roa, Dantes, Ciel, Gilgamesh, and two flavors of Shiki. Though supposedly the Shikis both have Root scaling for MEoDP anyway, but I'm unsure on that. Also, the only pages that really need an update are Roa and the Shikis

Pretty simple.
Agree: @Deagonx , @Maverick_Zero_X, @Sir_Ovens, @Expectro2000xxx, @BestMGQScalerEver, @CRIMPSUMPSKI2, @SweetDao, @ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn, @Eseseso,
Disagree: @Migue79, @TheSilverKing14, @HyperZero95
Neutral:

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Already talked of this in discord, so I naturally agree.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Agree with 1-A social influencing FRA

Hmmm looks fine but isn't MEoDP also basically returning things it affects to The Root or is that more of a result of the death effect.

 

[Deagonx]

This looks fine.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

agree

Hmmm looks fine but isn't MEoDP also basically returning things it affects to The Root or is that more of a result of the death effect.

the MEoDP would probably require their own thread (maybe when I get to the Tsukihime revisions) let's just get 1-A Roa removed for now

 

[SweetDao]

seems fine, I agree

 

[TheSilverKing14]

Michael Roa Valdamjong, more commonly known as Roa, of Tsukihime has been tricking us for the longest time. I have been searching tirelessly for proof. I have checked his page here, his Type Moon Wiki page, even on Discord. Every single source I have checked believed the same lie The Infinite Reincarnator forced us to believe. That his soul's durability scales directly to the Root.

So yeah this seems to be a lie. We couldn't find any source on Roa surviving the Root. In fact, Ciel even says Roa transfers his soul to someone else's body, akin to Radio Waves

Spoiler: Image

This is outright just, Roa doesn't really scale to the Root at all. This effects the Roa, Dantes, Ciel, Gilgamesh, and two flavors of Shiki. Though supposedly the Shikis both have Root scaling for MEoDP anyway, but I'm unsure on that. Also, the only pages that really need an update are Roa and the Shikis

Pretty simple.
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

https://www.tmdict.com/en/chi.mystic-eyes-of-death-perception


Shiki Tohno and Ryougi are both connected to the root even without this.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

Shiki Tohno and Ryougi are both connected to the root even without this.

the MEoDP would probably require their own thread (maybe when I get to the Tsukihime revisions) let's just get 1-A Roa removed for now

 

[Migue79]

Checks out.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I'm not as knowledgeable on Tsukihime as other aspects of the Nasuverse, but this seems fine.

RIP Ciel, Gilgamesh, and Dante's 1-A soul hax.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Seems fine.

 

[KingNanaya]

Would like to see crimson post, as they were the one to add it

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Would like to see crimson post, as they were the one to add it

I second this opinion.

 

[Deagonx]

I believe Crimson expressed having no further interest in Nasu scaling on the site, but I can ask.

 

[KingNanaya]

I believe Crimson expressed having no further interest in Nasu scaling on the site, but I can ask.

that'd be appreciated, thanks.

 

[Eseseso]

Looks fine.

 

[Deagonx]

He said no

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

He said no

Dang, well thanks anyway.

 

[KingNanaya]

So, if I understand correctly, this is just removing all the Roa soul scaling stuff will be gone, 7th Holy Scripture will be removed since it will be rendered useless, and Roa loses his abilities gained through passing through the root? because if so, then I think I'm fine with that. I at least want to see if I can find some counter arguments, just so there's a bit more discussion. give me a bit, since I'm playing BG3 with some friends rn

 

[KingNanaya]

Yeah. I can't find anything about it. If someone can confirm what I asked above, then I can comfortably agree.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I was sent this, but from what I have been able to find, it comes from Hisui's route and is from one of Shiki's drug-induced delusions, or something like that. If anyone knows the full context, and if it affects the arguments or not in the op, please respond.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Would like to see crimson post, as they were the one to add it

He is also in favor of remove this, this topic was already talked on discord since some time ago (and unanimously agreed), it's just that now the thread was made by @Mageman460, if he didn't do it then it would had be @CRIMPSUMPSKI2 with his near Tsuki revisions or me as the last nasu thread of the year.

 

[KingNanaya]

He is also in favor of remove this, this topic was already talked on discord since some time ago (and unanimously agreed), it's just that now the thread was made by @Mageman460, if he didn't do it then it would had be @CRIMPSUMPSKI2 with his near Tsuki revisions or me as the last nasu thread of the year.

ok, cool

So, if I understand correctly, this is just removing all the Roa soul scaling stuff will be gone, 7th Holy Scripture will be removed since it will be rendered useless, and Roa loses his abilities gained through passing through the root? because if so, then I think I'm fine with that. I at least want to see if I can find some counter arguments, just so there's a bit more discussion. give me a bit, since I'm playing BG3 with some friends rn

could you answer this for me then?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

could you answer this for me then?

Yes, remove Roa, 7th Holy Scripture and Dantes 1-A stuff.

 

[KingNanaya]

alright, sounds fine to me then

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

Yes, remove Roa, 7th Holy Scripture and Dantes 1-A stuff.

I think Ciel's profile can stay as it is, it doesn't reference the Root stuff at a glance

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I think Ciel's profile can stay as it is, it doesn't reference the Root stuff at a glance

Yeah, Ciel and Gilgamesh's profile should stay the same, just the potency of the 7th Holy Scripture should be downgraded.

 

[KingNanaya]

Seeing as this is downgrading several things from 1-A to 4D or whatever, it would be best to call in more staff.

 

[TheSilverKing14]

I'm afraid I have to disagree to be honest this only seems fine till you evaluate the evidence against this.

His exceptional point is that he took this soul, which is incalculable and something that disperses as soon as it leaves the envelope of the body, and processed it as something that could be transmitted."

From this theory it became clear that the soul can activate even without a physical body, and as such the soul has come to be treated as “the source of a person.”

The Root, a record of everything in the universe, is said to reside outside the World. It is the beginning and end of all creation. It is the ultimate goal of all magi. The Three Founding Families created the Holy Grail War system as a means to reach the Root.

The soul is a source of a person. guess where the source of everything originates, you get 1000 points if you pass! Anyways the soul returns back to the root as soon as it leaves the mortal meat bag we call a body.

“"That's the power they needed.
They tried to exit into the outer world using that power.
That's the real purpose of the Holy Grail in this land.
The Holy Grail Wars were waged to create a phenomenon, a miracle, that is still out of human reach.
That’s the great ritual to attain immortality that’s been lost to the Einzberns. Not a heroic spirit or a holy spirit, but a soul of a mere human that's fated to disappear from this world. Bringing it about is an act of God."-Heaven’s Feel, Day 14

"Soujuurou: Aozaki. What do you mean no one has returned alive?
Aoko: I mean that no one touching the Root has ever come back. On a global scale. You touch it, you cease to exist on the spot. The very moment the likes of a human soul touches it, it’ll go back to “where it came from" or be absorbed into the Root, or something.
Aoko: So, even the mages who have left their name in history have refrained from touching just that. At the best, they get close to it to stabilize their own magecraft in a hurry.

http://completematerial.pbworks.com/w/page/53399786/General
The true Magic and Root section is where I got this from.

 

[KingNanaya]

I'm afraid I have to disagree to be honest this only seems fine till you evaluate the evidence against this.

The soul is a source of a person. guess where the source of everything originates, you get 1000 points if you pass! Anyways the soul returns back to the root as soon as it leaves the mortal meat bag we call a body.



http://completematerial.pbworks.com/w/page/53399786/General
The true Magic and Root section is where I got this from.

None of this is being contested. It's the fact that none of this mentions Roa, or states that his soul passes through the Root. The OP even sent a scan that said his soul doesn't even pass through the Root, but passes on to a person nearby, or of his choosing.

 

[Mageman460]

I'm afraid I have to disagree to be honest this only seems fine till you evaluate the evidence against this.


The soul is a source of a person. guess where the source of everything originates, you get 1000 points if you pass! Anyways the soul returns back to the root as soon as it leaves the mortal meat bag we call a body.



http://completematerial.pbworks.com/w/page/53399786/General
The true Magic and Root section is where I got this from.

Sure do love seeing the EXACT same argument Marshadow made in Nasuverse General Thread that addresses pretty much none of the points being made. The first quote, which is the Ciel quote I posted in the OP btw, flat out says he "processed [his soul] as something that could be transmitted." It is never stated that Roa's soul goes through the Root every time he dies. Instead we have a direct statement from Ciel, one of his previous reincarnations, saying that his method of reincarnation is more akin to a radio transmitter.

EDIT: Roa is still a mage as a note. What this means is he still aspires to reach The Swirl of the Root. Which wouldn't matter if his soul returns to the Root every time he dies.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

Roa's soul also just directly transfers from SHIKI to Shiki in Ciel's route iirc

 

[TheSilverKing14]

Sure do love seeing the EXACT same argument Marshadow made in Nasuverse General Thread that addresses pretty much none of the points being made. The first quote, which is the Ciel quote I posted in the OP btw, flat out says he "processed [his soul] as something that could be transmitted." It is never stated that Roa's soul goes through the Root every time he dies. Instead we have a direct statement from Ciel, one of his previous reincarnations, saying that his method of reincarnation is more akin to a radio transmitter.

EDIT: Roa is still a mage as a note. What this means is he still aspires to reach The Swirl of the Root. Which wouldn't matter if his soul returns to the Root every time he dies.

bro that addresses nothing when the body dies the soul goes straight to the root this was a plot point in HF and is true for everyone or do you somehow think roa had the third magic? did you even read Tsukihime? roa does not care about the root and nowhere is this implied that he cared about reaching it also you seem to misunderstand how this whole thing with roa works since you seem to imply he would have all the powers if he had root access and the truth, is beyond soul stuff, his body does not resist that stuff and he would have recycle through a new host after his body gets vaped.

 

[TheSilverKing14]

Anyways I am outta here.

 

[HyperZero95]

"You know, don't you? Right, it is the experience of death.
I know what death is, but you do not. That is our difference.
...... Well, as long as something is alive, it cannot experience death. The only one who knows is probably only an infinite reincarnator like me."

"----I know. About death. About the darkness. The nothingness which I have journeyed through so many times----!
To me, death is little more than a common ritual.
Let's say you destroy this body right here. I'll still remain in this world. Why don't you understand it's useless to fight me?"
Roa spreads his arms higher.
Arcueid doesn't answer.

Straight from the Arcueid route in the VN. This is Roa clearly saying that he has experienced death, darkness and "nothingness", and that he has journeyed through it many times. Should be a very clear reference to Akasha. Note that when he states "I'll still remain in this world", he refers to him being able to come back after each death into a new host. Furthermore, in this particular case he has Shiki to transfer himself to in case SHIKI dies, since their lives are linked. When Roa was killed in the Ciel route physically, he immediately passed into Shiki. This is however a special case that has nothing to do with his normal reincarnation method, which consists of cycling through Akasha (Instead of outright being dispersed into nothingness as a soul would normally do upon going back to Akasha) until he is transmitted into a new host (Hence he states that he experienced darkness and nothingness and thought that he had gained Death Perception just like Shiki did).
There is also this scene in KT where Shiki was basically experiencing Roa's older memories, and it seemed like this segment was him once he reached Akasha. He was saying his knowledge was enough to make him go insane if he kept focusing on it. And it was too much for humans.
Roa is literally called the Serpent of Akasha, and he can open a portal for it in his Last Arc in MBAA, which is also titled "Hollow Curse-Seventeen Reincarnations). His reincarnation method being tied to Akasha seems rather self evident.

In addition, in KnK, Araya Souren is actually capable of skipping the Root entirely and transfer his spirit into a new physical form:

It was almost time. Half a day had passed since he switched from the body he was using up until yesterday to the spare he was using now, and his consciousness finally permeated every cell of it. Of course, Araya Souren had not prepared identical bodies in advance in case he died, like some kind of puppet master. In fact, he has never experienced death at all.

Though his body has rotted and crumbled to dust from age several times, his consciousness alone survived unbroken. Araya Souren has remained a solitary existence through to the bitter end.

This is because of his Origin of Stillness, which makes his essence immune to any form of change, including Death. However, notices that it states that Araya had never known death and simply survived until the end ubroken. This is because his spirit didn't pass through Akasha and simply moved onto another body. Yet Roa is explicitly noted as having experienced Death and Journeyed through "nothingness" many times. So there is a clear distinction in the source material with the proposed method of skipping the Root entirely. The only way for Roa to experience death is to cycle through Akasha, if he simply stayed in the world as a soul and directly transferred into his next host, then he would have been the same as Araya, who is however explicitly noted as having never experienced death at all.

As a final note, no. Roa being a mage does not automatically means he aspires to reach the Root. In fact, he doesn't. His objective was to attain "Eternity", as he was not interested into things that could eventually end. That's the opposite of the Root if anything, since it is seen as the end of all things. What Roa cared about was exclusively his research about Eternity. That's the whole reason he became a Dead Apostle: To make himself immortal and continue his research unbothered.

Though I won't add anything else to this thread since I don't really care about this. Just felt like pointing that out.

 

[Violatas]

Told myself I wouldn't bother commenting on these threads anymore but I just wanna say a few things since I was notified about this.

Roa's soul also just directly transfers from SHIKI to Shiki in Ciel's route iirc

That's because SHIKI has Shiki's life force, so when SHIKI died, the life force went back to Shiki, and Roa with it since he was a part of SHIKI, having possessed him.

EDIT: Roa is still a mage as a note. What this means is he still aspires to reach The Swirl of the Root. Which wouldn't matter if his soul returns to the Root every time he dies.

Never ever stated. Roa never aspired to reach the Root. As said above me, he only ever seeked to reach immortality.

 

[KingNanaya]

Roa is still a mage as a note. What this means is he still aspires to reach The Swirl of the Root.

what the others above said. Roa has always just wanted immortality. this was made a point in both versions in tsukihime.

 

[Migue79]

This is Roa clearly saying that he has experienced death, darkness and "nothingness", and that he has journeyed through it many times. Should be a very clear reference to Akasha. Note that when he states "I'll still remain in this world", he refers to him being able to come back after each death into a new host. Furthermore, in this particular case he has Shiki to transfer himself to in case SHIKI dies, since their lives are linked. When Roa was killed in the Ciel route physically, he immediately passed into Shiki. This is however a special case that has nothing to do with his normal reincarnation method, which consists of cycling through Akasha (Instead of outright being dispersed into nothingness as a soul would normally do upon going back to Akasha) until he is transmitted into a new host (Hence he states that he experienced darkness and nothingness and thought that he had gained Death Perception just like Shiki did).

Oh, shit. I glossed over this detail in my recent play-through of the VN. Yeah, that 'nothingness' detail does point to the Root/Akasha.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Straight from the Arcueid route in the VN. This is Roa clearly saying that he has experienced death, darkness and "nothingness", and that he has journeyed through it many times. Should be a very clear reference to Akasha. Note that when he states "I'll still remain in this world", he refers to him being able to come back after each death into a new host. Furthermore, in this particular case he has Shiki to transfer himself to in case SHIKI dies, since their lives are linked. When Roa was killed in the Ciel route physically, he immediately passed into Shiki. This is however a special case that has nothing to do with his normal reincarnation method, which consists of cycling through Akasha (Instead of outright being dispersed into nothingness as a soul would normally do upon going back to Akasha) until he is transmitted into a new host (Hence he states that he experienced darkness and nothingness and thought that he had gained Death Perception just like Shiki did).
There is also this scene in KT where Shiki was basically experiencing Roa's older memories, and it seemed like this segment was him once he reached Akasha. He was saying his knowledge was enough to make him go insane if he kept focusing on it. And it was too much for humans.
Roa is literally called the Serpent of Akasha, and he can open a portal for it in his Last Arc in MBAA, which is also titled "Hollow Curse-Seventeen Reincarnations). His reincarnation method being tied to Akasha seems rather self evident.

In addition, in KnK, Araya Souren is actually capable of skipping the Root entirely and transfer his spirit into a new physical form:



This is because of his Origin of Stillness, which makes his essence immune to any form of change, including Death. However, notices that it states that Araya had never known death and simply survived until the end ubroken. This is because his spirit didn't pass through Akasha and simply moved onto another body. Yet Roa is explicitly noted as having experienced Death and Journeyed through "nothingness" many times. So there is a clear distinction in the source material with the proposed method of skipping the Root entirely. The only way for Roa to experience death is to cycle through Akasha, if he simply stayed in the world as a soul and directly transferred into his next host, then he would have been the same as Araya, who is however explicitly noted as having never experienced death at all.

As a final note, no. Roa being a mage does not automatically means he aspires to reach the Root. In fact, he doesn't. His objective was to attain "Eternity", as he was not interested into things that could eventually end. That's the opposite of the Root if anything, since it is seen as the end of all things. What Roa cared about was exclusively his research about Eternity. That's the whole reason he became a Dead Apostle: To make himself immortal and continue his research unbothered.

Though I won't add anything else to this thread since I don't really care about this. Just felt like pointing that out.

Huh, neat. Thanks for finding that!

(This is just a further reminder that I really have to get around to playing through Tsukihime).

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

just a few corrections, I'm neutral on the Root thing as of rn

Roa is literally called the Serpent of Akasha, and he can open a portal for it in his Last Arc in MBAA, which is also titled "Hollow Curse-Seventeen Reincarnations). His reincarnation method being tied to Akasha seems rather self evident.

that's his reality marble, not the Root (from Melty Blood Archives page 67)

There is also this scene in KT where Shiki was basically experiencing Roa's older memories, and it seemed like this segment was him once he reached Akasha. He was saying his knowledge was enough to make him go insane if he kept focusing on it. And it was too much for humans.

from what I recall, this is from either Hisui's or Ciel's route. Roa doesn't appear in Kagetsu Tohya outside of the Ten Nights of Dream.


I can see the Araya argument working at a glance, but I'm not gonna give too much of an opinion on it yet