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Nasuverse: Global Hax Revisions

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This is some stuff I found from Complete Materials. Thanks to CrimsonStarFallen and Paul Frank for their help.




All servants with Divinity need to have Negation of Resistance, Damage Reduction, and Invulnerability (Of all types, including Physical, Conceptual, and Interdimensional). Divinity functions as a method of breaking through defensive abilities such as Saver's Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig and Vlad III's Protection of Faith.

Magic Resistance should function as Power Nullification, Damage Reduction, and Resistance to Magic, including all the effects listed in this blog. It takes both effects, not just one, and compounds with the normal Magic Resistance effect that normal Servants have. Even an E-rank Magic Resistance reduces the damage of spells. For Normal Humans and servants without the MR skill, they only get Resistance via Rejecting Magical Energy.

All items and beings that possess Mystery should gain Invulnerability and Negation of it, and Non-Physical Interaction. Items with Mystery can only be harmed by things that have sufficient mystery (Just like Servants in that respect), and they are also capable of harming non-physical beings such as Ghosts. They also need Accelerated Development (Passive) of Physical Stats and Abilities as the older an object gets, the more mystery it accumulates and the more powerful it becomes. Even a normal Katana gained the ability to harm servants and cut through magic barriers and space by 500 years old.

  • Items and Beings with at least 500 years of mystery should also get limited Spatial Manipulation and Magic Nullification due to the aforementioned Katana, which is on Ryougi Shiki's page, as it can cut through magical barriers as well as bounded fields, which are separate spatial dimensions.

All characters with Resistance to Soul Manipulation also require Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation due to the Soul containing Concepts and Information. The former is shown with the Conceptual Weapons statement below, and the latter is because Souls are directly translatable into information and can be run through high-end computers, as is shown during the Moon Cell Saga. This is further explained with the statements at the bottom of this CRT.


Conceptual Weapons should have Soul Manipulation, Information Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation on every hit due to being able to kill souls and striking opponents with souls.


"Q: Conceptual Weapons are fixed magical items which execute a predetermined phenomenon. They're soul smashers ("outbreakers") that beat the opponent not physically but with the weight of the soul, but would it be possible to kill only the soul of a normal person, rather than something supernatural?


A: Yes, but the effect would be reduced. Or rather, against a mundane opponent, mere physical attacks would suffice. Physical interference is not possible against formless things, such as manifestations of laws or delusions. That's why Conceptual Weapons exist, because beings that exist via concepts can only be killed by concepts."



Source: Complete Material



Elementals and Marble Phantasms should possess Subjective Reality as well as Probability Manipulation for being able to realize things from one's imagination. Probability Manip is already listed for Marble Phantasms.


"Imagination Realization. As the name suggests, it is the ability to manifest anything you can imagine.


It is the ability possessed by elementals, which are the sense of touch of the natural world. By connecting their will directly to the world, they are able to transfigure the world into whatever environment they imagine. Of course, the level of manifestation varies depending on the scale of the elemental, and it goes without saying that only nature can be transfigured – things that exist independently of nature are immune.


In Tsukihime, Arcueid eliminated Roa by using marble phantasm to turn the layers of the atmosphere in the hallway into a vacuum, like a carving knife slicing up a daikon radish. Though she could not affect Roa himself, it was impossible for him to avoid the finely sliced atmosphere, and he was reduced to nothing but ankles.


(The gap above the floor was the result of a deficiency in Arcueid's imagination.)


Also, in the world of Tsukihime spiritual realms are not alternate dimensions, but rather exist within the world itself. Things like legendary lands and countries of eternal spring are the products of the imagination of whatever elemental rules over them. Consequently, it is possible for humans to wander into them by accident.


The castle in the mountains that Arcueid calls home is actually a product of her marble phantasm."



Source: Melty Blood Act Cadenza PS2 Manual (2006-08-10), p.048


Higher-D Stuff​


Demons and Fiends are Higher-Dimensional beings and should thus get Higher-Dimensional Existence. Magecraft and relevant characters gain much better NPI for being able to interact with them.


"Though the classifications of "Demons" and "Fiends" do exist, their manner of existence is in essence indistinguishable from that of a higher-order lifeform (高次元生命体, kou-jigen seimeitai?, lit. "higher-dimension lifeform") that inhabits a different sphere of civilization (異なる文明圏, koto-naru bunmei-ken?) upon a different planet (異なる惑星, koto-naru wakusei?).


In sum, said existences can, per the recognition of the Universe of Awareness (認識宇宙, ninshiki-uchuu?, lit. "the universe derived of observation / perception"), no longer be discerned as "human."


Their existences would approximate to that of the cosmic horrors (邪神, jashin?, lit. "evil god") of a certain fictitious Mythos popular in the 20th century."



Source: Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: True Demon [Circumstances], p.190



Demons also require Abstract Existence (Type 2) for being formed from and made of desires of Humanity.


The 6th Imaginary Aspect. Existences born of the wishes of humans, passively (受動的な, shuudou-teki-na?, lit. "as acted upon") called forth by human desire. Manifest phantasms (実像幻想, jitsuzou gensou?) that take form via the aggregation of ideation (想念, sounen?, lit. "thoughts"). For materialization (実体化, kittaika?, lit. "manifestation to material") to occur, "a form fabricated by humans" is necessary. Not True Demons, but existences that obtain being by the imposition of a Designation (個体名, kotai-mei?, lit. "unit designation").


Source: Jonnobi: Demon



Magecraft is capable of harming these Higher-Dimensional and Abstract beings, but there is more to keep in mind. Magecraft on its own is Higher-Dimensional in nature, at least 4D. This would scale to magecraft as a whole, essentially giving Smurf hax to everything in the verse, Something that's surprisingly become common as of late with things like Persona, Devil May Cry, and Final Fantasy.


"Once, there had been a miracle on the earth able to materialize the soul.

That, however, was lost in the Great Collapse of the 70s. Since then, accepting their downfall, the magi incorporated the modern science they had once tabooed and gave the “soul” a new definition.

It was “the location of where the conscious was being outputted”, the magical theory of virtual spiritrons.

In the past, the conscious could only be manifested through the body.

But the magi pinpointed the location of the “soul” and succeeded in outputting it to the new frontier, projecting it as an avatar in the cyber world.

With this, the magi transferred themselves to the electronic world and became capable of more advanced information acquisition.

After all, the soul was a higher dimensional energy body and it was quite superior as an information medium. With the announcement of this theory, networking technology if nothing else made significant strides in the new world. The military industrial complex in exchange for their real world weapons development being suspended devoted their resources in development of weapons that were in the cyber world."



Source: Complete Material


TL:DR


Magecraft becomes 4D in potency, something that scales to basically every relevant ability in the verse

Conceptual weapons have Soul, Concept, and Information hax

Magic Resistance also has damage reduction

Divinity negates things like resistance and invulnerability

Mystery gains Invulnerability and Negation of it, as well as some stuff like NPI, Accelerated Development, and Spatial Manipulation

Nasuverse souls contain concepts and information, which should be applied to all soulhax abilities in the verse

Elementals have Subjective Reality and Probability Manipulation

Demons have Higher-Dimensional Existence, and characters are capable of hitting them
 
I agree, also can you add this to the higher D stuff?

「たとえば埋葬機関にいつのまにか混ざっていたシスターですね。彼女はサバトによって悪魔化し、高次元の感 覚を得た事でこの次元では全能になったと言います。

"For example, the sister who somehow got mixed up with the burial agency. She was demonized by Sabbat and became omnipotent in this dimension because of her higher dimensional senses.

Source
 
All servants with Divinity need to have Negation of Resistance, Damage Reduction, and Invulnerability (Of all types, including Physical, Conceptual, and Interdimensional). Divinity functions as a method of breaking through defensive abilities such as Saver's Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig and Vlad III's Protection of Faith.
That's a weakness of their ability rather than a power for those with Divinity. There's similar skills in Fate who don't care about Divinity.
Big no here.
Magic Resistance should function as Power Nullification, Damage Reduction, and Resistance to Magic, including all the effects listed in this blog. It takes both effects, not just one, and compounds with the normal Magic Resistance effect that normal Servants have. Even an E-rank Magic Resistance reduces the damage of spells. For Normal Humans and servants without the MR skill, they only get Resistance via Rejecting Magical Energy.
Agree.
All items and beings that possess Mystery should gain Invulnerability and Negation of it, and Non-Physical Interaction. Items with Mystery can only be harmed by things that have sufficient mystery (Just like Servants in that respect), and they are also capable of harming non-physical beings such as Ghosts. They also need Accelerated Development (Passive) of Physical Stats and Abilities as the older an object gets, the more mystery it accumulates and the more powerful it becomes. Even a normal Katana gained the ability to harm servants and cut through magic barriers and space by 500 years old.

  • Items and Beings with at least 500 years of mystery should also get limited Spatial Manipulation and Magic Nullification due to the aforementioned Katana, which is on Ryougi Shiki's page, as it can cut through magical barriers as well as bounded fields, which are separate spatial dimensions.

All characters with Resistance to Soul Manipulation also require Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation due to the Soul containing Concepts and Information. The former is shown with the Conceptual Weapons statement below, and the latter is because Souls are directly translatable into information and can be run through high-end computers, as is shown during the Moon Cell Saga. This is further explained with the statements at the bottom of this CRT.
Not sure about the "soul translatable into information means affecting souls is information manipulation". In Extella you have Hakuno being divided in soul, mind and body yet we won't give resistance to info Manipulation to anyone resisting mind **** or biological Manipulation.

Also it's more a servants' weakness than negating invulnerability. It's the same as stuff like "only stands can beat stands".
Conceptual Weapons should have Soul Manipulation, Information Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation on every hit due to being able to kill souls and striking opponents with souls.


"Q: Conceptual Weapons are fixed magical items which execute a predetermined phenomenon. They're soul smashers ("outbreakers") that beat the opponent not physically but with the weight of the soul, but would it be possible to kill only the soul of a normal person, rather than something supernatural?

A: Yes, but the effect would be reduced. Or rather, against a mundane opponent, mere physical attacks would suffice. Physical interference is not possible against formless things, such as manifestations of laws or delusions. That's why Conceptual Weapons exist, because beings that exist via concepts can only be killed by concepts."


Source: Complete Material
Fine with soul stuff.
Elementals and Marble Phantasms should possess Subjective Reality as well as Probability Manipulation for being able to realize things from one's imagination. Probability Manip is already listed for Marble Phantasms.
Agree.
Higher-D Stuff

Demons and Fiends are Higher-Dimensional beings and should thus get Higher-Dimensional Existence. Magecraft and relevant characters gain much better NPI for being able to interact with them.

"Though the classifications of "Demons" and "Fiends" do exist, their manner of existence is in essence indistinguishable from that of a higher-order lifeform (高次元生命体, kou-jigen seimeitai?, lit. "higher-dimension lifeform") that inhabits a different sphere of civilization (異なる文明圏, koto-naru bunmei-ken?) upon a different planet (異なる惑星, koto-naru wakusei?).

In sum, said existences can, per the recognition of the Universe of Awareness (認識宇宙, ninshiki-uchuu?, lit. "the universe derived of observation / perception"), no longer be discerned as "human."

Their existences would approximate to that of the cosmic horrors (邪神, jashin?, lit. "evil god") of a certain fictitious Mythos popular in the 20th century."


Source: Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: True Demon [Circumstances], p.190

Demons also require Abstract Existence (Type 2) for being formed from and made of desires of Humanity.

The 6th Imaginary Aspect. Existences born of the wishes of humans, passively (受動的な, shuudou-teki-na?, lit. "as acted upon") called forth by human desire. Manifest phantasms (実像幻想, jitsuzou gensou?) that take form via the aggregation of ideation (想念, sounen?, lit. "thoughts"). For materialization (実体化, kittaika?, lit. "manifestation to material") to occur, "a form fabricated by humans" is necessary. Not True Demons, but existences that obtain being by the imposition of a Designation (個体名, kotai-mei?, lit. "unit designation").

Source: Jonnobi: Demon

Magecraft is capable of harming these Higher-Dimensional and Abstract beings, but there is more to keep in mind. Magecraft on its own is Higher-Dimensional in nature, at least 4D. This would scale to magecraft as a whole, essentially giving Smurf hax to everything in the verse, Something that's surprisingly become common as of late with things like Persona, Devil May Cry, and Final Fantasy.

"Once, there had been a miracle on the earth able to materialize the soul.

That, however, was lost in the Great Collapse of the 70s. Since then, accepting their downfall, the magi incorporated the modern science they had once tabooed and gave the “soul” a new definition.

It was “the location of where the conscious was being outputted”, the magical theory of virtual spiritrons.

In the past, the conscious could only be manifested through the body.

But the magi pinpointed the location of the “soul” and succeeded in outputting it to the new frontier, projecting it as an avatar in the cyber world.

With this, the magi transferred themselves to the electronic world and became capable of more advanced information acquisition.

After all, the soul was a higher dimensional energy body and it was quite superior as an information medium. With the announcement of this theory, networking technology if nothing else made significant strides in the new world. The military industrial complex in exchange for their real world weapons development being suspended devoted their resources in development of weapons that were in the cyber world."


Source: Complete Material


TL:DR


Magecraft becomes 4D in potency, something that scales to basically every relevant ability in the verse

Conceptual weapons have Soul, Concept, and Information hax

Magic Resistance also has damage reduction

Divinity negates things like resistance and invulnerability

Mystery gains Invulnerability and Negation of it, as well as some stuff like NPI, Accelerated Development, and Spatial Manipulation

Nasuverse souls contain concepts and information, which should be applied to all soulhax abilities in the verse

Elementals have Subjective Reality and Probability Manipulation

Demons have Higher-Dimensional Existence, and characters are capable of hitting them
Neutral on higher D Magecraft and the better NPI.
 
I trust Yuri judgement here, good things i've contacted to the others members to come here so we can reaching a conclusion quick
 
That's a weakness of their ability rather than a power for those with Divinity. There's similar skills in Fate who don't care about Divinity.
Big no here.

Agree.

Not sure about the "soul translatable into information means affecting souls is information manipulation". In Extella you have Hakuno being divided in soul, mind and body yet we won't give resistance to info Manipulation to anyone resisting mind **** or biological Manipulation.

Also it's more a servants' weakness than negating invulnerability. It's the same as stuff like "only stands can beat stands".

Fine with soul stuff.

Agree.

Neutral on higher D Magecraft and the better NPI.
This but agreed on data manip resistance, higher D and NPI
 
All servants with Divinity need to have Negation of Resistance, Damage Reduction, and Invulnerability (Of all types, including Physical, Conceptual, and Interdimensional). Divinity functions as a method of breaking through defensive abilities such as Saver's Enlightenment of the Sacred Fig and Vlad III's Protection of Faith.
Agree with Yuri on this part.

Magic Resistance should function as Power Nullification, Damage Reduction, and Resistance to Magic, including all the effects listed in this blog. It takes both effects, not just one, and compounds with the normal Magic Resistance effect that normal Servants have. Even an E-rank Magic Resistance reduces the damage of spells. For Normal Humans and servants without the MR skill, they only get Resistance via Rejecting Magical Energy.
Agree here.

Conceptual Weapons should have Soul Manipulation, Information Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation on every hit due to being able to kill souls and striking opponents with souls.


"Q: Conceptual Weapons are fixed magical items which execute a predetermined phenomenon. They're soul smashers ("outbreakers") that beat the opponent not physically but with the weight of the soul, but would it be possible to kill only the soul of a normal person, rather than something supernatural?


A: Yes, but the effect would be reduced. Or rather, against a mundane opponent, mere physical attacks would suffice. Physical interference is not possible against formless things, such as manifestations of laws or delusions. That's why Conceptual Weapons exist, because beings that exist via concepts can only be killed by concepts."
Agree with with soul and concept manip for conceptual weapon, neutral on info(but leaning on agree).

Agree with Subjective Reality and Probability Manip.

Agree with abstract type 2, but do we have demons profile here? I can only think of Kiara, saying the she's reaching they're lvl.

Neutral on Higher D magecraft. Well if servants are Higher D soul, I can see why magecraft can have higher D potency.
 
Juste one thing it seem that some power/spell are not on the blog for the MR resistance, (it doesn't have some of the spell of medea and other mage guy).

It should be added in résistance they thing that they can do with magecraft.

From Medea Profile:

Light Manipulation: because Rain of Light (Machia Hecatia Graea).

Ice Manipulation (Can manipulate ice and summon it down on enemies)


Telekinesis (Lifted some bodies into the air)

Air Manipulation, Disease Manipulation (Created a plume of air with a simple gesture. Can control Plague Winds with Aero)

Density Manipulation (Manipulated the density of air to trap Saber in a membrane of it)

Thread Manipulation, Body Puppetry (Can create threads of mana that force the affected to move according to how she wishes, preventing them from even screaming)

Transmutation, Size Manipulation, Sealing (Can perform divine punishment, such as turning people into pigs or trapping them into tiny worlds)

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation, BFR (Can send people away by teleporting them with Enforced Transference, pulling them out of the third dimension)

Illusion Creation, Sense Manipulation (Created a detailed illusion that trapped Atrum Galliasta, altering his senses to make him not realize that he was being actively immolated)

Poison Manipulation, Biological Manipulation, Fragrance Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Sleep Manipulation, Soul Manipulation (She could develop an Incense, a gaseous poison that "Destroys love", leaves people impotent, and makes them comatose, and used this to steal souls during the UBW route)

From Caster Gilles de Rais:

Blood Manipulation (Caused blood on the ground to evaporate into mist)

Fear Manipulation (Can rouse the fear of the unknown in others)

From Archimedes :

Fate Manipulation (Can cast a Time Lock, which makes events impossible to change past a certain point)

Souren Araya:
Plant Manipulation (used his Magecraft to create an enhanced version of Cannabis, imbued with the concept of Consumption)

Touko Aozaki:
Hypnotism (Via wards and spells)

And with Rin that have gravity manipulation but i don't see the justification.
 
Agree with yuri aswell, if paul looked over this im leaning agree with everything. i trust his judgement.
 
Items and Beings with at least 500 years of mystery should also get limited Spatial Manipulation and Magic Nullification due to the aforementioned Katana, which is on Ryougi Shiki's page, as it can cut through magical barriers as well as bounded fields, which are separate spatial dimensions.
I think this is only specific to Shiki's katana. So many items and beings surpass this katana in terms of age and yet they don't have the ability to slice through space, and some of them struggle against bounded fields.

Btw this seems like a big upgrade for characters who use bounded fields, the first people that comes to mind are Summer Musashi and Artoria.
 
Okay. Thank you for helping out.
 
Agreed with most of everything here.

I do disagree with Yuri on Mystery. It has been repetedly stated that higher mystery trumps lower Mystery, and that things with no Mystery at all can't harm things with Mystery.

"A fantastic race.
As it sounds, they are beings that exist only in fantasy.
Demihumans like sprites and giants.
Demonic beasts like demons and dragons.
As their very existence is a "divine mystery", it is said that they themselves surpass magic.

It is the law that a divine mystery will be eliminated by a greater divine mystery.
As magic stored its power in knowledge,
the fantastic races store their power in their long lifespan.
Even if one masters magic as a human, that is only about the last five hundred years.
For those who have lived since ancient times, a five hundred year old divine mystery is not even worthy competition."-Fate/Stay Night's Fate route

Also worth bringing up Lugh from Mahoya, who was immune to anything modern magi could throw at him via his absurd Mystery. Also worth noting that before the Textures came to be, Mystery was the thing that held everything together, and the laws of physics didn't exist.

So, yeah, I think Mystery having Invulnerability and Negation of it is fine.

I agree on the 4-D stuff, if not for everything then at least for all soul/mental magecraft. OP shows souls are higher dimensional, and there is even more evidence for it.

63-HF07-14-61-1.jpg

So I think that's fine.
 
Agreed with most of everything here.

I do disagree with Yuri on Mystery. It has been repetedly stated that higher mystery trumps lower Mystery, and that things with no Mystery at all can't harm things with Mystery.

"A fantastic race.
As it sounds, they are beings that exist only in fantasy.
Demihumans like sprites and giants.
Demonic beasts like demons and dragons.
As their very existence is a "divine mystery", it is said that they themselves surpass magic.

It is the law that a divine mystery will be eliminated by a greater divine mystery.
As magic stored its power in knowledge,
the fantastic races store their power in their long lifespan.
Even if one masters magic as a human, that is only about the last five hundred years.
For those who have lived since ancient times, a five hundred year old divine mystery is not even worthy competition."-Fate/Stay Night's Fate route

Also worth bringing up Lugh from Mahoya, who was immune to anything modern magi could throw at him via his absurd Mystery. Also worth noting that before the Textures came to be, Mystery was the thing that held everything together, and the laws of physics didn't exist.

So, yeah, I think Mystery having Invulnerability and Negation of it is fine.
Beating the weakest divinity with a higher one isn't Negation, it is just a power system requirement. Negation would be hurting them despite having way weaker mystery or no mystery at all.

I'm kind of against it qualifying as actual Invulnerability and rather as some passive kind of Power Nullification since it basically eliminate weaker mystery.

At best I could see "limited Invulnerability" with an explanation of how it works; but surpassing it by having more mystery isn't Negation in any way.
 
i also wonder why we give mystery to characters that are outside nasuverse in vs matches i get that we want matches but that isn't how it works in this site like we don't give characters with strong willpower resistance to despardo stuff so that should get yeeted
 
i also wonder why we give mystery to characters that are outside nasuverse in vs matches i get that we want matches but that isn't how it works in this site like we don't give characters with strong willpower resistance to despardo stuff so that should get yeeted
I always understood that as under ''Verse Equalization", specially in cases where it makes sense even in-Nasuverse, such as someone using a 1000yo weapon with history/similar.
 
I always understood that as under ''Verse Equalization", specially in cases where it makes sense even in-Nasuverse, such as someone using a 1000yo weapon with history/similar.
yea i get that but it's still "giving" mystery to other characters that normally wouldn't have said power
like i'm fine if it's fight in nasuverse ( there's location profiles now ) but normally verse equal shouldn't give a character something they don't have in their verse
and mystery is kinda weird since it's not a universal energy system or anything like that and i didn't find any other verse that has a similar mechanic
for verse equal to take effect
 
Beating the weakest divinity with a higher one isn't Negation, it is just a power system requirement. Negation would be hurting them despite having way weaker mystery or no mystery at all.
But if people with Mystery can hurt others with Mystery, then that "power system" should apply outside of the verse and let them negate similar Invulnerability.

I'm kind of against it qualifying as actual Invulnerability and rather as some passive kind of Power Nullification since it basically eliminate weaker mystery.

At best I could see "limited Invulnerability" with an explanation of how it works; but surpassing it by having more mystery isn't Negation in any way.
But that's not how it works. As said, in the Nasuverse, Mystery predates the laws of physics and our understanding of space-time as a whole. It's the reason why beings with Mystery are immune to everything without Mystery.

Mash:
So the Tower is the main body, and the lance is its remote terminal?

Holmes:
A satisfactory example, Miss Kyrielight.
The Tower stands at the end of the world, and its administrator wields the lance.
The question is, why does the Tower pierce the planet?
There is a theory that our world — the human world — is nothing more than one of the textured layers that wrap the surface of the planet, like a carpet.
To the planet, this is the consciousness of the intelligent lifeforms that reign supreme. In other words, our physical laws.
The “carpet” that maintains the laws of physics is our world. It is stitched to the planet so that it does not peel away.
This seems to be the phenomenon called the Tower of the End. It is also not limited to Britain.-Camelot, Section 14

Be mindful of the whydunit.
Heroic Spirits and mages may not be bound by the laws of physics, but they cannot manipulate their own motives.-Lady Reines Case Files Event

Screenshot_20200228-205713_Fate_GO.jpg


So yes, I do believe anything with Mystery should have Invulnerability and passive Power Null. It may be a part of a verse's power system, but that doesn't mean that power system would suddely stop working or not be listed. We never do that, as far as I am aware.
 
So yes, I do believe anything with Mystery should have Invulnerability and passive Power Null. It may be a part of a verse's power system, but that doesn't mean that power system would suddely stop working or not be listed. We never do that, as far as I am aware.
There is a little problem with that, however. It has been shown in Mahou Tsukai no Yoru more than once that there is wiggle room in said ''Invulnerability'' - Lugh having his heart destroyed by Soujurou double hit combo and changing mentally so much that Tohko called him an imperfect being after he's known defeat, magical energy itself being capable, through sheer amount, of affecting even beings like Flat Snark, the strongest Ploy and a millenial old mystery (somehow related to the first magic?), Aoko destroying Primordial Runes replications with her attacks...

And there's also cases such as Ryougi Shiki, which body (that houses the ''kara''/[ ] personality) is called itself a mystery, while still being human, could be physically damaged by Araya grip strength and would've died from falling from Xth floor. And Kuji Kanesada, which was a 500yo katana said to have great mystery broke in this same episode.

It's not that simple even in-verse. Soujurou, Redshift Aoko - even in FSN, with Emiya, the idea was already mentioned - and the Breathing/Walking ''synchronizing with Nature''/being one with the Nature/''killing youself-ego'' by itself giving abilities far beyong anything reasonable, and allowing better use and efficacy of magecraft itself makes things more complex. And, even though I've it to read a complete and trustworthy translation, El-Melloi II Adventure Files seems to indicate this was the way/a lot similar to the way Magic/Magecraft was performed in the Age of Gods, which we have been told so many times is incomparably stronger.
 
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at the very least this one was explicitly because aoko had more mysteries, so not really ignoring the rules
No, she hadn't. The ''spell'' she is using vs the Runes is the same she used throughout the others chapters, mere human magecraft - and as magecraft, it accumulates power/mystery through knowledge, and has only existed after 0 AD. In comparison, Primordial Runes are true Age of the Gods creations.

To complement my previous post - I believe Crimson is equating ''having Mystery'' with ''being a Mystery'', two very distinct things.
 
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There is a little problem with that, however. It has been shown in Mahou Tsukai no Yoru more than once that there is wiggle room in said ''Invulnerability'' - Lugh having his heart destroyed by Soujurou
But Soujirou could affect him thanks to his own Mystery tho. That's not an anti-feat, it's a feat for Soujirou.


Aoko destroying Primordial Runes replications with her attacks..
Isn't Aoko's firepower said to be equal to a Servant's? Even then, that seems more like an outlier than anything, considering how the runes are hyped in FGO.


And there's also cases such as Ryougi Shiki, which body (that houses the ''kara''/[ ] personality) is called itself a mystery, while still being human, could be physically damaged by Araya grip strength and would've died from falling from Xth floor. And Kuji Kanesada, which was a 500yo katana said to have great mystery broke in this same episode.
Araya himself has Mystery tho. He's 300 years old and has the sacred remains of Buddha in his arm, this isn't anything that contradicts it. (Except for Ryougi, since she is hurt by normal explosions and such, but she's kind of inconsistent in that front, specially when you consider her in Fate/Extra)
To complement my previous post - I believe Crimson is equating ''having Mystery'' with ''being a Mystery'', two very distinct things.
How exactly, may I ask? Servant Invulnerability against modern world things stems from their Mystery. I haven't seen anything that would make it not be listed.
 
But Soujirou could affect him thanks to his own Mystery tho. That's not an anti-feat, it's a feat for Soujirou.
It's never said he has any Mystery. He literally breaks his arm because of the straight punch to Lugh's chest. And after that, it's said there was literally no real damage, because Lugh is an incarnated elemental yada yada.

Isn't Aoko's firepower said to be equal to a Servant's? Even then, that seems more like an outlier than anything, considering how the runes are hyped in FGO.
It's also called something different from standard Nature Interference, what most would associate with Magecraft, in so far as it is literally the simplest and most basic application of ''flow'' of imaginary/magical energy -> outputting it as heat. And as it's shown in the Flat Snark scene, the difference in ''power'' of said spell, even against an obviously older and stronger Mystery, Flat Snark, could be overcome throught sheer output/amount.

Araya himself has Mystery tho. He's 300 years old and has the sacred remains of Buddha in his arm, this isn't anything that contradicts it. (Except for Ryougi, since she is hurt by normal explosions and such, but she's kind of inconsistent in that front, specially when you consider her in Fate/Extra)
Humans do not gain Mystery with age, they are not Phantasmal Species. The Sarira mystery and function is clearly stated to be something along the lines of a life that became extinguished while still alive/MEoDP-counter and nowhere is mentioned as having any offensive capacities whatsoever, nor is it mentioned as being used. He crushed Shiki's skull through sheer grip strength.

How exactly, may I ask? Servant Invulnerability against modern world things stems from their Mystery. I haven't seen anything that would make it not be listed.
Servants = Mystery in themselves, as they are materialized spiritual bodies of Ether
Kuji Kanesada = has Mystery as a 500yo sword, still a physical sword
Ryougi Shiki's Body = ???? a mystery while still being human, ''eastern philosophy can be deep like that'' bullshit non-explanation


And going beyond, in the LB6 we learn Fairies, the Elementals, not those who only clad themselves as fairies through human ideation, even as spiritual beings, can be harmed by ''cold iron''.
 
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It's never said he has any Mystery
Except he has it:

"
Nasu:
This is the deliciousness of living together. Three people who shouldn't be able to tolerate each other, without changing their own values and rules, living together. Of course, there are also things that got damaged.
For example, when Soujuro first arrived from the mountains in Chapter 1, he was stronger than any other TYPE-MOON protagonist. As he got used to civilization, and settled down as an "individual," he gradually became weaker. 「Mahoyo」's topics are really things like "urban and wilderness" and "advancing civilization." People who have no knowledge of things outside of nature, fallen as a creature due to being too close to happiness."

If that's not Mystery I don't know what is.
Humans do not gain Mystery with age, they are not Phantasmal Species.
Araya is not a human though, he's a monster/living-dead. There's a Nasu statement that says he's a power house on the level of Kouma, who is a Mystery.

Servants = Mystery in themselves, as they are materialized spiritual bodies of Ether
Kuji Kanesada = has Mystery as a 500yo sword, still a physical sword
Ryougi Shiki's Body = ???? a mystery while still being human, ''eastern philosophy can be deep like that'' bullshit non-explanation
So you propose Servants get the Invulnerability still?
 
So what have Yuri and other staff members accepted here?
 
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