Nasuverse: Global Hax Revisions

[LehenDuo]

Except he has it:

"
Nasu:
This is the deliciousness of living together. Three people who shouldn't be able to tolerate each other, without changing their own values and rules, living together. Of course, there are also things that got damaged.
For example, when Soujuro first arrived from the mountains in Chapter 1, he was stronger than any other TYPE-MOON protagonist. As he got used to civilization, and settled down as an "individual," he gradually became weaker. 「Mahoyo」's topics are really things like "urban and wilderness" and "advancing civilization." People who have no knowledge of things outside of nature, fallen as a creature due to being too close to happiness."

If that's not Mystery I don't know what is.

There literally isn't ONE mention of Mystery... or of ''power'', ''magic'', or anything at all...

Araya is not a human though, he's a monster/living-dead. There's a Nasu statement that says he's a power house on the level of Kouma, who is a Mystery.

A powerhouse of the same type as Kouma. That quote is when he's comparing the fighting styles of Araya with someone else, Tohko if I recall correctly, and says Tohko is a strategy type of fighter, while Araya is a power house. Don't remember if it's in the same quote, but he also says Alba is like a fighting game character that spams Specials.

So you propose Servants get the Invulnerability still?

Invulnerability? No
Shiki's body was itself a Mystery and she would've died from the fall when defeating Araya.
But, similarly to Lugh, they are not human, they in themselves are Mystery and therefore play by different rules.
They are by their nature ''above the mundane''. ''Magical Energy'', which isn't directly related to Mystery, but said to be the energy used to reenact it, has been shown to affect such being, and as I mentioned before, Breathing/Walking, etc.


I do agree with the Magic Resistance additions and with the Probability Manipulation of Elementals though. (Not with Subjetive Reality, though - it's not subjective and it has to be within the realm of possibility through the accumulation of ''impossibly low % events'', you can choose the 1 white marble out of 1000 marbles ''infinite times'', but you cannot make the 1000 marbles white yada yada.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

There literally isn't ONE mention of Mystery... or of ''power'', ''magic'', or anything at all...

It's quite literally stated that he is the strongest Type Moon character but his strength diminishes because of his integration within society. Just like Mystery does. You don't need things spelled out to realize what they mean.

A powerhouse of the same type as Kouma. That quote is when he's comparing the fighting styles of Araya with someone else, Tohko if I recall correctly, and says Tohko is a strategy type of fighter, while Araya is a power house. Don't remember if it's in the same quote, but he also says Alba is like a fighting game character that spams Specials.

Still doesn't disprove the fact that he's a 300 year old living dead who's been body hopping for god knows how long.

Invulnerability? No
Shiki's body was itself a Mystery and she would've died from the fall when defeating Araya.
But, similarly to Lugh, they are not human, they in themselves are Mystery and therefore play by different rules.
They are by their nature ''above the mundane''. ''Magical Energy'', which isn't directly related to Mystery, but said to be the energy used to reenact it, has been shown to affect such being, and as I mentioned before, Breathing/Walking, etc.

I'm not entirely sure what this is even proposing, if I'm being honest. Could you try explaining more? What does "play by different rules" mean in this context? Because it has been stated before that things with no Mystery can't hurt things with Mystery, and there are several references to them not being bound by the laws of physics.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

So what have Yuri and other staff members accepted here?

I think Yuri's the only staff here? But everything except the Invulnerability (which is still being contended and tbh I don't really feel that strong about it anyway) and soul=info has been, I think. He was neutral on 4-D stuff but a lot of people seem to agree with it.

Also, I don't know if Paul is gonna be active for a while.

 

[Loyd]

Also, I don't know if Paul is gonna be active for a while.

feels bad man.
i think i've gotten to lenient with the 4-D energy= smurf

soul/mental magecraft. OP shows souls are higher dimensional, and there is even more evidence for it.

but in this case im leaning agree with 4-D aswell if not this atleast.

 

[LehenDuo]

It's quite literally stated that he is the strongest Type Moon character but his strength diminishes because of his integration within society. Just like Mystery does. You don't need things spelled out to realize what they mean.

Which is, in story, correlated with moments of him losing his control over his breathing, as in the scene of his ''fight'' vs Aoko before Puppet Aoko shows up. And then, vs Lugh, he is said to be breathing correctly yada yada and goes on to do the impossible of affecting Lugh, even if breaking his arm in the process. Again, Breathing and Walking, it's a thing since FSN...

Still doesn't disprove the fact that he's a 300 year old living dead who's been body hopping for god knows how long.

Humans still don't accumulate Mystery with age. Only Phantasmal Species do that.
Humans accumulate Mystery through Knowledge.

I'm not entirely sure what this is even proposing, if I'm being honest. Could you try explaining more? What does "play by different rules" mean in this context? Because it has been stated before that things with no Mystery can't hurt things with Mystery, and there are several references to them not being bound by the laws of physics.

MirrorMoon translation is bad... The part about Servants and conventional/mundane weapons specially.

I'm suggesting something akin to Tradition Protection.

Here

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

MirrorMoon translation is bad... The part about Servants and conventional/mundane weapons specially.

I'm suggesting something akin to Tradition Protection.

You can't just say "translation bad" and not give an alternative one to prove that.

Are you suggesting a new power to be created or...?

 

[LehenDuo]

You can't just say "translation bad" and not give an alternative one to prove that.

Are you suggesting a new power to be created or...?

I mean, anyone that has delved into Nasuverse for long enough knows and has seen multiple examples of Mirror Moon translating things in non sensical ways... It's just as KnK and cokesato translation. To use Mirror Moon translation is the thing that makes no sense '-'
You also has to prove that the translation/source you are using is good, you know...?

And I've linked one translation of the specific part about servants, spiritual bodies and weapons. It's in the ''Here''.
Fallacies translations, even if not so ''easy to read'', don't add or remove parts because reasons and he tends to include any awkward kanji/concept with an explanation of why he chose X word.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Ah, seems I missed that. Then yeah, fair enough.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Since I was pinged here multiple times for whatever reason, I'll give input

The stuff in the op seems fine to me, whatever Crimson agreed with is probably good, as for the list of stuff for MR to protect against, since I saw it get mentioned, no, it's not complete currently since I stopped several months ago, so that's why it's missing stuff from certain people

As for the whole argument I'm seeing be mentioned about servants and their conventional weaponry immunity, and arguing it's a bad TL, I'd just like to remind everyone that this is doubled down on in Apoc, where they specified that even things like debris from a fight between people wouldn't affect the servant unless it had been contaminated with magical energy

The last point I'd like to address that I saw is that humans don't gain age with mystery. Afaik, this is never actually said they just say it accumulates with age, it's just, wouldn't you know it, no human lives to the age where they could actually start doing so, except for like, manga Gudako. Everyone else of sufficient age just outright isn't a human, and just have mystery for other reasons already.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

oh no, he lives

 

[LehenDuo]

The last point I'd like to address that I saw is that humans don't gain age with mystery. Afaik, this is never actually said they just say it accumulates with age, it's just, wouldn't you know it, no human lives to the age where they could actually start doing so, except for like, manga Gudako. Everyone else of sufficient age just outright isn't a human, and just have mystery for other reasons already.

Incorrect. It very explictly said in FSN that the accumulation of power through age is the ''way of being'' of Phantasmal Species, those who can only live in fantasy. It's said in the same scene Magecraft ALLOWS the accumulation of power through knowledge.

As for the whole argument I'm seeing be mentioned about servants and their conventional weaponry immunity, and arguing it's a bad TL, I'd just like to remind everyone that this is doubled down on in Apoc, where they specified that even things like debris from a fight between people wouldn't affect the servant unless it had been contaminated with magical energy

Which is known since the beginning, as it's said even as a Spiritual Body, Servants cannot go through objects with high concentration of magical energy. If anything, this reinforces the idea that Magical Energy alone can affect Spiritual Bodies/Servants/etc.

 

[Antvasima]

I think Yuri's the only staff here? But everything except the Invulnerability (which is still being contended and tbh I don't really feel that strong about it anyway) and soul=info has been, I think. He was neutral on 4-D stuff but a lot of people seem to agree with it.

Also, I don't know if Paul is gonna be active for a while.

Okay. I suppose that what Yuri accepted can probably be applied then, in lack of better options, as long as there are no serious complaints.

 

[Newendigo]

All items and beings that possess Mystery should gain Invulnerability and Negation of it, and Non-Physical Interaction. Items with Mystery can only be harmed by things that have sufficient mystery (Just like Servants in that respect), and they are also capable of harming non-physical beings such as Ghosts. They also need Accelerated Development (Passive) of Physical Stats and Abilities as the older an object gets, the more mystery it accumulates and the more powerful it becomes. Even a normal Katana gained the ability to harm servants and cut through magic barriers and space by 500 years old.

Items and Beings with at least 500 years of mystery should also get limited Spatial Manipulation and Magic Nullification due to the aforementioned Katana, which is on Ryougi Shiki's page, as it can cut through magical barriers as well as bounded fields, which are separate spatial dimensions.

My main concern would be mostly any item with the quality having no only invulnerability, but also spatial manip.

Beings with mystery being immune to conventional damage? Okay I can understand it, it has been stated and implied enough times to be case, but the items I would like actual examples.

Because if anything that is 500 year old is immune to everything that is not mysterious, then things like the ruins from camelot and the building from which Heracles got his axe-sword (that just a slab of rock) wouldn't be affected by simple things such as the age of time.

As for the spatial stuff, was not this dimesional thing something from Arayas's specific Bounded Field? Medea set up a bounded field in Ryu's temple and that was not treated like a different spatial dimesion iirc.

 

[LehenDuo]

As for the spatial stuff, was not this dimesional thing something from Arayas's specific Bounded Field? Medea set up a bounded field in Ryu's temple and that was not treated like a different spatial dimesion iirc.

It's not really different spatial dimensions. Even Tohko Bounded Field around Garan no Dou wasn't in any way separated from the normal dimension - the only thing you needed to go through the boundary was the ability to physically move, so much so that Kokutou, a normal human, ends up there - it was actually more along the lines of a stealth/hiding field, with some particularities.

Going a bit into the Nasubabble, Bound Fields are topographic magecraft - aka magecraft that acts upon an area - and generally work under some variation of ''inner/outer'' dichotomy, that is, it sets a boundary that defines a specific area as region A and whatever is outside of it as region B, and applies some type of effect based on those boundaries or the crossing of said boundaries. The thing that made Tohko worried was that Kuji Kanesada was so ''mystery dense'' that the act of cutting the space as it moves would disrupts the boundary of her bounded field, and therefore could break it.

In Tsukihime, even ''fantasy realms'' that could be called fairy lands (as in having fairy tale like rules/laws) existed physically and could be acessed by normal people. This is different in Fate-type worlds though. The difference between Human Order winning or ''being denied''.

Now, Reality Marbles... are weird. It's hard to call them anything but diferent spatial dimensions, but that doesn't fit at all the World Egg Theory that is the base for them. And there are plenty of Reality Marbles that are implemented in reality itself - Ramesseum Tentyris, for example - or the even more awkward ''inside the boundaries of your own body Reality Marbles'' such as Kiritsugu Time Control or Nero's Lair of the Beast King.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Bumping!

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that what Yuri accepted can probably be applied then, in lack of better options, as long as there are no serious complaints.

So about this...

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I can apply this, soon as I get into my PC.

 

[Loyd]

Can someone summarise what was accepted?
Im pretty sure thr still alot of contention after yuri post.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Everything outside of Divinity, Mystery and soul=info was accepted.

 

[Regidian]

Can someone summarise what was accepted?
Im pretty sure thr still alot of contention after yuri post.

My post was just add thing that paul don't have add in the blog because occupied

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Alright so, this is gonna need a lot of pages unlocked, thanks to that general Magic resistance list (At least for Servants I just need the Physiology page). I'll try to ask for that tomorrow, since it would take the entire day to do it now.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

After this, are we gonna focused on the Lostbelt shennanigans?

 

[DaReaperMan]

After this, are we gonna focused on the Lostbelt shennanigans?

I hope so. The Lostbelts are very interesting.

 

[Antvasima]

Alright so, this is gonna need a lot of pages unlocked, thanks to that general Magic resistance list (At least for Servants I just need the Physiology page). I'll try to ask for that tomorrow, since it would take the entire day to do it now.

If you write a list of the EXACTLY WORDED pages titles for all of them, I can use my automated script to unlock them for you.

 

[Rez]

More proof for servants soul=info

From fate complete material III: World material - Records of Heavens Feel - Servant System: Difference between Heroic Spirits and Servants, p.012

Heroic Spirits are beings cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their emanations, the Servants. Speaking of which, the information (souls) making up the Servants return to the main body at the same time as the death of the Servant, and the main body can know, as records, about the actions of the Servants as if reading a book.

 

[PrinceofPein]

All characters with Resistance to Soul Manipulation also require Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation and Information Manipulation due to the Soul containing Concepts and Information. The former is shown with the Conceptual Weapons statement below, and the latter is because Souls are directly translatable into information and can be run through high-end computers, as is shown during the Moon Cell Saga. This is further explained with the statements at the bottom of this CRT.


Conceptual Weapons should have Soul Manipulation, Information Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation on every hit due to being able to kill souls and striking opponents with souls.


"Q: Conceptual Weapons are fixed magical items which execute a predetermined phenomenon. They're soul smashers ("outbreakers") that beat the opponent not physically but with the weight of the soul, but would it be possible to kill only the soul of a normal person, rather than something supernatural?


A: Yes, but the effect would be reduced. Or rather, against a mundane opponent, mere physical attacks would suffice. Physical interference is not possible against formless things, such as manifestations of laws or delusions. That's why Conceptual Weapons exist, because beings that exist via concepts can only be killed by concepts."


Source: Complete Material

Just to be clear this is not type 1 conceptual manip and the type should be added to the justification

 

[Regidian]

Just to be clear this is not type 1 conceptual manip and the type should be added to the justification

The conceptual resistance i was talking doesn't come from here you know?

 

[PrinceofPein]

The conceptual resistance i was talking doesn't come from here you know?

Okay from where then? I can't seem to find it

 

[Regidian]

Okay from where then? I can't seem to find it

I show in the other thread

 

[Miyako_Rev]

Agree With Everything

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

If you write a list of the EXACTLY WORDED pages titles for all of them, I can use my automated script to unlock them for you.

Servant Physiology

ORT

Type Venus

Crimson Moon

Type Jupiter

Type Saturn

Arcueid Brunestud

Angelica Ainsworth

Berserker (Arcueid Brunestud)

Goetia

Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg

Ryougi Shiki

Gilgamesh (Fate Series)

Illyasviel Von Einsbern (Fate/Kaleid)

Julian Ainsworth

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Turns out Servant Physiology wasn't locked, so I went ahead and added the stuff to it. I'll start doing it to pages that are unlocked, too.

 

[Regidian]

Turns out Servant Physiology wasn't locked, so I went ahead and added the stuff to it. I'll start doing it to pages that are unlocked, too.

You have forgot these ones.



Size Manipulation, Sealing (Can perform divine punishment, such as turning people into pigs or trapping them into tiny worlds)


Density Manipulation (Manipulated the density of air to trap Saber in a membrane of it) (she cancelled it just after)

Fate Manipulation (Can cast a Time Lock, which makes events impossible to change past a certain point) (Saber resisted it was in Archer side story)

Telekinesis (Lifted some bodies into the air)


Hypnotism (Via wards and spells)

Gravity manipulation (via Jewel, UBW ep 3)

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Thank you. Tell me here when you are done.

Gilgamesh (Fate Series), Illyasviel von Einzbern (Fate/Kaleid) and Julian Ainsworth aren't unlocked, by the way.

 

[Antvasima]

Did you word the page titles EXACTLY as they are written?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will try again.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I have finished editing.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I will lock the pages.

Should I close this thread?