Naruto/Boruto General Ninja discussion thread #35

[BlackeJan]

@TFO

Um....u do know that SOSP > KCM + SM right?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

No Toad Sage Mode pigmentation around Naruto's eyes when he gathered the chakra to his hand, but sure. Like I said, I disagree and I don't want things to drag out. Others will decide when the time comes.

Has 5-B Base Naruto been accepted yet?

Of course there isn't any SM Pigmentation around the eyes because all of that chakra was sent to his fist, and ok, but you can't just make a claim like that though and not expect nothing to happen.

Not yet, IMade continues to use the same arguments I debunked while misleading people on my post regarding SPSM. Kep, accepts the Anime being supporting Canon yet still agree's with IMade, which is a contradiction but idek...Now I gotta respond again when I get a laptop or desktop infront of me.

It seems I gotta break the arguments down into sections:

• SPSM vs Base
• Sasuke's Scaling
• Naruto's Scaling
• Momoshiki's Scaling

Basically 4 threads in one....>_> -sigh-

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@TFO

Um....u do know that SOSP > KCM + SM right?

That's not true, people mistakenly accept it as such. Let me break it down for you:

• Base Naruto scales to Base Sasuke.
• Base Sasuke's Jutsu work on Juubi Jins and SPSM Naruto (PS or Not)
• Sasuke's jutsu are only capable of doing such because he has SPC which puts him on their level.
• Hagoromo gave Sasuke and Naruto each half of his chakra.
• In the DB, SPSM says nothing about having SPC or that SPSM is necessary to use SPC. It's a separate power (Using the one panel that Kep tries to use is misleading considering Upon Revival, Naruto was in SPSM until Kaguya was sealed. The DB doesn't cover anything beyond that and that statement is still true if Naruto has SPC and simply uses the form. It is also debunked in Manga with Sasuke being able to use SPC without having SPSM either)
• SPSM is only stated to give Naruto flight, better understandings and better reaction speed.
• Thus, Naruto has Access to SPC in Base AND SPSM.

So, how does it make sense that SPSM is > Base Naruto in a significant way when the power sets are:

• SPSM = 50% Hagoromo Chakra + Kyuubi Chakra
• Base = 50% Hagoromo Chakra

????? It doesn't. Tier 6 energy is insignificant to 5-B energy.

Now, when we Discuss Nature Energy being added, what happened in the Manga? Naruto created Ashura Avatar, what is Ashura Avatar's Power Set?

• Ashura Avatar = 50% Hagoromo Chakra + Biju 1-9 Chakra + Nature Energy.

Note: Biju 1-9 Chskra combined results in SPC. Naruto had Unquantifiable fractions of Biju 1-8 chakra + 50% Kurama which results in an Unquantifiable ammount of SPC being created or a unquantifiable Fraction of Juubito or Six Paths Madara's Chakra. So, let's look at this. Leaving Chakra modes out of it, SM adult Naruto is above SPSM.

• SM Base Adult Naruto = 50% Hagoromo Chakra + Nature Energy

And we all remember Nature Energy allowed SPSM to match Biju Susanoo

Now look here, as of Boruto, Naruto's SPSM is only:

• 50% Hagoromo Chakra + 100% BM (He doesn't even use Biju 1-8 chakra anymore).

And Base Sasuke with just 50% Hagoromo Chakra can keep up....

 

[BlackeJan]

KCMSM= Kuramas chakra + SM

SOSP = All Bijus chakra + SM + Hagoromo chakra

 

[AlexSoloVaAlFuturo]

Alex, you're drunk. Lol.

I wish that what is happening to me is something easy like get drunk.

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

KCMSM= Kuramas chakra + SM

SOSP = All Bijus chakra + SM + Hagoromo chakra

Sage of the six paths mode is not even a thing BTW. It's called six paths sage mode. Period. And it only requires sage mode but used with some six paths chakra mixed into it, no matter where u got it from. Naruto got it from both hagoromo and obito when obito have him the chakra of the bijuu, which had his own six paths mixed into it as well

 

[BlackeJan]

@Lorenzo

That's basically what I've said just that he also has Hogaromo chakra in it as well

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Black Base Naruto's Chakra is SPC now.

 

[BlackeJan]

@Black Base Naruto's Chakra is SPC now.

Yes I know that I'm just talking about what SOSP is basically

 

[AstralKing7]

I'm kinda understanding what TFO is tryna say. SPSM technically isn't a form but a state of mind. It shouldn't be regarded as a form that gives a power boost because that would be a lie based on what the DB actually considers SPSM; It's a state of mind. We have to consider all of the things which made Naruto as strong as he was when using the chakra cloak and SPSM.

Naruto has- Six path chakra All of the Tailed beasts chakra Hagoromos chakra as well Body of Hagoromo and Asura

All of that is basically 5B when you put them together even without SPSM. I think if we didn't have the name SPSM we would just still be referring to it as one of Kuramas chakra cloaks. We have to look at it from a perspective that doesn't believe SPSM gives it a power boost because it technically doesn't.

We also need to remember that Naruto in the Last basically uses SPC in BSM without SPSM which basically proves it's a state of mind. This would logically make sense with 5B Toneri cause Toneri actually has a 5B calc but we didn't use it cause we thought it was too high.

But if the calc was higher than Momoshiki current rating then I won't agree with it cause I can't accept Toneri being stronger than Momoshiki.

This is just me trying to interpret what TFO is trying to say

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

No, nothing at all suggests he focused the senjutsu chakra to his fist. Novel mentions nothing about that as well. And seriously, you very well know what Kodachi and the other staff wanted to show us. That if it somehow wasn't clear already, Momoshiki >>>>> Toneri.

@Astral

Really, the problem is not Toneri being 5-B for me. The problem is Toneri being the strongest villain in the verse and BSM Naruto being the strongest thing in the verse. Such a thing goes against context, canon portrayal and happenings, obvious authorial intent and other similar things. It's what I'd, no offense, describe as headcanon.

The next time the biggest baddie shows up, if they're going to hype him up compared to the previous villains, they're going to mention Kaguya and / or Momoshiki. Nobody's going to remember Toneri. Why? Well, it's simple. He's canonically weaker than both. No amount of "facts" will change that. It's just a fanon observation / interpretation and canon very clearly disagrees with what's being proposed. As such, it can't fly for me.

And now, if the characters don't mention Toneri and say the new baddie is a bigger threat than him, we're to keep on saying Toneri is the strongest in the verse when canon obviously portrays things otherwise, right until the end of Boruto? Because everyone realizes that nobody's going to mention Toneri in relation to any new villains, right? Any mention will go to Kaguya or Momoshiki.

Big nope. I'd agree if it wasn't contradicted in canon, but Toneri clearly is not stronger than Kaguya and Momoshiki. TFO thinks he's stronger, so he's proposing an upgrade to 2 yottatons for him. 5-A Naruto won't go through, anyway.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

By the way, Madara should have limited teleportation for swapping places with his shadows. I saw characters that have it for something similar.

 

[Omimi]

I'm kinda understanding what TFO is tryna say. SPSM technically isn't a form but a state of mind.

or SPSM= Hax


Invulnerability to ninjutsu

Reality Warping/yin-yang

Matter Manipulation

Power Nullification

Elemental Manipulation

Flight

innate ability to grasp the nature of chakra

resurrection

universal comprehension of all things ƒñô praise the hype Lol

 

[AstralKing7]

I also don't consider Toneri to be the strongest villain. We should get rid of the misconception that SPSM gives a power boost when it doesn't. Yeah Naruto is stronger in the Momoshiki arc but we can just consider that as a regular shonen trope but he was training. We can still scale him in SPSM above his teen self.

I don't know about all of that 5A stuff if it's not consistent. If it's sronger than Momoshiki and Kaguyas calcs I dot agree.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

5-B thread hasn't been accepted yet, and seems to be going nowhere. Let's focus on the scaling for the Pain arc and beyond. We could have made a lot of progress by now.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

5-B thread hasn't been accepted yet, and seems to be going nowhere. Let's focus on the scaling for the Pain arc and beyond. We could have made a lot of progress by now.

 

[BlackeJan]

In all honesty we need to concluded it now since we been in that thread for like a good week

I don't understand why y'all think SOSP isn't a power boost transformation when he clearly needed that to beat his opponents. Ultra Instince is a "state of mind" yet it's used as the strongest transformation....Toneri is not the strongest cause of ya really wanna think about it, why didn't Naruto just used KCMSM vs Kaguya or Momo?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@BFF

Naruto condenses his form into his fist. Said form is KCM+SM. You claim nothing suggests Naruto put nature energy in his fist, but that's blatantly false as we see he puts all his chakra in it, said chakra is fused with Nature Energy.

Then you're claiming portrayal and context don't agree with my analysis, yet you completely ignore the facts to justify this opinin of yours.

Yes, Tenseigan Toneri > Fused Momoshiki. You want to disprove this, disprove absorbing Nature Energy doesn't amp him. To be frank, it doesn't matter if you don't agree with it if you are going to ignore the facts.

Facts:

• Boruto Era Naruto Fought Momoshiki with Kurama's Chakra and his own which is SPC. Sasuke only has SPC, no Tailed Beast Chakra.
• The Last Era Naruto fought Toneri with his own chakra, plus Kurama's chakra, amplified by Nature Energy as evident of him being in SM.

Your opinion is moot as the facts has The Last Naruto as indisputably stronger than Boruto Era Naruto. The chakra punch is nothing but an application of chakra control. Something Sakura has been doing since part 2 began, only difference is she doesn't have the strong chakra or stats that Naruto does.

So yes, Momoshiki blocked a Chakra punch from Naruto, that is irrelevant when the facts have The Last Naruto's Chakra as stronger than Boruto Era Naruto's.Portrayal and Context don't agree with you....

Ashura Avatar Naruto & Biju Susanoo Sasuke > KCSM Naruto & Tenseigan Toneri > SPSM Naruto & Rinnegan Sasuke.

Why? Becsuse Nature Energy boosting them.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

In all honesty we need to concluded it now since we been in that thread for like a good week

I don't understand why y'all think SOSP isn't a power boost transformation when he clearly needed that to beat his opponents. Ultra Instince is a "state of mind" yet it's used as the strongest transformation....Toneri is not the strongest cause of ya really wanna think about it, why didn't Naruto just used KCMSM vs Kaguya or Momo?

Just like one could ask "Why didn't Sasuke use Susanoo against Kinshiki or Naruto use Ashura Avatar against Momoshiki?"...PIS.

 

[BlackeJan]

@TFO

Naruto and Sasuke Fused their respective avatar (Kurama and Susanno) vs Fused Momo and has it ever crossed yur mind that they wouldn't need to use it since both were lol beating Fused Momo with half their chakra?

Also KCMSM < SOSP....I mean SOSP is literally Hogaromos chakra + Advanced SM (say this cause it came from Hogaromo himself) + ALL of the bikinis chakra. KCMSM is literally Advanced SM + Kuramas chakra, nothing else. I think the reason why I think it's more powerful cause of Base Narutos standing then during the war. The Last is 2 years into the future so Naruto had that time to train and everything. The one that Base Naruto chakra punch vs Momo is just his chakra

 

[TheFinalOrder]

You know what, idgaf anymore. I'm sick and tired and these factless, arbitrary arguments. As far as this verses standing on this site when it comes to calcs, feats, scaling, whatever, it can go to hell. I'm tired of talking to walls here, so do whatever, label them as whatever.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

And no, don't quote me or @ me saying "I'm taking it too far" or "There's no need no act like that". I don't want to hear it. Leave me out of it.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

lol, if you don't like being here then why continue to stay?

 

[TheFinalOrder]

lol, if you don't like being here then why continue to stay?

Read and comprehend my post before you start some shit.

 

[Omimi]

At least RSM stronger then BM (rsm boost>bm boost)state in DB

And kcm+sm > rsm /SM> Base RSM(assuming that rsm also need NE to activate ?)so it hard for anyone to accepts it also saying kcm+sm stronger than rsm same as saying that naruto was holding back against kaguya

In my opinion

Asura avatar>RSM with Boil Release: Unrivalled Strength >FULL power RSM>BASE RSM+kurama>BASE RSM>BSM>KCM+SM>SM>Base

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Omimi The issue is, Base Naruto is comparable to Sasuke who is comparable to SPSM which backs my anslysis of SPSM not being significantly above Base Naruto.

This again is backed up by breaking down the power sets:

• Base Naruto = 50% Hagoromo Chakra
• Base SPSM = 50% Hagoromo Chakra (Naruto was just using Inbividual Biju Chakra)
• SPSM Chakra Mode = 50% Hagoromo Chakra + Biju 1-8 Chakra + Kurama's Chakra.

And I have stated out, multiple times:

• Kurama's Chakra is only Tier 6
• Naruto only has a Unquantifiable fractio of Biju 1-8 chakra and combining them with Kurama's chakra = an Unquantifiable amount of SPC being created. Naruto would have a fraction of Juubito or Six Patha Madara's chakra. Perhaps no more than even what Obito/Kakashi had.

So, SPSM Chakra Mode is insignificantly stronger than Base Naruto with the addition of Tier 6 Kurama's Chakra. And with the biju's chakra fused, he is only stronger than Base Naruto by an Unquantifiable fractio.

And As shown when Nature Energy is added, Naruto gets a massive boost (Ashura Avatar vs Biju Susanoo as Exhibit A).

So yes let's compare all relevant versions:

• War Arc SPSM Chakra Mode: 50% Hagoromo Chakra + Unquantifiable fractio of SPC (Due to Fusing the Biju Chakra)
• War Arc Ashura Avatar: 50% Hagoromo Chakra + Unquantifiable Fractio of SPC + Nature Energy

____________

• The Last KCSM: 50% Hagoromo Chakra + Kurama Chakra (KCM) + Nature Energy (SPSM was not used)

____________

• Boruto Era SPSM Chakra Mode: 50% Hagoromo Chakra + Kurama's Chakra (BM)

KCSM is not the strongest version of Naruto, Ashura Avatar is, but with SM, due to the buff he gets from Nature Energy, Naruto's strongest forms should be as follows:

Ashura Avatar (By an Unquantifiable Fractio) > KCSM (By an Insignificant amount) > Adult SM (Due to Massive Buffs from Nature Energy) > SPSM Chakra Mode (By an Unquantifiable Fractio) > Base SPSM (When using insignificant individual Biju Chakra) > Base Naruto.

^THIS IS ALL BASED ON LOGIC AND FACTS, WHICH NOBODY WANTS TO ACCEPT because they can't fathom their arbitrary beliefs about the characters are mistaken. So, i'm done now that logic and facts are being tossed to the wind.

 

[BlackeJan]

Hey so i have been wondering but wouldnt a 3 Tail Naruto be stronger then Matatabi since shes a 2 Tail?

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

.....dude... are u for real?

 

[BlackeJan]

Now now just think about it (Really its just an idea) but the more tails you have the stronger youve become so this crossed my mind

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

no.... the tails dont really mean anything when transforming into the bijuu, besides for the fact that more tails= more of the bijuu is coming out, hence more power is leaking. 3 tailed naruto is so fodder compared to matatabi that getting one shotted isnt even an option here lol

 

[Rocker1189]

Hey so i have been wondering but wouldnt a 3 Tail Naruto be stronger then Matatabi since shes a 2 Tail?

err, no, if this was to apply it is only in full forms.

 

[Omimi]

we dont need toneri to scale from anyone

if naruto earth 2x to 10x bigger or much bigger

hell even 2x bigger earth could probably put him on 5-B

so when we are going to get NV earth size accepted

 

[BlackeJan]

no.... the tails dont really mean anything when transforming into the bijuu, besides for the fact that more tails= more of the bijuu is coming out, hence more power is leaking. 3 tailed naruto is so fodder compared to matatabi that getting one shotted isnt even an option here lol

Yes yes I know it's just it always bugged me since I was younger. More tails though means more power hence why I sat their and was like "if that's the case then wouldn't a 3 Tail Naruto be stronger then Matatabu since she's 2 Tail"

 

[AstralKing7]

Ooh yeah guys I may have a possibly ability revision I'm working on.

Did you guys know that chakra comes from out of all the cells in the body??? I feel like this is important and could lead to abilities that we may have looked over

 

[BlackeJan]

I've know. About that for a while. Their chakra nature basically stems from them hence why Sasuke was able to use Kirin with his Lightning nature

 

[AstralKing7]

Naw that doesn't have anything with Sasuke using Kirin. That wasn't explained at all bro. Sasuke just controls the lightning in the clouds by making his lightning as a conductor. That doesn't have anything to do with the chakra from the cells

 

[BlackeJan]

It's from their cells meaning that it basically stems from them....their chakra nature is a part of them. That's what I've meant about the Kirin, Sasuke used his Lightning element to make the attack

 

[AstralKing7]

I mean it's basically chakra control tho. The lightning was already created in the sky. Sasuke just used his lightning and chakra control to control the shape and form of the lightning in the sky creating Kirin. If Sasuke could use real lightning I wouldn't see the reason why he needed to the clouds to make Kirin

 

[BlackeJan]

Maybe cause he can't do that? I mean if he can use his Lightning element to control the Lightning in the sky then wouldn't that just mean he has real lightning element as well?

EDIT: actually if I'm right he shot his Dragon Flame Jutsu into the sky and made the thunderclouds

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

chakra dont come from the cells, technically. they are resident in there, but they come from a mixture of one's mind, body, and spirit put together as one.