Naruto Hax Upgrading

[Apollonir.Scale]

Gaara
Gaara's sand becomes stronger after every battle. Gaara's father Rasa states that he is getting stronger. Likewise, Madara also stated this. If the sand does not become stronger than before after each battle, all of the opponents Gaara fights will be at the same power level. I don't think anyone will see Gate 5 Lee, CE Sasuke, Kimimaro, Deidara, MS Sasuke, Edo Madara, Momoshiki and Urasahiki at the same level of ap and speed. (Accelerated Development)

Gentle Fist
Otsutsuki's and Hyuga clan members who are descendants of Hamura have Gentle Fist. Momoshiki also has this. When Momoshiki hit Naruto with Gentle Fist, Naruto was unaffected. This should give it resistance to Acupuncture and Dura Neg. At the same time, Gentle Fist, Dura Neg and Acupuncture are not even listed on Momoshiki's profile. It's just that Boruto's profile is not marked with a dura neg.

• Naruto (Resistance to Dura neg & Acupuncture)
• Boruto (Dura Neg)
• Momoshiki (Dura neg & Acupuncture

 

[Excellence616]

Fr? This isn't fun and games oh

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Fr?

I don't know the meaning of the abbreviation Fr.

 

[SuperStar]

Fr? This isn't fun and games oh?

For Real Real.

 

[PatatesR]

Gaara
Gaara's sand becomes stronger after every battle. Gaara's father Rasa states that he is getting stronger. Likewise, Madara also stated this. If the sand does not become stronger than before after each battle, all of the opponents Gaara fights will be at the same power level. I don't think anyone will see Gate 5 Lee, CE Sasuke, Kimimaro, Deidara, MS Sasuke, Edo Madara, Momoshiki and Urasahiki at the same level of ap and speed. (Accelerated Development)

Gentle Fist
Otsutsuki's and Hyuga clan members who are descendants of Hamura have Gentle Fist. Momoshiki also has this. When Momoshiki hit Naruto with Gentle Fist, Naruto was unaffected. This should give it resistance to Acupuncture and Dura Neg. At the same time, Gentle Fist, Dura Neg and Acupuncture are not even listed on Momoshiki's profile. It's just that Boruto's profile is not marked with a dura neg.

• Naruto (Resistance to Dura neg & Acupuncture)
• Boruto (Dura Neg)
• Momoshiki (Dura neg & Acupuncture)

4-C Naruto & Isshiki
Kaguya's attack has 4-C Ap. Kurama says about Isshiki, "He is a completely different monster than the ones we have fought so far." According to Kurama, Isshiki is the strongest opponent that Naruto and Kurama have ever fought. It is also stated in the episode description that Isshiki is the strongest enemy. ''These two statements only apply to Isshiki Ap>Kaguya Ap. You may say "ETSB, which is 4-C, does not cover Kaguya". However, ETSB Kaguya is also technically an enemy, and Kurama has seen her strength as well.

4-C Momoshiki, Kinshiki, Gokage
Sasuke has knowledge of how powerful a character can be with his Sharingan. Although ETSB has seen Kaguya, they think Momoshiki and Kinshiki may be stronger than Kaguya. Then he says my hypothesis was correct. There will definitely be people who will not accept this. So let me give the following examples: When Sasuke, who has Sharingan and Rinnegan, sees Kaguya, he realizes that Kaguya's chakra is better than Madara's chakra. As soon as Pain, a Rinnegan user, saw Sage Mode Jiraiya, he implied that he had powers similar to Orochimaru. Tobi states that Sage Mode Jiraiya is a power worthy of the Sannin level. He had already seen Orochimaru before. While Madara fights with Sharingan against other shinobi, KCM switches to Rinnegan to react to Naruto. These come to my mind for now. There are many characters in the series who can feel their opponent's power by looking at them.

Not only with eye power, sensor type ninjas can sense how strong their opponent is. Naruto realized by feeling that Edo Nagato was stronger than the Pain he fought.

I totally agree with gentle fist and gaara.

We definitely need to take 4c isshiki vs naruto seriously.

Fr? This isn't fun and games oh

I didn't see anything funny. If you have a problem, you should present an argument.

 

[Damage3245]

Oh, it's time for this type of thread again.

You're not the first person to suggest scaling all those characters to Kaguya's ESTO, by the way.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

You're not the first person to suggest scaling all those characters to Kaguya's ESTO, by the way.

I know this, but some of the arguments I made were not used in the debates I saw before. For example, even though Sasuke knows ETSB Kaguya's power level, he sees Momoshiki and Kinshiki as stronger.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Honestly, the justification for Kaguya’s root dimension having a star is pretty non existent, but that’s another issue. To tackle what’s being presented:

1) ETSO isn’t something Kaguya could produce herself, she requires the IT.
2) it only reaches 4-C over time.

What this means is that you can be far superior and a greater threat than Kaguya without being superior to her overtime value for ETSO. The 4-C value isn’t even combat applicable anyway, because theres no quantifiable short time frame, and the only non arbitrary time frame is like a decade. So you can be stronger than Kaguya without being stronger than her strongest attack which you cannot pull off by herself or in a reasonable time at all. Also, “ETSB Kaguya” isn’t a thing at all. The ETSB is a giant TSO that Kaguya produced after absorbing IT chakra. The whole “ETSB Kaguya is an enemy too” is just a non point.

 

[Damage3245]

What this means is that you can be far superior and a greater threat than Kaguya without being superior to her overtime value for ETSO. The 4-C value isn’t even combat applicable anyway, because theres no quantifiable short time frame, and the only non arbitrary time frame is like a decade. So you can be stronger than Kaguya without being stronger than her strongest attack which you cannot pull off by herself or in a reasonable time at all. Also, “ETSB Kaguya” isn’t a thing at all. The ETSB is a giant TSO that Kaguya produced after absorbing IT chakra. The whole “ETSB Kaguya is an enemy too” is just a non point.

I'm starting to think we should add this explanation in as a discussion rule since it is lost on some people.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think Godernet is going to propose a discussion rule about scaling people to the ETSO soon anyway, so I’ll leave that to him.

 

[PatatesR]

Honestly, the justification for Kaguya’s root dimension having a star is pretty non existent, but that’s another issue. To tackle what’s being presented:

1) ETSO isn’t something Kaguya could produce herself, she requires the IT.
2) it only reaches 4-C over time.

What this means is that you can be far superior and a greater threat than Kaguya without being superior to her overtime value for ETSO. The 4-C value isn’t even combat applicable anyway, because theres no quantifiable short time frame, and the only non arbitrary time frame is like a decade. So you can be stronger than Kaguya without being stronger than her strongest attack which you cannot pull off by herself or in a reasonable time at all. Also, “ETSB Kaguya” isn’t a thing at all. The ETSB is a giant TSO that Kaguya produced after absorbing IT chakra. The whole “ETSB Kaguya is an enemy too” is just a non point.

Kaguya, who uses ETSB, is an enemy encountered by Naruto and Sasuke, and those like Ishiki are described as the strongest enemies. We know that ETSB was made using the chakra absorbed from humans. I never understood why he remembered this. To make this issue more explanatory, we need to portray the battle that Ishiki, who is stronger than Kaguya, will fight against Kaguya. As you said, ETSB will be 4c after a certain time. Ishiki's battle with Kaguya will not be a short-term battle anyway. It will probably last for hours because Kaguya has a truly powerful regeneration ability. This war duration is enough for ETSB to reach 4c size. Ishiki must definitely tank this attack with Kaguya's bfr. Therefore, I think we should give 4c dura to isshiki.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Kaguya, who uses ETSB, is an enemy encountered by Naruto and Sasuke, and those like Ishiki are described as the strongest enemies. We know that ETSB was made using the chakra absorbed from humans, thanks to the dog. I never understood why he remembered this. To make this issue more explanatory, we need to portray the battle that Ishiki, who is stronger than Kaguya, will fight against Kaguya. As you said, ETSB will be 4c after a certain time. Ishiki's battle with Kaguya will not be a short-term battle anyway. It will probably last for hours because Kaguya has a truly powerful regeneration ability. This war duration is enough for ETSB to reach 4c size. Ishiki must definitely tank this attack with Kaguya's bfr. Therefore, I think we should give 4c dura to isshiki.

As is right now Isshiki’s physicals are a blitz one shot about Kaguya, there is no hour long battle to be had. Also, she gets the 4-C value after OVER a DECADE. A few hours means literally nothing here. “It’ll reach full size in the battle” is just a baseless claim. Also, unless she has the IT active and Earth ensnared she can’t even use the technique. Isshiki can be stronger than Kaguya without being stronger than a hypothetical ETSO at maximum size.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

The argument of Kaguya with IT chakra doesn't scale is very flawed as it assumed Kaguya was the only otsutsuki to ever use IT or consume a planet's energy which we know very well it's not true. If something Kaguya not having any shinjutsu supports other Otsutsuki who have as having eaten multiple powerful planets, since Otsutsuki evolve by eating planets.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

there is no point in making a discussion rule

new people are going to still make upgrades like these without knowing about the rule

If there’s a discussion rule then when these new goons make threads like this, staff can close it automatically without having to engage in any debate. So it makes it easier to deal with.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

If this isn't closed by the time I can get to it, I'll make a response.

But just to be clear right off the bat, I disagree FRA.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The argument of Kaguya with IT chakra doesn't scale is very flawed as it assumed Kaguya was the only otsutsuki to ever use IT or consume a planet's energy which we know very well it's not true. If something Kaguya not having any shinjutsu supports other Otsutsuki who have as having eaten multiple powerful planets, since Otsutsuki evolve by eating planets.

None of this makes Kaguya 4-C. Also please read her profile notes section, we don’t entertain attempts to scale Kaguya to her ETSO.

 

[PatatesR]

As is right now Isshiki’s physicals are a blitz one shot about Kaguya, there is no hour long battle to be had. Also, she gets the 4-C value after OVER a DECADE. A few hours means literally nothing here. “It’ll reach full size in the battle” is just a baseless claim. Also, unless she has the IT active and Earth ensnared she can’t even use the technique. Isshiki can be stronger than Kaguya without being stronger than a hypothetical ETSO at maximum size.

Thanks to Kaguya's regeneration and chakra rebirth ability, this battle is definitely not a one-shot fight. Saying that ETSB will destroy the dimension within 10 years is complete nonsense. Although the war between Team 7 and Kaguya did not last long, they fought in panic that ETSB would explode. Naruto and Sasuke fought Kaguya, who trapped the world and used ETSB, so the enemy that Naruto and Sasuke faced is Kaguya, who uses ETSB. Ishiki, which is called the strongest enemy, will of course be scaled on Kaguya who uses ETSB.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Thanks to Kaguya's regeneration and chakra rebirth ability, this battle is definitely not a one-shot fight. Saying that ETSB will destroy the dimension within 10 years is complete nonsense. Although the war between Team 7 and Kaguya did not last long, they fought in panic that ETSB would explode. Naruto and Sasuke fought Kaguya, who trapped the world and used ETSB, so the enemy that Naruto and Sasuke faced is Kaguya, who uses ETSB. Ishiki, which is called the strongest enemy, will of course be scaled on Kaguya who uses ETSB.

Ok Isshiki blitzes her and throws her in his timeless dimension where she can’t do anything. Positing these hypotheticals means nothing here, it doesn’t address the debunks at all. Isshiki is already stronger than Kaguya without having to be stronger than the etso so yes he’s the strongest enemy and there’s no contradiction.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Agree with the gaara and gentle fist stuff. Disagree with th etsb scaling for obvious reasons. Most notably the etsb value coming from its DC and Hax. Even if we assumed ishikki had more chakra than IT Kaguya, he has no showings nor ninjutsu or shinjutsu to replicate the same value that produces tier 4.

 

[LordTracer]

Hard disagree with 4-C FRA.

AD is fine, but you need to uncrop the scans and provide the chapters they came from. Gentle Fist stuff is also fine, but having an unedited scan for it would be preferable.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The argument of Kaguya with IT chakra doesn't scale is very flawed as it assumed Kaguya was the only otsutsuki to ever use IT or consume a planet's energy which we know very well it's not true. If something Kaguya not having any shinjutsu supports other Otsutsuki who have as having eaten multiple powerful planets, since Otsutsuki evolve by eating planets.

thats irrelevant unless we have actual comparisons of populations between planets.

thats also ignoring that earth is specifically regarded as an anomaly.

 

[Damage3245]

I need to see more evidence for Accelerated Development for Garra as opposed to this just being development. Rasa stating Gaara's sand has gotten stronger can just mean that Gaara is trying harder than before if there's no other context.

 

[PatatesR]

Ok Isshiki blitzes her and throws her in his timeless dimension where she can’t do anything. Positing these hypotheticals means nothing here, it doesn’t address the debunks at all. Isshiki is already stronger than Kaguya without having to be stronger than the etso so yes he’s the strongest enemy and there’s no contradiction.

Isshiki's BFR in the form of Jigen was one of karma's abilities. If he could use it, the UN would send Naruto to his own dimension... Please don't use nonsense to oppose this bro

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I need to see more evidence for Accelerated Development for Garra as opposed to this just being development. Rasa stating Gaara's sand has gotten stronger can just mean that Gaara is trying harder than before if there's no other context.

the databook also confirms Gaara got stronger post Rasa but this might be more to do with adding gold dust to his arsenal than accelerated development

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Isshiki's BFR in the form of Jigen was one of karma's abilities. If he could use it, the UN would send Naruto to his own dimension... Please don't be ridiculous to oppose it bro

You realize Isshiki still had access to his timeless dimension right…? His Daikouten dojutsu works explicitly off that premise.

 

[PatatesR]

You realize Isshiki still had access to his timeless dimension right…? His Daikouten dojutsu works explicitly off that premise.

He has the timeless dimension but he can't teleport Kaguya there.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

He has the timeless dimension but he can't teleport Kaguya there.

Yes he can… read his profile dude.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

the databook also confirms Gaara got stronger post Rasa but this might be more to do with adding gold dust to his arsenal than accelerated development

Wasn't there a statement for Chūnin Exams Gaara in one of the databooks that he grows stronger with every fight and just by killing people?

 

[PatatesR]

Yes he can… read his profile dude.

Dude, I already told you that you can use this bfr in jigen form thanks to karma.

 

[Sasukesama0492]

This topic has been opened many times, shouldn't it be closed?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Dude, I already told you that you can use this bfr in jigen form thanks to karma.

I’m not talking about Karma goober.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I agree with gaara and other arguments, following the tier 4 topic

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Wasn't there a statement for Chūnin Exams Gaara in one of the databooks that he grows stronger with every fight and just by killing people?

not sure if it would be applicable to shippuden Gaara (also prob metaphorical )

 

[PatatesR]

I’m not talking about Karma goober.

Are you aware that you got the bfr in your profile with karma in the scene I posted above?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Are you aware that you got the bfr in your profile with karma in the scene I posted above?

I’m aware of karma based bfr yes. Not relevant to what I said.

 

[Testarossa002]

Yes he can… read his profile dude.

The profile states non living things

Otsutsuki's and Hyuga clan members who are descendants of Hamura have Gentle Fist. Momoshiki also has this. When Momoshiki hit Naruto with Gentle Fist, Naruto was unaffected. This should give it resistance to Acupuncture and Dura Neg. At the same time, Gentle Fist, Dura Neg and Acupuncture are not even listed on Momoshiki's profile. It's just that Boruto's profile is not marked with a dura neg.

• Naruto (Resistance to Dura neg & Acupuncture)
• Boruto (Dura Neg)
• Momoshiki (Dura neg & Acupuncture)

I don't think I'll call that being unaffected
It's not like Gentle Fist is a one hit KO technique (Himawari scene seems like PIS)
Add that to the fact that Naruto has regeneration and Kurama's chakra which seemed to negate all effects of him having his tenketsu targeted the last time it happened to him (Neji)
Plus, he was definitely in pain when he got hit by momoshiki

Disagree with the whole 4-C stuff too

 

[PatatesR]

I’m aware of karma based bfr yes. Not relevant to what I said.

I'm wondering how to use bfr without karma

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Are you wondering how to use bfr without karma?

No I’m not wondering anything.

 

[PatatesR]

No I’m not wondering anything.

I'm sorry for spelling it wrong bro.

 

[PatatesR]

No I’m not wondering anything.

If you accept that Isshiki cannot defeat Kaguya in one hit and cannot use BFR, we can continue to discuss Isshiki's interaction with ETSB and the growth of ETSB.