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Intro
the current understanding of the etso isn’t the best interpretation of the events shown in the series, this thread is to clear all that up.
Section one: problems with Current calc
Etso radius≈300 million km (it’s more since the etso was going to destroy the sun as well but for simplicities sake)
Volume= 4/3(pie)(r)^3
Volume= 1.13x10^26 km^3
Volume in m^3 =1.13x 10^35 m^3
Original calc multiplier
(1.13e+35)(1.3444672e+14)
Etso= 1.5192479e+49 or Solar System level
2. The calc uses 15 years as a timeframe which completely absurd. Naruto states that Kaguya needs to be sealed RIGHT NOW because of how fast it was growing. Kakashi says they can’t leave to another time space because they won’t be able to comeback because of how fast this is growing. The correct context is it’s going to envelop the dimension very fast, and needs to be delt with IMMEDIATELY
Anything higher longer than 10 minutes is ABSOLUTE DOWNPLAY. These are characters that are perceiving things at light speeds and state she needs to be gone NOW. 15 years???? Ridiculous
10 minutes= 600s
1.5192479e+49/600= 2.5320799e+46
Her Ap= 2.5320799e+46 or Solar system Level
Lowballed to the absolute
1 hour= 3600s
1.5192479e+49/3600= 4.2201332e+45
Her Ap= 4.2201332e+45 or Solar System Level
Anything longer and you’re just getting the context wrong.
Section two: WHY SHE SCALES TO IT(don’t hate me lol)
1. She literally drains the entire planet at the beginning and that’s how she emerges
If you’re thinking that Kaguya just absorbed way more chakra from them when she does the etso you’d be wrong.
This is because we know by Naruto that at the rate she’s absorbing chakra from the people in the IT, they will die if they don’t act NOW
In that same scan zesty says that they need to be preserved properly because she’s needs them to create the zetsu army
This is significant because we know that when people are drained of their chakra they start looking malnourished
However when everyone is released from the IT they’re completely fine with no signs of malnourishment and don’t even realize that they’ve been drained.
This means she couldn’t possibly have taken that much to the point where it amps her normal state by billions of times like the site suggests.
2. “Why does zetsu then say her powers have exponentially increased”
a. Exponents can have decimals thus leaving the statement vague, unquantifiable and doesn’t necessarily mean she got that much stronger. For example 2^1.1 is an exponential increase however the answer to that equation is just 2.14; a minimal increase.
b. The Kaguya that absorbed this was not just an unstable Kaguya but a fatigued and damaged Kaguya. Zetsu stated that her moving dimension was very taxing and that she needing to start preserving her chakra for emergencies as she was running low. He then states if she doesn’t go for the kill now they might seal her to which she then needed to use it twice again after that so she wouldn’t get hurt.
To illustrate how much weaker she had gotten, at the start of their fight she was able to casually knock Naruto back to the point where he can’t stop smiling and one shot sasuke’s susano,
https://imgur.com/a/qiE6JyH
Naruto needing to use boil release in tandem with the region combo in which this amp was stated to boast a power that equals lee’s command of the 8 gates in she databook, to overwhelm her.
https://imgur.com/a/qiE6JyH
Which should at least be a 24x amp according to this statement.
https://imgur.com/a/qiE6JyH
To her getting blitzed and having her arm ripped off and having a prolonged fight with sasuke’s susano with him even landing a hit and her needing multiple hits to destroy it.
https://imgur.com/a/Ar4umpD
Clearly showing she got weaker throughout the fight.
Further more we know that she lost her hand which is an even bigger nerf because chakra is drawn from cells, According to this: https://imgur.com/a/Ar4umpD
Her losing her arm means she’s losing a large amount of cells that she can’t draw power from anymore.
c) it’s stated the IT amps BOTH her might and speed. How can she get amped by billions of times yet she still got blitzed by kakashi?
https://imgur.com/a/mlja9RQ
The site even aggrees that kakashi might have just cut her with raw ap depending on your interpretations of kamui lightning blade.
How did billions of times stronger Kaguya get her horn broken by Sakura? Her byakugan is active and she can see Sakura
https://imgur.com/a/IvkxZuo
So sure Kaguya might have gotten exponentially stronger, nothing suggests she got much stronger than her normally at peak performance.
2. Why the Hell is she still scared of Momoshiki (as sasuke Confirms ) if she could just absorb chakra to become billions of times stronger than him to one shot that mf?
She already had them trapped in the IT, why was she still fiending for Naruto and sasuke’s chakra to the point where she was risking getting sealed.
Why does she need an army to oppose him?
We know the person she envisioned coming to beat her ass was him as seen in the anime canon flashback.
“Momoshiki can absorb her ninjutsu and throw it back stronger”
Yeah that’s irrelevant because he won’t be able to absorb her “potentially strongest offensive jutsu” which is her Vaccum fists.
We know momoshiki can’t absorb chakra limbs or living beings of chakra, seeing as he didn’t absorb Naruto’s Kurama avatar even though that’s the power he’s after.
This is consistent throughout the series. Delta could not absorb Naruto’s chakra arms, jigen could not absorb susano or Kurama avatar isshiki could not shrink Naruto’s chakra arms, etc.
Even if u want to say her etso isn’t an offensive ability (it is blatantly stated to be Both offensive and defensive ) , Kaguya is still the juubi jinjuriki and should capable of releasing bombs, using shinra tensei (can that even be absorbed?, etc, and yet her vacuum fists are stated to be above all that.
According to the calc above her ap would still be 4B even if u say she doesn’t scale to the fully grown etso.
It just doesn’t make sense for her to require an army if both of them don’t scale to it.
This same momoshiki she’s scared of has been going around absorbing planets and powering up for 1000 years straight while she was sealed let alone characters like code, isshiki, daemon, baryon mode that would massively out scale base Momo many times over.
3. There are multiple statements to imply that anything kaguya could accomplish has been surpassed.
1. The majestic attire susano
The statement says “producing a God of war with the strongest offense and defense”
In what sense would it only be talking about in the confines of Naruto and Sasuke? The statement is clearly made to be in comparison with others.
Talks about offensive and defensive ability in which the scan above says the Tso’s are offensive and defensive abilities.
But for some reason the site accepts this statement as it being in the confines of Naruto and Sasuke’s arsenal which nothing supports that.
If you want to put that limitations on it the burden of proof is on you to prove that negative.
The Kaguya fight was literally 2 arcs before that statement, which was a generalization. If it was in the confines of their abilities it would have said their strongest ninjutsu but no it generalizes and just says ninjutsu meaning anything before that statement goes.
The guide is talking about how Naruto and Sasuke are the strongest in general, why would we then start assuming it’s only talking about the confines of their abilities
2. The Vaccum fists scan from above says it’s potentially the strongest ninjutsu. Which at the time of the Kaguya fight, it blatantly is in a general sense and not in her arsenal. Nothing prior to its debut is as strong as that jutsu. Already gave further justifications for this statement above. Why should we then use different standards when talking about the mas?
3. Isshiki is stated to be their STRONGEST AND WORST ENEMY on the official Naruto site.
He is literally the ONLY enemy they have at the time so it has to be talking about all the enemies they’ve ever had. For some reason the site believes “yeah the statement goes for everything EXCEPT IT KAGUYA” like IT Kaguya wasn’t their enemy.
As stated before if the burden of proof is on you to prove this negative.
4. Further proof of characters scaling to this level is in this boruto manga guide, koji and jigen’s fight is stated to shake a dimension with a starry sky inside it.
proof that dimension has a starry sky:
youtu.be
There is no one else inside that dimension so it’s not metaphorical, their batttle was literally shaking the dimension.
Isshiki is then stated to have the power to manipulate dimensions in the official Naruto site.
This is not referring to space time ninjutsu because he has no ability like that, unlike Kaguya. He just opens a portal and teleports. Has nothing to do with manipulating dimensions as a whole the dimensions
This is referring to the fact that koji thought isshiki was going to “DESTROY THIS WHOLE SPACE” of that same dimension with a starry sky via shrinking.
This is just supporting evidence and can be gone in depth in another thread as it’s not really the point of this thread.
5. Some common counters
“But uzihiko is one of the strongest abilities. Firstly, uzihiko is stated in the most literal way endless to have power that does not stop rushing and boruto doesn’t use it immediately but takes time to charge it up. It can be as strong as whatever u need it to be wants to be depending on how long u charge it. After you’re hit with it, the energy doesn’t stop it keeps on flowing into u until its deactivated or u die. it is not an anti-feat.
“The power progression is too large” this is not an argument. Mfs in bleach go from moon level to galaxy level apparently, fhis is nothing. Just because it doesn’t “feel” right to u doesn’t mean anything.
Fodders like juubito and below don’t scale to this, so6p madara, sasuke and naruto barely do and only reach this level when sasuke absorbs the tailed beasts and nature energy of the planet at the end. Then later reach this level in their normal states after the timeskip.
“Naruto and sasuke only have 50% of hagoromo this doesn’t make sense”
This is a bad interpretation of the series. Hagoromo gave them 50% of his power each then they took that power and further awakened more abilities to grow even stronger. That 50% is closer to base Naruto than full power Naruto.
We know this because Kurama also got a six paths amp, Naruto then awakened six paths senjutsu to then further amplify both him and Kurama’s already amped states. As nature energy takes what you already have then further multiplies it.
If the 50% is all Naruto uses, he would be barely weaker when Kurama dies as Kurama would be fodder atp in the series.
Sasuke got his own 50% and awakened a tomoe rinnegan as well as perfect susano to stack on his already existing eternal mangekyo sharingan.
Conclusion: Kaguya and everyone above her should always scale to 4B frb.
Slightly weaker characters like so6p Naruto, sasuke and madara (debatably) would be High 4C (Kaguya went from one shotting sasuke’s susano to destroying it in 4 hits , implying 4 times weaker) if u are using the 1 hour calc but if you’re using the 10 minute one they would all be 4B
the current understanding of the etso isn’t the best interpretation of the events shown in the series, this thread is to clear all that up.
Section one: problems with Current calc
- The calc uses the distance between earth and the sun as the radius. This is wrong because the etso grows omnidirectionally from the planet it’s on outwards in all direction and not towards the sun. therefore the distance from the earth to the sun should be half of its radius.
Etso radius≈300 million km (it’s more since the etso was going to destroy the sun as well but for simplicities sake)
Volume= 4/3(pie)(r)^3
Volume= 1.13x10^26 km^3
Volume in m^3 =1.13x 10^35 m^3
Original calc multiplier
(1.13e+35)(1.3444672e+14)
Etso= 1.5192479e+49 or Solar System level
2. The calc uses 15 years as a timeframe which completely absurd. Naruto states that Kaguya needs to be sealed RIGHT NOW because of how fast it was growing. Kakashi says they can’t leave to another time space because they won’t be able to comeback because of how fast this is growing. The correct context is it’s going to envelop the dimension very fast, and needs to be delt with IMMEDIATELY
Anything higher longer than 10 minutes is ABSOLUTE DOWNPLAY. These are characters that are perceiving things at light speeds and state she needs to be gone NOW. 15 years???? Ridiculous
10 minutes= 600s
1.5192479e+49/600= 2.5320799e+46
Her Ap= 2.5320799e+46 or Solar system Level
Lowballed to the absolute
1 hour= 3600s
1.5192479e+49/3600= 4.2201332e+45
Her Ap= 4.2201332e+45 or Solar System Level
Anything longer and you’re just getting the context wrong.
Section two: WHY SHE SCALES TO IT(don’t hate me lol)
1. She literally drains the entire planet at the beginning and that’s how she emerges
If you’re thinking that Kaguya just absorbed way more chakra from them when she does the etso you’d be wrong.
This is because we know by Naruto that at the rate she’s absorbing chakra from the people in the IT, they will die if they don’t act NOW
In that same scan zesty says that they need to be preserved properly because she’s needs them to create the zetsu army
This is significant because we know that when people are drained of their chakra they start looking malnourished
However when everyone is released from the IT they’re completely fine with no signs of malnourishment and don’t even realize that they’ve been drained.
This means she couldn’t possibly have taken that much to the point where it amps her normal state by billions of times like the site suggests.
2. “Why does zetsu then say her powers have exponentially increased”
a. Exponents can have decimals thus leaving the statement vague, unquantifiable and doesn’t necessarily mean she got that much stronger. For example 2^1.1 is an exponential increase however the answer to that equation is just 2.14; a minimal increase.
b. The Kaguya that absorbed this was not just an unstable Kaguya but a fatigued and damaged Kaguya. Zetsu stated that her moving dimension was very taxing and that she needing to start preserving her chakra for emergencies as she was running low. He then states if she doesn’t go for the kill now they might seal her to which she then needed to use it twice again after that so she wouldn’t get hurt.
To illustrate how much weaker she had gotten, at the start of their fight she was able to casually knock Naruto back to the point where he can’t stop smiling and one shot sasuke’s susano,
https://imgur.com/a/qiE6JyH
Naruto needing to use boil release in tandem with the region combo in which this amp was stated to boast a power that equals lee’s command of the 8 gates in she databook, to overwhelm her.
https://imgur.com/a/qiE6JyH
Which should at least be a 24x amp according to this statement.
https://imgur.com/a/qiE6JyH
To her getting blitzed and having her arm ripped off and having a prolonged fight with sasuke’s susano with him even landing a hit and her needing multiple hits to destroy it.
https://imgur.com/a/Ar4umpD
Clearly showing she got weaker throughout the fight.
Further more we know that she lost her hand which is an even bigger nerf because chakra is drawn from cells, According to this: https://imgur.com/a/Ar4umpD
Her losing her arm means she’s losing a large amount of cells that she can’t draw power from anymore.
c) it’s stated the IT amps BOTH her might and speed. How can she get amped by billions of times yet she still got blitzed by kakashi?
https://imgur.com/a/mlja9RQ
The site even aggrees that kakashi might have just cut her with raw ap depending on your interpretations of kamui lightning blade.
How did billions of times stronger Kaguya get her horn broken by Sakura? Her byakugan is active and she can see Sakura
https://imgur.com/a/IvkxZuo
So sure Kaguya might have gotten exponentially stronger, nothing suggests she got much stronger than her normally at peak performance.
2. Why the Hell is she still scared of Momoshiki (as sasuke Confirms ) if she could just absorb chakra to become billions of times stronger than him to one shot that mf?
She already had them trapped in the IT, why was she still fiending for Naruto and sasuke’s chakra to the point where she was risking getting sealed.
Why does she need an army to oppose him?
We know the person she envisioned coming to beat her ass was him as seen in the anime canon flashback.
“Momoshiki can absorb her ninjutsu and throw it back stronger”
Yeah that’s irrelevant because he won’t be able to absorb her “potentially strongest offensive jutsu” which is her Vaccum fists.
We know momoshiki can’t absorb chakra limbs or living beings of chakra, seeing as he didn’t absorb Naruto’s Kurama avatar even though that’s the power he’s after.
This is consistent throughout the series. Delta could not absorb Naruto’s chakra arms, jigen could not absorb susano or Kurama avatar isshiki could not shrink Naruto’s chakra arms, etc.
Even if u want to say her etso isn’t an offensive ability (it is blatantly stated to be Both offensive and defensive ) , Kaguya is still the juubi jinjuriki and should capable of releasing bombs, using shinra tensei (can that even be absorbed?, etc, and yet her vacuum fists are stated to be above all that.
According to the calc above her ap would still be 4B even if u say she doesn’t scale to the fully grown etso.
It just doesn’t make sense for her to require an army if both of them don’t scale to it.
This same momoshiki she’s scared of has been going around absorbing planets and powering up for 1000 years straight while she was sealed let alone characters like code, isshiki, daemon, baryon mode that would massively out scale base Momo many times over.
3. There are multiple statements to imply that anything kaguya could accomplish has been surpassed.
1. The majestic attire susano
The statement says “producing a God of war with the strongest offense and defense”
In what sense would it only be talking about in the confines of Naruto and Sasuke? The statement is clearly made to be in comparison with others.
Talks about offensive and defensive ability in which the scan above says the Tso’s are offensive and defensive abilities.
But for some reason the site accepts this statement as it being in the confines of Naruto and Sasuke’s arsenal which nothing supports that.
If you want to put that limitations on it the burden of proof is on you to prove that negative.
The Kaguya fight was literally 2 arcs before that statement, which was a generalization. If it was in the confines of their abilities it would have said their strongest ninjutsu but no it generalizes and just says ninjutsu meaning anything before that statement goes.
The guide is talking about how Naruto and Sasuke are the strongest in general, why would we then start assuming it’s only talking about the confines of their abilities
2. The Vaccum fists scan from above says it’s potentially the strongest ninjutsu. Which at the time of the Kaguya fight, it blatantly is in a general sense and not in her arsenal. Nothing prior to its debut is as strong as that jutsu. Already gave further justifications for this statement above. Why should we then use different standards when talking about the mas?
3. Isshiki is stated to be their STRONGEST AND WORST ENEMY on the official Naruto site.
He is literally the ONLY enemy they have at the time so it has to be talking about all the enemies they’ve ever had. For some reason the site believes “yeah the statement goes for everything EXCEPT IT KAGUYA” like IT Kaguya wasn’t their enemy.
As stated before if the burden of proof is on you to prove this negative.
4. Further proof of characters scaling to this level is in this boruto manga guide, koji and jigen’s fight is stated to shake a dimension with a starry sky inside it.
proof that dimension has a starry sky:
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
youtu.be
There is no one else inside that dimension so it’s not metaphorical, their batttle was literally shaking the dimension.
Isshiki is then stated to have the power to manipulate dimensions in the official Naruto site.
This is not referring to space time ninjutsu because he has no ability like that, unlike Kaguya. He just opens a portal and teleports. Has nothing to do with manipulating dimensions as a whole the dimensions
This is referring to the fact that koji thought isshiki was going to “DESTROY THIS WHOLE SPACE” of that same dimension with a starry sky via shrinking.
This is just supporting evidence and can be gone in depth in another thread as it’s not really the point of this thread.
5. Some common counters
“But uzihiko is one of the strongest abilities. Firstly, uzihiko is stated in the most literal way endless to have power that does not stop rushing and boruto doesn’t use it immediately but takes time to charge it up. It can be as strong as whatever u need it to be wants to be depending on how long u charge it. After you’re hit with it, the energy doesn’t stop it keeps on flowing into u until its deactivated or u die. it is not an anti-feat.
“The power progression is too large” this is not an argument. Mfs in bleach go from moon level to galaxy level apparently, fhis is nothing. Just because it doesn’t “feel” right to u doesn’t mean anything.
Fodders like juubito and below don’t scale to this, so6p madara, sasuke and naruto barely do and only reach this level when sasuke absorbs the tailed beasts and nature energy of the planet at the end. Then later reach this level in their normal states after the timeskip.
“Naruto and sasuke only have 50% of hagoromo this doesn’t make sense”
This is a bad interpretation of the series. Hagoromo gave them 50% of his power each then they took that power and further awakened more abilities to grow even stronger. That 50% is closer to base Naruto than full power Naruto.
We know this because Kurama also got a six paths amp, Naruto then awakened six paths senjutsu to then further amplify both him and Kurama’s already amped states. As nature energy takes what you already have then further multiplies it.
If the 50% is all Naruto uses, he would be barely weaker when Kurama dies as Kurama would be fodder atp in the series.
Sasuke got his own 50% and awakened a tomoe rinnegan as well as perfect susano to stack on his already existing eternal mangekyo sharingan.
Conclusion: Kaguya and everyone above her should always scale to 4B frb.
Slightly weaker characters like so6p Naruto, sasuke and madara (debatably) would be High 4C (Kaguya went from one shotting sasuke’s susano to destroying it in 4 hits , implying 4 times weaker) if u are using the 1 hour calc but if you’re using the 10 minute one they would all be 4B
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