- 9,226
- 3,367
is powered by the same stuff as sonic who erased the chaos force as a concept
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Mxyzptlyk vs Enerjak
- Thread starter Ned_the_outer_god
- Start date
- Status
- 107
- 12
I mean, firstly that Is pure speculation, secondly there really isn't anything that prove Sonic ereased It on a conceptual level. He might Just have Just destroyed with enough force to Just overpower It and erease It. Plus, It was totally on accidenti, and needed the Genesis Wave to pull It Off. The Chaos force might not even be destroyed in the First Place. Ian said It was "dropped as a concept" might Simply mean they Just aren't allowed to use It anyonre as a worldbuilding element, but It can still be there, Simply in this new timeline nobody Discovered It, or nobody really cared mention. I mean, beyond Penders, most writers didn't really use the Chaos Force anyway, but that didn't mean It did not exist. Enerjak never ever used conceptual manipulation, not even once, not even when he was bragging about his Powers to Kunckles so really it's waaay too inconsistent to apply to him. Onestly this Is not enough to convince me of his concept manipulation. Not only Is incredibily inconsistent, the feat itself Is too vague and has way too many variabile to be considered for concept manipulation
- 9,226
- 3,367
ok if u don’t agree with it then make a revision lol, i’m just going off the profile
- 107
- 12
I'm pretty new to this. I'm not sure how to make a revision
- 9,226
- 3,367
Content Revision
Often, statistics and other important contents for profile pages need to be revised. Any discussion pertaining to such revisions must be done in this board. Before posting, make sure that your arguments are presented in a manner that is easy to understand and backed by valid scans. In...
go here and make a thread on the topic
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 7,994
- 6,241
Make a revision thread on it. But I can assure you, considering that there's been around a dozen or so conversations about this topic in the past that aimed to remove it and failed, it's not going anywhere and your line of logic will fall flat.
- 107
- 12
I mean, of you can give me One other example of concept manipulation in the series, then I might consider It true
- 9,226
- 3,367
i mean, it doesn’t matter what u think is true or not if ur not gonna make a revision it stays on the pages
- 14,934
- 21,039
Ian Flynn said the Chaos Force being dropped as a concept was caused in-universe by “the purge” induced by the Super Genesis Wave.
“But Super Genesis Wave, the purge, yadda yadda yadda - “Chaos Force” doesn’t exist in the comic anymore.”
Destroying a concept is Conceptual Manipulation.
Irrelevant.
Sonic and the Genesis Wave have the same abilities due to both having the power of the Chaos Emeralds.
1. Nah, he outright says it doesn’t exist anymore, read the link I sent above.
2. Power-scaling. Their abilities stem from the same source ergo they’re capable of replicating the same feats.
- 5,974
- 7,609
@De6DimensionalDream
I'm sorry, where's it stated that Sonic needed the SGW? He used Chaos Control alongside Mega Man to reverse its effects, and he only failed to reset the multiverse because he was interrupted by Eggman in the process. And even if we assume he needed the Wave, he and the thing are powered by the Chaos Emeralds so anything that the wave does so can Super Sonic
I'm sorry, where's it stated that Sonic needed the SGW? He used Chaos Control alongside Mega Man to reverse its effects, and he only failed to reset the multiverse because he was interrupted by Eggman in the process. And even if we assume he needed the Wave, he and the thing are powered by the Chaos Emeralds so anything that the wave does so can Super Sonic
- 5,974
- 7,609
Also, I'd like to add to Maverick's point that Sonic can erase on a conceptual level, because Ian also stated that Pre Genesis concepts like Maginary World no longer existed in the new continuity
- 107
- 12
If you watch, you can see that he put "Chaos Force" in quotation mark. To me, that implies that the concept of there being a Chaos Force is removed, not the Chaos Force itself. The fact that it was an accident is relevant in this case. Sonic clearly has no intention of doing that, and there isn't any proof he can just do that at will whenever he pleases. Remember how Sonic did it. He essentially created a ball of pure chaos energy, then Eggman did stuff, causing it to malfunction, to the point not even Sonic knew its effect, then launced the ball into the SGW, wich seem to have created a sort of reaction (It's very unclear, onestly, so this point it's up to interpretation) which launched the reboot. To me, this is clearly not completly Sonic's doing. But even then, even ignoring all of this, it still does not scale directly to Enerjak. Enerjak was directly compared to one chaos emerald (from Shadow's line "It's like he is a living chaos emerald"), while the SGW uses all of 7. And yes, the difference between one and seven is massive. Eggman even says that one emerald was only able to rewrite reality in 2 separate universes, and pretty badly at that, to the point where they could not directly alter peaple's soul and only doing minor changes. Seven CE, however, can rewrite the entire multiverse with seemingly no limitation. The argument "Knuckles uses the Master emerald to turn into Enerjak, which is composed by 11 emeralds, so he should scale to SGW" has also many problems. firstly, it seems pretty clear to me that he obviusly did not have the power of the entire ME, or else it would have drained it completly, but has rather a small portion of it, second, obviusly is the fact that he never displayed powers similar to the SGW or anything close to that, and of course he never displayed conceptual manipulation powers. As we see, it isn't enough to have a chaos emerald to anything you want with it. You need the proper knoweldge, ability or technology to fully use its power, or else Eggman and Wily would't have build that machine in the first place. Saying that Enerjak should scale to SGW and Super Sonic just because they use the same source is like scaling a solar panel to Superman because they both draw energy from the sun. But onestly even if we assume that erasing it was all Sonic's doing, and Enerjak scale to him, it doesn't really matter because, well, I still don't understand why the Chaos Force is considered a concept. A concwept of what? In what issue was it said? How does it prove its status as a concept? Should be considered a concept like Darkseid or The Endless are?
- 9,226
- 3,367
thats still conceptual manipulation
- 107
- 12
I mean, the concept of It from a storytelling point of view. For instance, in the book series Dexter, the author introduced the concept of a demon that was posessing the main character. This concept was hated by fan, and therefore It was never mention or explored again in the following books. This isn't Dexter ereasing It from existence, it's Just the writer not paying attention to that element, or at most, a Retcon. When I Say that the concept was removed I don't mean Sonic removing the concept himself, I mean the writer not having permission to use It, so dropping "the concept", but that has nothing to do with Sonic's abilities. And again, I still Need proof to the fact that the Chaos Force Is actually a concept
- 9,226
- 3,367
its verbatim stated that the SGW is the thing that removed it. IAN LITERALLY STATED THIS. its not some vague plot hole, the sgw literally retconned the comic itself. the sgw is powered by chaos emeralds, guess what powers super sonic?
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 7,994
- 6,241
Headcanon.
Sonic's imbued with the same power that allows the Super Genesis Wave to do it. End of story.
Sonic was going to restore his reality and had no choice but to launch his Chaos Control, because an off-chance is better than no chance at all. You do know Chaos Energy allows the user to do anything they desire, right? It's why they have Reality Warping and Subjective Reality.
Knuckles is also stated to be like a living Chaos Emerald. You mean to tell me you believe Base Knuckles is equal to Enerjak?
Nobody used this argument, but you're kinda missing the point anyways.
They don't need the power of the entirety of the Chaos Emeralds nor Master Emerald to have Low 1-C power. It's exactly why Turbo Tails can survive attacks from Chaos Knuckles, and why three Super Forms can take on a Chaos Force being.
- 14,934
- 21,039
Stop ignoring the evidence dude. The Chaos Force’s omission from the Post-SGW Era wasn’t some unexplained retcon, it literally stated it was due to “the purge” induced by the events of Worlds Collide.
- 107
- 12
Ok. I accept It Is removed (even if It come entirely on WOG, but ok), I also accept that SS Is entirely responble for the feat (to some extent), and that Enerjak scalea to him. Even then, I still haven't seen It proved that the Chaos Force Is an actual concept.
- 9,226
- 3,367
1. concession accepted.
2. i dont think that really matters, the fact that they erased the concept of it still counts
- 107
- 12
Yeah that It also something that bothers me. Why are the Super Forms Listed as Low 1-C? I mean, for what I read, they are most of the time on Planet level, with only One Major multiversal feat of reality warping from SS and SGW
- 14,934
- 21,039
Cite all the Planetary feats and explain how they contradict the Multiversal ones.
- 9,226
- 3,367
they literally reset the cosmology.......
- 107
- 12
Ok the CF was erased, that I accept, but there Is really no indicati in It was erased on a conceptual level. Even then, we still don't know the implication or what this comport. Like can Sonic actually affect platonico concept like Love or Good or Evil? Can he control the concept of a being?
I didn't Say It contraddicts, but One Is a reality warping feat, the other are pure physical feat. I doubt they can Just destroy the multiverse every time they punch. It's not really consistent for them to do it
- 9,226
- 3,367
we literally just explained why he- omfg
ShakeResounding
He/Him- 7,994
- 6,241
Sweet lord have mercy, this is not what I wanted to discuss on a Friday...
- 9,226
- 3,367
he can literally damage people on his level....., whats inconsistent for them to destroy the multiverse with a punch?
- 14,934
- 21,039
Area of Effect =/= Attack Potency, that’s how this site works.
“An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction.”
You still need to provide the consistent Planetary feats if you’re claiming they’re “usually” that strong.
- 5,974
- 7,609
Maybe I'm just a buffoon here but didn't Enerjak like physically use Chaos imbued energy in blasts and attacks and stuff, while Sonic was pummeling him senseless? It's not the only example, I get that, but if we're going to say that they can use their energy physically then there ya go
- 14,934
- 21,039
Enerjak only having power equivalent to a single Chaos Emerald is definitely the strangest claim I’ve ever heard
Anyway can’t wait for the next wall of text
Anyway can’t wait for the next wall of text
- 40,947
- 35,401
Oh good lord...
Make a CRT and argue planet level Archie(lol) there.
Make a CRT and argue planet level Archie(lol) there.
- 14,934
- 21,039
I would like to see the backing for “they’re Planet level most of the time”, because I have encyclopedic knowledge of the series and remember very few 5-B feats
- 40,947
- 35,401
How many 5-B feats are there compared to Low 2-C?
- 5,974
- 7,609
Legit the only planet level feat I could think of is when that evil Super Sonic clone destroyed a planet during the Penders run, but even then I believe that was pretty much a small feat that a normal Super Sonic could do so much more of
- 14,934
- 21,039
Planetary
- Scourge claiming Enerjak and Super Sonic’s battle will destroy Mobius
- Super Scourge claiming he’ll Spin Dash Mobius in half during a tantrum
Universal - Multiversal
- The first Genesis Wave recreating Sonic’s universe
- The second Genesis Wave recreating Sonic and Mega Man’s universes
- Feist reshaping the Special Zone into the Zone of Silence
- Master Mogul crushing universes on screen and threatening to destroy the multiverse
- The Super Genesis Wave destroying the multiverse and recreating it in Eggman’s image
- Super Sonic accidentally collapsing the multiverse
- The Master Emerald threatening to recreate the multiverse
- 107
- 12
Ok this one is on me because I still don't know how to use the website and I messed up when writing. Sorry about that. What I wanted to say is: I still don't see the feat of Sonic ereasing the CF as concept maninpulation. Let's see Ian's response. He says at first "Chaos Force is dropped as aconcept". I think this is clearly meant to be viewd from a storytelling point of view. It literally said dropped, not erased or anything similar, and I think it pretty clearly means it as a pure storytelling concept. THEN, one asks a question, where he goes more in depht on the in canon mechanics, and essentially says that the SGW essentially erased/purged it from existence and that the function of the emeralds are changed now because of it. Now, Ian does not says "The Chaos force was ereased on a conceptual level" or anything like that, he simply says "The Chaos Force was dropped as a concept" clearly referring from a storytelling point of view, and then in another answer he says how it was destroyed by the SGW. Even then, this still raises more questions. Like, on what level can Sonic erease concepts? Can he desroy platonic concepts like Good, or Love or Hate? Can he modify the concept of a person? And how come no other character has ever used it in the story? Can he just do like Black Clover High Rank Demons and destroy conceptual barriers that do not exist in our reality? To me it really seems that this whole Concept manipulation thing only really exist by cherrypicking a WoG statements, which still is questionable to begin with
- 7,501
- 3,868
Pretty sure he has the power of 12 emeralds, no idea where one comes from
Argument from incredulity and derrail
- 14,934
- 21,039
This is legit the same argument you’ve been using from the start. Not even humoring that with a rebuttal anymore.
He can destroy concepts, you’re over complicating shit.
“Concept Destruction: The ability to destroy or remove a concept. By using the ability concepts are removed from reality. This can be wide-spread or very targeted, either erasing the concept of an overarching fundamental principle, such as space, or an individual. When destroyed at this level, nothing can be restored without using similarly powerful conceptual creation. Conventional regeneration or resurrection, no matter how powerful, would prove impossible as the very abstract concept of the character would not exist.“
- 5,974
- 7,609
@De6DimensionalDream what does Black Clover or Platonic concepts have to do with Sonic doing conceptual erasure? Also why is the statement being cherrypicked? Ian is clearly stating that the SGW purged/erased the Chaos Force out of the Post Genesis continuity and not that the writers got rid of it in a story sense; plus even if we discard it as cherrypicking, how do you respond to the statement also made by Ian that the SGW directly affected and removed Pre Genesis concepts such as Maginary World out of the new continuity? Sounds like conceptual erasure to me
- 14,934
- 21,039
Wait, this match-up was determined to be a stomp awhile ago due to Mxy’s embarrassingly outdated profile, this should just be closed.
- 107
- 12
I'm not overcomplicating anything. This is just basic question anyone would ask if someone said that a character can manipulate concepts. If I said "A character can manipulate minds" you obviusly would think "On what level? Can he mind control more peaple than one? Can he erease memories or just control minds?" I think we can all agree that Martian Manhunter mind manuipulation is different from Naminé's mind manipulation. I'm simply asking how does Sonic affect them, on what level, and how exactly are "concept" presented in the AS universe? These are basic question I think a power scalerneeds to know. But i think you all missed my point. I'm okay with Sonic ereasing the Chaos Force, I'm okay with SGW purging the damn thing from all time and space of whaterver. I'm okay with the existence erasure of the whole Multiversal structure. What I'm not okay is saying this feat is proof of conceptual manipulation. Existence ereasure is not automaticly concept manipulation
My example with BC is that there we are given a proper way to deal with it. We are shown on page, with no other WoG statements, that things are being affected on a conceptual level, and we are even given direct confermation that they don't phisicly exists in our reality, which only gives more proof of the metaphysical state of these structures. In comparason, Sonic's feat is "he ereased some things from existence" which comes from an outside source and it does not make mention of conceptual manipulation or anything similar (As I think I pretty clearly explained, in my opinion when Ian is saying "dropped as a concept" he simply mean it on a storytelling level, he is not implying actual conceptual ereasing from our characters)
- Status
Similar threads
