Musashi Miyamoto vs Geralt of Rivia (GRACE)

[Twellas]

I am not sure why you got so deep into the whole pain endurance/resistance on Baki when I simply replied that witchers are as easily capable of enduring abnormal amounts of pain as the baki's gang are.

you showed 2 cases of them merely surviving pain not even mid-combat, which is what prompted me to explain that difference

Geralt despite having a gaping hole in his chest simply ignored it and managed to counter-attack.

the scene you linked just implies that he was getting cut, no "hole"

It is even noted by Roche that witchers in general have high pain resistance after Geralt was jailed and beaten.

yeah nobody is contesting that, I'm not saying that they're just some average humans lol

If they properly go into combat, witchers either drink a potion or go in a trance like state where they hypnotize themselves and have no sense of pain whatsoever. After fights Witchers are totally unaware of the damage they've taken while in combat

Yeah this stuff is really the only things worth noting that you brought up, but I guess they'de be dependant on what kind of potion they take, because I'm pretty sure there are some scenes where he's on potions but still feels pain. If he is on THESE particular potions then yeah, he can probably not get KO'd by one slash

Geralt even had a injury so severe in his neck that it was so cut up badly his insides could be seen.

yeah and he was incapacitated by that, this is from the very first portion of the first book, right?

And to properly asses the previous points, the acidic blood and potions in general give witchers high amounts of toxicity which in fact drains their vitality but don't really get bothered by the pain they experience

yeah but as I said, they are built for that, so it's not quantifiable, it wouldn't be equal to the pain a human feels while being melted by acid because humans don't have resistance

Kiyan went mad due to a multitude of reasons. He was tortured, starved, dehydrated, etc. for months before he succumbed and even after that he can still get up and fight toe-to-toe against Geralt.

ok but like, the torture ended a while back so right now he's just kinda dealing with the pain of not having skin, which is nothing to scoff at, don't get me wrong, does it compare to having your limbs exploded from the inside out, or having your brachial artery bitten off? I don't know

Trial of the Grasses more so plays to the fact what happens to the candidate afterwards as the process itself takes a total of seven days to complete, in each of these candidates experiences never ending pain as they are being melted from the inside. Once the trial completes the new witcher literally forgets the pain he experienced from said trial which speaks for the pain resistance that they have.

ok, but they couldn't fight while undergoing that procedure, could they?

I also don't understand why you bring up Baki when we have Hanayama and Motobe as prime examples of what happens to people who Musashi cuts. (I mean, Musashi actually properly fought these two unlike baki who only half-assess it)

he didn't use the imaginary sword on any of them and he was expressly stated to be suppressed against Motobe, so no, they are not more relevant fights

Musashi tries to use his imaginary swords

that's not the imaginary sword, that's just Musashi's expectation of what should have happened to Hanayama's hand

Then there's Motobe who actually got seriously cut by Musashi but he still manages to fight him until he managed to choke him.

the entire point of that fight was that Musashi was suppressed and could have killed Motobe whenever he wanted, so I don't see how this is a relevant showing. You can't compare his real swords to the mind slashes because the mind slashes are a form of mind-manipulation that works down to a cellular level while the slashes are just physical trauma, no different than a punch or a bite, so of course they'd cause less pain. Besides, his imaginary swords are outright stated to be sharper than his real ones, so yeah

And to top it off, Baki isn't completely inprevious to pain. Sure he gets more and more resilient in each fight but he still goes out screaming when Musashi kicks him in the balls, Yujiro isn't immune to this technique either.

yeeeah, it's whatever, in-verse getting kicked in the balls is just consistently displayed to be the worst pain possible, I think we can both agree that IRL a brain hemorrhage hurts more than getting kicked in the nuts, but in Baki the testicles are considered a vital organ and directly compared to the brain, heart and kidneys, it's not a counter-feat as much as just just an in-verse quirk, they just have sensitive nuts lol. Besides, it's not like it'd ever come up in this fight, unless Geralt has a ball-buster move or something.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Having your body's largest organ which is also responsible for regulating body temperature, hydration, protection against irradiation from UV light probably hurts about as much if not more

Also Geralt is a bit of a brawler when it comes to unarmed combat so kicking someone in the dick is probably something he's familiar with lol

 

[Twellas]

for the sake of the argument let's just assume that geralt can tank the mind slash, he feels it but tanks it.
They both have a day of prep, which supposedly means they have some info on each other, Musashi only ***** around with people he knows for a fact are not a serious threat to him, he didn't mess around while fighting Pickle, Retsu, Yujiro or Baki the second time, so we can assume he won't pull some "i'll let you get one in" shenanigans

 

[Twellas]

What exactly prevents Musashi from using the 0.5 and cutting Geralt's head off?

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

You can't compare his real swords to the mind slashes because the mind slashes are a form of mind-manipulation that works down to a cellular level while the slashes are just physical trauma, no different than a punch or a bite, so of course they'd cause less pain.

Is it really?

Witchers are highly resistant to psionic spells and mind manipulation in general. Axii as a sign is capable of fully taking control of several minds but for a witcher it simply muddles their thoughts a bit. It took a mage with prior knowledge and specific psionic spells half an hour to take control of a witchers mind.

 

[Twellas]

it's not LITERALLY mind manipulation, it's just not physical, so it inherently has to have something to do with the mind, but, as I said, it works on a cellular level throughout the entire body which obviously includes the brain. As I said, let's just assume Geralt can tank it, k? Let's talk about the actual fight

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

it's not LITERALLY mind manipulation, it's just not physical, so it inherently has to have something to do with the mind, but, as I said, it works on a cellular level throughout the entire body which obviously includes the brain. As I said, let's just assume Geralt can tank it, k? Let's talk about the actual fight

I've always found Musashi's imaginary swords really damn weird to define on what they are. Seemingly the closest thing they are is astral projection but it doesn't really effect the soul, but as you put it, it effects the mind and the body to the cellular level. Seemingly a limited form of mind manipulation and fear induction which is what is written.

What exactly prevents Musashi from using the 0.5 and cutting Geralt's head off?

Most often I'd say quen, but because this is a warrior opponent Geralt's facing then It is his enhanced senses, analytical prediction and minor instinctive reactions are his saving grace. Musashi's 0.5 s is really finicky as it is a term because the actual time period where the mind does unconscious actions is actually 0.08 s so in a way Musashi is actually slower than the average human but that's just an oversight.

I'm more curious to know how Musashi's level's of precognition and 0.5s will clash against Geralt's analytical prediction and potions buff he receives. They both can predict an attack before it has even commenced and while their speed is equalized they can both amplify their speeds considerably. In my humble opinion Geralt while has a tiny bit of disadvantage when it comes to prediction as Musashi predicts movements of the likes of Baki, Geralt has the advantage of having a sword fighting style that is highly unpredictable while also making it be ready to counter-attack and evade hidden attacks. Geralt's minor instinctive reaction also helps to a certain degree alongside his enhanced senses to detect Musashi's attacks.

 

[Twellas]

I've always found Musashi's imaginary swords really damn weird to define on what they are. Seemingly the closest thing they are is astral projection but it doesn't really effect the soul, but as you put it, it effects the mind and the body to the cellular level. Seemingly a limited form of mind manipulation and fear induction which is what is written.

I just consider them to be the same thing as Baki's imagination to some extent

Musashi's 0.5 s is really finicky as it is a term because the actual time period where the mind does unconscious actions is actually 0.08 s so in a way Musashi is actually slower than the average human but that's just an oversight.

The value is true, t's just a much more complex thing than the snippet we are given in-verse. Basically, the way conscious action works is that volition is "generated" (we have no idea how this works really) in the primary motor cortex but before the muscles actually move the signal passes through several nervous centers such as the basal ganglia, the cerebellum and the secondary motor corteces that are tasked to "refine" and check the input, AND THEN they let the muscles move. IRL this time has been registered to take anywhere from 0.5 to 1.5 seconds, depending on the action and the person. This is usually mistaken for another value, which is the time it takes the brain to process sensory stimuli, which is the one you're talking about.

I'm more curious to know how Musashi's level's of precognition and 0.5s will clash against Geralt's analytical prediction and potions buff he receives. They both can predict an attack before it has even commenced and while their speed is equalized they can both amplify their speeds considerably. In my humble opinion Geralt while has a tiny bit of disadvantage when it comes to prediction as Musashi predicts movements of the likes of Baki, Geralt has the advantage of having a sword fighting style that is highly unpredictable while also making it be ready to counter-attack and evade hidden attacks. Geralt's minor instinctive reaction also helps to a certain degree alongside his enhanced senses to detect Musashi's attacks.

Musashi comes from a time when literally every single swordsman could use the 0.5 technique and at the time he was basically a one man army and could kill tens of them one after another; he's obviously massively more skilled than Motobe who can still casually outmaneuver Gaia and catch him by surprise despite him being able to read the opponent's mind. Retsu and Baki also have extensive instinctive reaction, hell, Retsu's IR stays active even after he's dead and Baki can have an entire fight with his body moving on his own, so IR isn't some silver bullet technique here. The point of the 0.5 is that you're unconscious during it, you can't react, you can't "counterattack"

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

I just consider them to be the same thing as Baki's imagination to some extent

Baki's imagination while seemingly also has an aura similar to Musashi and has some effect it isn't as offensive and effective as Musashi's as he straight up makes people think they've been physically cut.

The value is true, t's just a much more complex thing than the snippet we are given in-verse. Basically, the way conscious action works is that volition is "generated" (we have no idea how this works really) in the primary motor cortex but before the muscles actually move the signal passes through several nervous centers such as the basal ganglia, the cerebellum and the secondary motor corteces that are tasked to "refine" and check the input, AND THEN they let the muscles move. IRL this time has been registered to take anywhere from 0.5 to 1.5 seconds, depending on the action and the person. This is usually mistaken for another value, which is the time it takes the brain to process sensory stimuli, which is the one you're talking about.

As I said, it might've been intended or just a simple oversight and Itagaki probably intended.

It however now possess a even more mind-boggling question...

Musashi comes from a time when literally every single swordsman could use the 0.5 technique and at the time he was basically a one man army and could kill tens of them one after another; he's obviously massively more skilled than Motobe who can still casually outmaneuver Gaia and catch him by surprise despite him being able to read the opponent's mind. Retsu and Baki also have extensive instinctive reaction, hell, Retsu's IR stays active even after he's dead and Baki can have an entire fight with his body moving on his own, so IR isn't some silver bullet technique here. The point of the 0.5 is that you're unconscious during it, you can't react, you can't "counterattack"

How does the 0.5 technique work on Witchers?

They have a very different physiology to humans due to the trial of the grasses and their brains process information very differently to humans. Human Time reaction as you put it is between 0.5 to 1.5 seconds while, lets say for example, a cats total reaction time is 0.02 to 0.07 seconds, and I mean as in full body reaction time. Cats have faster reaction time than humans have for stimuli reaction. Musashi can pick up signals of other fighters and warriors but they're still human to some degree (barring the ogre, son of ogre, and pickle) and Musashi is capable of picking up their signals because the time it takes for them to make a move is 0.5 seconds but Geralt's who's a witcher has has faster process time than 0.5s and Geralt's shown consistently to be faster than humans even begin to make a reaction. There's even one feat funnily enough that is very similar to when Musashi blocked Baki's barrages as in, blocking multiple hits so fast it makes one sound.

 

[Twellas]

How does the 0.5 technique work on Witchers?

They have a very different physiology to humans due to the trial of the grasses and their brains process information very differently to humans. Human Time reaction as you put it is between 0.5 to 1.5 seconds while, lets say for example, a cats total reaction time is 0.02 to 0.07 seconds, and I mean as in full body reaction time. Cats have faster reaction time than humans have for stimuli reaction. Musashi can pick up signals of other fighters and warriors but they're still human to some degree (barring the ogre, son of ogre, and pickle) and Musashi is capable of picking up their signals because the time it takes for them to make a move is 0.5 seconds but Geralt's who's a witcher has has faster process time than 0.5s and Geralt's shown consistently to be faster than humans even begin to make a reaction. There's even one feat funnily enough that is very similar to when Musashi blocked Baki's barrages as in, blocking multiple hits so fast it makes one sound.

Musashi can sprint a good 5 meters in at most 0.0009 seconds, baki-verse Muhammed Ali could throw a punch in 0.1 seconds, even as far back as the start of Son of Ogre Baki could throw a full 3 hit combination during that very 0.5s technique, Yujiro can dodge lightning while off-guard, which means that he can see the lightning, process the information, send the signal to his muscles and move in the time it would have taken lightning to strike him, which is obviously less than 0.5 seconds. No, they are clearly not hard-bound to that timeframe. The way it most likely works is simply that if one of the two manages to "catch" the thought, then the 0.5s rule applies, otherwise it doesn't.
Also I'm fairly sure that Baki's brain is anatomically more different from a human than Geralt's lol

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

Bumping this thread.

Also, there was something that I realized that could change how this entire fight goes on.

The Baki top tiers have a sort of aura that basically manifests and intimidates people around them and Musashi is one with the most predominant one via his imaginary swords. Geralt's Silver Medallion is capable of picking even the faintest of supernatural auras from monsters so if it picks up Musashi's aura this changes the fight from a Warrior vs Warrior to a Witcher vs Supernatural being mentality.

This changes A LOT when it comes to how Geralt fights as he no longer entirely relies on his swordsmanship but his entire arsenal (meaning bombs, signs, oils, daggers, etc.). This would entirely change the tide on how Geralt approaches Musashi as with the Help of Signs it greatly favors Geralt.

 

[noisyPitta]

This changes A LOT when it comes to how Geralt fights as he no longer entirely relies on his swordsmanship but his entire arsenal (meaning bombs, signs, oils, daggers, etc.). This would entirely change the tide on how Geralt approaches Musashi as with the Help of Signs it greatly favors Geralt.

I was assuming Geralt would already be using all this. With a day of prep time there's no reason why he wouldn't be loaded with pots and bombs, and given the little intro you wrote, they would have already met once for Geralt to formulate a strategy. I don't know that Musashi is as versatile or adaptable when it comes to preparing for a fight.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Geralt FRA.

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

I was assuming Geralt would already be using all this. With a day of prep time there's no reason why he wouldn't be loaded with pots and bombs, and given the little intro you wrote, they would have already met once for Geralt to formulate a strategy. I don't know that Musashi is as versatile or adaptable when it comes to preparing for a fight.

Hmm, Musashi’s only form of preparation is really only going to train his cutting capabilities as his way of techniques and fighting is to adapt on the spot while fighting which is why he usually gives opponents free moves on him. He usually adapts and overcomes martial artists masters as he himself is a master fighter and swordsmaster and thus is easily capable of adapting on the spot but Geralt is a unique case as he quite literally wields magic and is a master sowrdsman himself.

While Geralt has the advantage from the signs and equipment, Musashi has the advantage of the aforementioned 0.5 technique which allows him to basically avoid any attacks while also capable of attacking while unconscious (which is still debatable on how it effects Geralt).

This battle is essentially a battle of attrition in whoever can chip damage before a major blow is struck.

 

[noisyPitta]

Hmm, Musashi’s only form of preparation is really only going to train his cutting capabilities as his way of techniques and fighting is to adapt on the spot while fighting which is why he usually gives opponents free moves on him. He usually adapts and overcomes martial artists masters as he himself is a master fighter and swordsmaster and thus is easily capable of adapting on the spot but Geralt is a unique case as he quite literally wields magic and is a master sowrdsman himself.

Geralt gets way more from prep time than most people, and considering he would have already interacted with and strategised against his opponent, this starts to look a bit more comfortable for him.

 

[Doggo]

Geralt FRA

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

counting

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Geralt fra

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

Alright this concludes as Grace then.

 

[Twellas]

What part of "Musashi reads his mind as soon as the fight starts and cuts his head off without him being able to react" gets countered by Geralt having bombs or prep, exactly? Like, y'all are completely ignoring the tiny little fact that Geralt can't do anything about his precog

Geralt is a unique case as he quite literally wields magic and is a master sowrdsman himself.

listen, let's not act like Geralt is even remotely comparable in skill to Musashi, as I said, he comes from a time when everyone could read each other's brain signals via skill and even then he could easily take down dozens of those men at the same time despite them being armed; he even considers Retsu to be a "pretty regular" dude, just another one of his fights, and if you've read Baki, I don't think I need to explain Retsu's skill feats and scaling (EDIT, ok no, Musashi states that Retsu was definitely not regular, but still, you get what I’m saying)

I guess it's grace, so whatever, but to me it's just completely mental that EVERYBODY is acting like Musashi doesn't have an instakill technique Geralt can't counter whatsoever

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

What part of "Musashi reads his mind as soon as the fight starts and cuts his head off without him being able to react" gets countered by Geralt having bombs or prep, exactly? Like, y'all are completely ignoring the tiny little fact that Geralt can't do anything about his precog

listen, let's not act like Geralt is even remotely comparable in skill to Musashi, as I said, he comes from a time when everyone could read each other's brain signals via skill and even then he could easily take down dozens of those men at the same time despite them being armed; he even considers Retsu to be a "pretty regular" dude, just another one of his fights, and if you've read Baki, I don't think I need to explain Retsu's skill feats and scaling

I guess it's grace, so whatever, but to me it's just completely mental that EVERYBODY is acting like Musashi doesn't have an instakill technique Geralt can't counter whatsoever

Geralt can flicker his finger and make Musashi kill himself.

It is an actual wincon that Witchers are fully capable of using on majority of battles they're in, but most don't (aside from lambert) due to in-universe explanation of it's rather addictive and rather unmoral usage as you're essentially taking full control of someones.

The "Flicker his finger" part also applies to basically every sign he has in his disposal as they're that, Literally hand signs that manifest simple but effective magical capabilities.

Aard will knock Musashi back to the entrance hall of the underground arena as it is capable of pushing back creatures FAR surpassing even the statistically strongest fighters in Baki (Saskia's absolute minimum of 2,224 tons against Sukune's and Pickles 100+ tons).

Igni is capable of setting ablaze to creatures that are naturally resistant to fire and is capable of instantly melting armor, Yrden is capable of slowing everything down to a halt aside from Geralt in a good chunk of area.

And to mention the possibly the most broken sign in Geralt's Arsenal, Quen, literally "lols" to everything on tier 8. It is a protective sign that protects and deflects incoming attacks to a absurd amount but he usually only ever uses Quen on close-quarters when the opponent usually pulls some secret maneuvers.

Geralt also has quite the advantages of not allowing Musashi to this make this match into an instantkill.

 

[Twellas]

Geralt can flicker his finger and make Musashi kill himself.

It is an actual wincon that Witchers are fully capable of using on majority of battles they're in, but most don't (aside from lambert) due to in-universe explanation of it's rather addictive and rather unmoral usage as you're essentially taking full control of someones.

The "Flicker his finger" part also applies to basically every sign he has in his disposal as they're that, Literally hand signs that manifest simple but effective magical capabilities.

yeah sure, let's pretend like this is in any way comparable to 0.5, a technique Musashi has used multiple times on screen and was implied to have used daily during his life in the past.

I've read 4 Witcher books and I can't think of a single instance of Geralt using signs in-combat outside of the striga fight (maybe), let alone using them as an opening move, I don't really know about the games, but even then I'd bet good money Geralt barely uses signs canonially. It's far more in-character for Musashi to open with 0.5 than it is for Geralt to open with or, hell, even USE a sign.

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

yeah sure, let's pretend like this is in any way comparable to 0.5, a technique Musashi has used multiple times on screen and was implied to have used daily during his life in the past.

I've read 4 Witcher books and I can't think of a single instance of Geralt using signs in-combat outside of the striga fight (maybe), let alone using them as an opening move, I don't really know about the games, but even then I'd bet good money Geralt barely uses signs canonially. It's far more in-character for Musashi to open with 0.5 than it is for Geralt to open with or, hell, even USE a sign.

Actual respects on reading the magnificent work of art that are the witcher books but this is the video games Geralt who is A LOT stronger than the books Geralt.

To just put in a perspective how stronger Geralt is in the games: Book Geralt was certain he would die if he fought Regis while in the games, Geralt fought and slayed Dettlaff, a fully bloodlusted and angered Higher vampire in his true form who is physically superior to Regis.

They also abuse the shit out of signs in games and cutscenes as it is a common option to win dialogues with Axii and Geralt uses Aard a lot in games and cutscenes, in Witcher 2 they even have a dragon ball showdown with Aard. Quen and Igni also gets used a lot during the cutscenes and cinematic’s.

In the games if it is suitable for a witcher to use a set sort of signs for any particular monster then they’ll use it which is stated ingame and bestiaries.

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

Alright Grace concluded, this match up can be added.