Multi limb battle (Crimson Typhoon vs Hydra)

[LordNidhoggr]

Attack Potency: Varies from at least Wall level, likely Small Building level (As a CR 4[3] the weakest Hydras are superior to animals like the Rothé) up to at least Large Building level (The strongest regular Hydras, those being a 12 headed one are a CR 11[6] monster in 3.5e they should be on par with casters who can use Freezing Sphere), likely City Block level (Some comparable casters have managed such levels of power via the Control Water spell), possibly Multi-City Block level (Comparable to casters of Disintegrate, which can destroy a large temple) | Varies from Small Building level+ (The weakest Pyrohydras are a CR 6[3] which makes them comparable to casters capable of using Conjure Barrage) to Small City level+ (At their peak with 12 heads they're a CR 13[6] monster in 3.5e which makes them comparable to legendary dragons) | Varies from Small Building level+ to Small City level+ (Cryohydras are on par with Pyrohydras) | Building level (As a level 18[5] monster in 4e they're on par with casters who can cast Cone of Cold) | At least Small City level+ (As a level 25[7] monster in 4e they are on par with legendary dragons)

Based on the AP section, 12 headed hydras are exponentially more powerful than hydras with fewer heads.

Small Town Level is Low 7-C. This is a Low 7-B match. Baseline Small Town Level is 5.8 times lowe than baseline 7-C, Town Level. Baseline Town Level is ~17.5x time lowe than Baseline High 7-C, which is 10x lower than Low 7-B, & again, this is a Low 7-B match.

Also, there ARE no Small Town Level ratings for the Hydra, & if it were, it would be over 175 times, if not several hundreds of times weaker than the hydra involved in this match.

Ah...this was me getting the terms mixed up. I frequently mistake things like city and town level. I meant small city level and level+, not town. Totally my mistake. So, what exactly does that mean for a hydra with 3 heads? I'm not sure three heads would be enough to do anything like stop a giant plasma ball, and the thing's only going to lose heads if CT goes for the thundercloud...something less likely than almost any other option due to the Hydra only coming up a bit above ankle height.

How do we know it isn't from shoulder to tail?
The scan does not say it is measured head to tail, & unlike, say, a giraffe, this is a measure of length, rather than height; With the hydra's heads being upright, it feels a little odd to include them in a body length measurement rather than height measurement.

While I can't say for sure, length is generally done head-to-tail even if those heads are held up mostly vertically, and the Hydra is clearly a mostly-horizontal creature. Godzilla is mostly vertical+tail, but his length is always head-to-tail. Since neither of us knows for 100% certainty, I don't know how we should address it or if a few feet really even makes much of a difference.

What do you mean several? I've only seen the CT fire a few at a time, & considering the CT is overpowered by at least 2 & a half times, stopping multiple plasma blasts, especially if they come 1 at a time, seems quite doable.

What I mean by several is this. Multiple shots with maybe a second or two between them. Jaeger pilots are trained to soften up a kaiju with melee and then hit with ranged weapons to finish it off if needed. Given how small the Hydra is, they would either immediately go for a powerful blow like a kick (potential BFR) or just shoot it until it dies.

I do feel like we're at somewhat of an impasse.

I hope you can forgive me if I hold my vote on the Hydra for the time being, sorry.
I do very much appreciate your debating here & with me, though, truly & sincerely.

Vote for whoever you think would win. I have enjoyed the debate!

 

[Imaginym]

Ah...this was me getting the terms mixed up. I frequently mistake things like city and town level. I meant small city level and level+, not town.

Forgive me, but.... "Small City Level and Level+"?

Totally my mistake. So, what exactly does that mean for a hydra with 3 heads?

Does it have 3 heads? Based on the tier, this is a Hydra with a CR high enough to have more than 3.
IDK about other editions or whichever is being used, but in 3.5, Hydras have at least 5 heads, which is only CR 4, & thus, much lower tiered. https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm

I'm not sure three heads would be enough to do anything like stop a giant plasma ball

Well, it's more than 3 heads, & they have several times greater AP than the CT, so why shouldn't they be able to?

, and the thing's only going to lose heads if CT goes for the thundercloud...something less likely than almost any other option due to the Hydra only coming up a bit above ankle height.

Yes, it is a bit unlikely.... If not for being their signature move, plus they might try it if they think they have an easy win, no?
& you say "only lose heads", but we both know a hydra not only regrows heads at a 2 heads per 1 lost rate, seconds after it loses them but it can & does seal off stumps to prevent bleeding & such, which may help prevent cauterization.

While I can't say for sure, length is generally done head-to-tail even if those heads are held up mostly vertically, and the Hydra is clearly a mostly-horizontal creature. Godzilla is mostly vertical+tail, but his length is always head-to-tail. Since neither of us knows for 100% certainty, I don't know how we should address it or if a few feet really even makes much of a difference.

20 feet vs 32 feet is not what I'd call a small difference; It's more than 1 & a half times the size.

What I mean by several is this. Multiple shots with maybe a second or two between them. Jaeger pilots are trained to soften up a kaiju with melee and then hit with ranged weapons to finish it off if needed. Given how small the Hydra is, they would either immediately go for a powerful blow like a kick (potential BFR) or just shoot it until it dies.

In my opinion, this has a problem of the hydra breath-attacking to block the shots while approaching; If the CT tries to back away & fire, what about the environment such as the ocean?
I also don't know if there's cliffs.

Vote for whoever you think would win. I have enjoyed the debate!

Fair. Holding my vote on the Hydra for now.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Forgive me, but.... "Small City Level and Level+"?

Small City Level and Small City Level+, wherever I said small town level I meant small city, likewise with the + at the end.

Does it have 3 heads? Based on the tier, this is a Hydra with a CR high enough to have more than 3.
IDK about other editions or whichever is being used, but in 3.5, Hydras have at least 5 heads, which is only CR 4, & thus, much lower tiered. https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm

3 Heads : 0

Sure seems like 3. Hasn't been stated otherwise by anyone other than you, as far as I can tell.

Yes, it is a bit unlikely.... If not for being their signature move, plus they might try it if they think they have an easy win, no?
& you say "only lose heads", but we both know a hydra not only regrows heads at a 2 heads per 1 lost rate, seconds after it loses them but it can & does seal off stumps to prevent bleeding & such, which may help prevent cauterization.

Logic>signature move. The Hydra, at its biggest, is barely more than ankle height. I'm not saying they wouldn't ever use it, just that its massive inconvenience would probably cause them to try other stuff first.

20 feet vs 32 feet is not what I'd call a small difference; It's more than 1 & a half times the size.

It's not about percentages it's about scale. A 30 foot Hydra and a 20 foot Hydra are minuscule differences to a 250 ft robot. It would make no difference to how CT would attack it, and it would only keep the body slightly further back, but still far less than the length of one of CT's feet, from the heads.

In my opinion, this has a problem of the hydra breath-attacking to block the shots while approaching; If the CT tries to back away & fire, what about the environment such as the ocean?
I also don't know if there's cliffs.

If there are cliffs they'd be obvious and CT would avoid them (they have complex HUDs to display environmental detail, radar, etc. I don't see how the ocean matters unless CT is directly in the water and within the 60ft or whatever the range of the cone of cold is. I also don't see much of a difference in whether or not CT is moving when firing the shots.

 

[Imaginym]

Sure seems like 3. Hasn't been stated otherwise by anyone other than you, as far as I can tell.

You've mentioned 3 heads in at least 1 of your posts, & the OP states 3 heads.
But the profile....

Hydra (Dungeons and Dragons)

Hydras are monstrosities with crocodile-like bodies and serpentine heads, ranging in number from five to twelve. Each hydra is descended from the primordial hydras, created when the dragon goddess Tiamat slew a fellow dragon deity, spreading her blood across the multiverse, each blood drop...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Hydras are monstrosities with crocodile-like bodies and serpentine heads, ranging in number from five to twelve. "

The hydra won't have 3 heads.

 

[Peppersalt43]

You've mentioned 3 heads in at least 1 of your posts, & the OP states 3 heads.
But the profile....

Hydra (Dungeons and Dragons)

Hydras are monstrosities with crocodile-like bodies and serpentine heads, ranging in number from five to twelve. Each hydra is descended from the primordial hydras, created when the dragon goddess Tiamat slew a fellow dragon deity, spreading her blood across the multiverse, each blood drop...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Hydras are monstrosities with crocodile-like bodies and serpentine heads, ranging in number from five to twelve. "

The hydra won't have 3 heads.

It's just a nickname I gave since most Hydras in fiction have 3 heads at start. If this one has 5, so be it. I won't try to change it

 

[Imaginym]

It's just a nickname I gave since most Hydras in fiction have 3 heads at start. If this one has 5, so be it. I won't try to change it

Fair, but....
Varies from Small Building level+ (The weakest Pyrohydras are a CR 6[3] which makes them comparable to casters capable of using Conjure Barrage) to Small City level+ (At their peak with 12 heads they're a CR 13[6] monster in 3.5e which makes them comparable to legendary dragons) | Varies from Small Building level+ to Small City level+ (Cryohydras are on par with Pyrohydras)

If it's a Small City Level/Low 7-B Cryo or Pyrohydra, then it has 12 heads, apparently.

 

[Peppersalt43]

If it's a Small City Level/Low 7-B Cryo or Pyrohydra, then it has 12 heads, apparently.

Eh, 3*4=12 anyway

This is a joke, I'm fine with this revelation

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump, lets continue the discussion

 

[Peppersalt43]

@LordNidhoggr, are you planning on responding?

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump...

 

[LordNidhoggr]

@LordNidhoggr, are you planning on responding?

To...what? None of my arguments have changed.

 

[Peppersalt43]

To...what? None of my arguments have changed.

It has been confirmed now that the hydra has 12 heads

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Yeah, so the Hydra could probably block most if not all of the plasma fire with its ice breath. But it doesn't change the strength, reach, and range advantages Crimson Typhoon has. I just don't think the Hydra can cause crippling damage to CT before being punted into the literal stratosphere. Consider a Gen III Jaeger can throw a kaiju half a kilometer, and it weighs thousands of tons, a 20-odd ton Hydra is barely a toy.

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah, so the Hydra could probably block most if not all of the plasma fire with its ice breath. But it doesn't change the strength, reach, and range advantages Crimson Typhoon has. I just don't think the Hydra can cause crippling damage to CT before being punted into the literal stratosphere. Consider a Gen III Jaeger can throw a kaiju half a kilometer, and it weighs thousands of tons, a 20-odd ton Hydra is barely a toy.

It doesn't make a big difference, but a Hydra is 20 feet long, by description, but as a 12-headed hydra, its Huge size category means it's 32 feet (Presumably in height.) as well.
You may have confused its 20 feet length with its weight, which is....
4,000 lbs, lol.
Which, in metric, is 1,814.36948 kilograms. Not even 2 tonnes.
There are cars, rhinos & hippos heavier than that, among other animals, so yes, the hydra could be launched quite far by the CT, lol.

& people say Pokemon are light for their sizes.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

It doesn't make a big difference, but a Hydra is 20 feet long, by description, but as a 12-headed hydra, its Huge size category means it's 32 feet (Presumably in height.) as well.
You may have confused its 20 feet length with its weight, which is....
4,000 lbs, lol.
Which, in metric, is 1,814.36948 kilograms. Not even 2 tonnes.
There are cars, rhinos & hippos heavier than that, among other animals, so yes, the hydra could be launched quite far by the CT, lol.

& people say Pokemon are light for their sizes.

The page on the wiki says 11 to 16 tons. That's where I got the 20-ish ton range for it.

 

[Imaginym]

The page on the wiki says 11 to 16 tons. That's where I got the 20-ish ton range for it.

Hmmm. My guess would be it has to do with the Huge Size's provided measurements? https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreaturesInCombat
....Although, thinking on it, 4,000 lbs is exactly 2 tons in SHORT/US TONS, & D&D does use lbs, so those are probably short/US tons.
16 short tons is about 14.5149558 tonnes?

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Hmmm. My guess would be it has to do with the Huge Size's provided measurements? https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreaturesInCombat
....Although, thinking on it, 4,000 lbs is exactly 2 tons in SHORT/US TONS, & D&D does use lbs, so those are probably short/US tons.
16 short tons is about 14.5149558 tonnes?

Probably correct. I don't know the process they used to arrive at those stats. Either way it weighs so little compared to even one of CT's limbs that any blow or throw would almost certainly count as BFR, unless the battlefield covers a truly massive area.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump, let's continue the discussion

 

[LordNidhoggr]

I think for the conversation to be productive we need more people. Imaginym and I have put in some good work, but we're to the point that fresh perspective is needed for things to move forward.

 

[Peppersalt43]

I think for the conversation to be productive we need more people. Imaginym and I have put in some good work, but we're to the point that fresh perspective is needed for things to move forward.

Alright so to summarize

Hydra's advantages

• 12 heads to perform multiple freezing attacks if it needs to break free
• Regen if it is merely wounded
• AP advantage
• Easier to manuever due to smaller size

Crimson Typhoon's advantages

• A good kick can send the hydra to space
• LS advantage
• A very powerful short range blast to obliterate the hydra should it be captured
• Easier to hit attacks due to larger size

Honestly I think incon would be a better choice if both of you are getting tired of this. They seem to have an equal amount of wincons so I guess it can go both ways

 

[Imaginym]

Alright so to summarize

Hydra's advantages

• 12 heads to perform multiple freezing attacks if it needs to break free

AFAIK, the heads also use biting attacks. Dunno if those are relevant when it "needs to break free", but may be worth mentioning.

• Regen if it is merely wounded

AFAIK, the regen is listed for it growing new heads to replace old ones.

• A very powerful short range blast to obliterate the hydra should it be captured

The Plasma Blast is higher AP than the CT itself?

 

[Peppersalt43]

The Plasma Blast is higher AP than the CT itself?

No but because it's so big, it would affect the hydra's entire body. Essentially getting by it too many times, especially while being restrained should have the same effect as being blown up

AFAIK, the heads also use biting attacks. Dunno if those are relevant when it "needs to break free", but may be worth mentioning.

Those heads are where the ice blasts are coming from, right?

 

[Imaginym]

Those heads are where the ice blasts are coming from, right?

They are, but can bite, or use ice blasts.

 

[Peppersalt43]

They are, but can bite, or use ice blasts.

So yeah, they can damage anything restraining them at quicker pace

So, voting yet?

 

[Imaginym]

So yeah, they can damage anything restraining them at quicker pace

So, voting yet?

I mean, I had said earlier....

Fair. Holding my vote on the Hydra for now.

Though AtM, I've mostly been waiting for other debaters to show up & weigh in.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Though AtM, I've mostly been waiting for other debaters to show up & weigh in.

I can't really think of many other Pacific Rim supporters right now and I'm kinda tired with this thread so I'll count your vote

 

[Imaginym]

I can't really think of many other Pacific Rim supporters right now and I'm kinda tired with this thread so I'll count your vote

Okay.
& I assume you've contacted any prospective D&D supporters as well?

 

[Peppersalt43]

& I assume you've contacted any prospective D&D supporters as well?

I mean, currently everything we've heard about the hydra is pointing to its victory. I don't think there's much more needed from its side

Ironically this is when the Opponent section of the knowledgeable member list comes in handy if we want new arguments and even then, I just want this thread concluded

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump, the voting can commence

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Ailamiona]

Voting Cryo Hydra FRA

 

[Peppersalt43]

Counted and thank you

 

[Mariogoods]

I vote to Hydra FRA

 

[Peppersalt43]

Counted and thank you

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump