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More misc worm changes

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Wokistan

Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
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Butcher 14

Inflicts wounds that fester. Power from Butcher Four. Less effect than Four had. Far shorter duration.
Butcher didn't react as bugs bit and stung, and capsaicin-laden bugs found her eyes and nose. Her skin was too tough, and she didn't feel pain, thanks to Butcher twelve's powers.
  • Should have SuperHuman lifting strength, due to these:
Images flickered through Accord's mind. Ways to obliterate both costume and wearer. More difficult than it seemed, given just who she was.
As if to punctuate Accord's line of thinking, she effortlessly lifted a gatling gun and set it down on the end of the table. The sheer mass of the weapon was imposing enough that Accord momentarily wondered if the other end of the long wooden table would lift off the ground.''

Butcher didn't react as bugs bit and stung, and capsaicin-laden bugs found her eyes and nose. Her skin was too tough, and she didn't feel pain, thanks to Butcher twelve's powers. She was composed as she lifted a gun that would normally have been mounted on the back of a truck. Without putting it down, she held it with one hand and donned her mask.
No, she was drawing a configuration of metal rods and panels from her back. Her gun abandoned in the course of the fighting, she was unfolding the device into a different weapon.
A compound bow.

I already knew which power she was using next. Imp had sabotaged the gun, jamming the ammo feed, but she hadn't been able to get at the bow. It was massive when fully unfolded, nearly six feet long, not counting the extra length as part of the curve. Large enough that it required superhuman strength to draw.''

  • Range should be up to Hundreds of Meters, because this is how far a minigun shoots and there's also the matter of her sniping with her bow from across rooftops.
She'd heal, was probably healing the brain damage Codex had inflicted. Butcher was tough enough that the dogs probably wouldn't do enough damage before she regained her senses.
She does kill herself via impalement, but given that it was a suicide I'm thinking she would be able to just not use her power to save herself.

Cherish

  • I really don't think she should have Butcher 15 as a key. Sure she does technically have all those powers, and it would be really silly coupled with her passive suicide aura, but she's still barely alive trapped in her own personal hell at the bottom of Brockton Bay due to the work of Bonesaw and Mannequin (Worm). I really don't know how applicable this key even is, like do we assume Cherish's body isn't ******, or is she just a pile of organs with all these powers? She never really got to use these powers, so yeah. This one can be disputed though.
Behemoth

  • Behemoth should scale to 6-B or High 6-B or 6-A or whatever the hell Phir Se's time nuke comes out to be, because Behemoth just manipulating its energy and killing everybody was considered a real threat so he needed to be distracted.
"You want to hit Behemoth with this… time bomb," I said. "But… I think that's what he wants. He's holding back. My thinker friend, she said so. He's taking more hits than he should, and I'm just now realizing he might be doing it because he wants to be ready for when you hit him with this. He'll push it out into the ground, or into the air."
"Yes. This is likely," Phir Sē said. "This is what he may want. I hoped for the Second or Third. This will have to do."

"They've tried this stuff before," I said. "Nukes, gigantic railguns, tricks with teleportation and portals. It doesn't work. You won't do anything except get a lot of people killed as collateral damage."

"We time this. Strategic," Phir Sēsaid, calm, as if he were talking to a panicked animal. "Come. Step in."

Right, I thought. Approach the temporal bomb.''

  • As for the power of the bomb itself, it needs a calc but here's the quote:
"I tell you because you are ruthless, Weaver. Do not stop me," he said. "I die, focus waver, time bomb explode. Aimless, no direction."
"Indiscriminate," I supplied a better word.

"Indiscriminate," Phir Sē echoed me. "India gone. You die, even down here."

I raised my head, staring up at the two golden discs and the current that seemed to run between them. I would have thought it would be brighter.

"Hero fall. We wait," he said. "When fight cannot be won, I strike."
  • To further support it, Behemoth was described as almost hurting Alexandria (Worm), the invincible lady who can tank Scion's power. Now given that he only almost caused her pain Behemoth doesn't go to High 6-A, this is more to support his energy stuff being tier 6:
The creature roared, and as invulnerable as she was, it almost hurt. A whirlwind blast of sand ripped past them. Kaveh stumbled back, collapsed, blood pouring from his ears, one of his eyeballs obliterated.
The fight hadn't even started, and they'd lost someone.''

  • DMUA also calced something for tier 7 physicals for Behemoth but he can add that
Eidolo

  • His forcefields shouldn't scale to Phir Se so much as they are just a physics breaking anomaly similar to The Siberia. Here's the quote:
Eidolon's power held. He'd had the situation explained, had been given time to let his power build up to full strength, and his passenger had supplied something with a durability on par with Clockblocker's ability. Inviolable.
  • As for Clockbloker's power:
Brian extended two fingers and tapped the second, "Number two. Clockblocker. Let it be known, I ******* hate people who mess with time."
"He stops time, if I remember right?" I inquired, as much to stay in the conversation as to get the clarification.

"More specific than that," Brian said, "He can stop time for whatever he touches. The person or object he touches is basically put on 'pause' for anywhere from thirty seconds to ten minutes. Only good thing is that he doesn't control or know how long it's going to last. But if he gets his hands on you, you're out of action. He'll either stand next to you and wait until you start moving, then touch you again, or he'll just tie you up in chains and handcuffs so that when his power wears off, you're already in custody."

"Long story short, he touches you, you're boned," Alec said.

"The upside is that whoever he touches is also untouchable. Can't be hurt, can't be moved. Period. He uses that defensively, and he can do stuff like throw paper or cloth in the air and freeze it in time, making an unbreakable shield. You don't want to run into something that's frozen. A car that drove into the side of a piece of paper that Clockblocker had touched would be cut in two before it budged the paper."''

I recognized the one in the lead, distorted as it was.
Clockblocker's spirit touched Scion, and the golden man froze.''

Clockblocker fired his threads from his gauntlet. They surrounded the cube-carrier, and he froze them.
Unstoppable force against an immovable object.

Which won?

The Siberian made contact with the thread and flickered out of existence, and the thread went limp. The cube fell with a crash.''

I propose making Eidolon's forcefields Unknow and explaining that similar to Clockblocker's power, they didn't really participate in the idea of force so don't have regular durability.
 
Approved. This is pretty well put-together.

Cherish's Butcher 15 key always struck me as weird, especially since it's a tier about Butcher 14 despite the two being practcially the same barring Cherish's emotional powers.

I think we see stuff from Cherish in Ward, but haven't read far enough to confirm that.
 
Tier 6 Behemoth is more just his energy manip's best showing, and Behemoth already doesn't scale to anyone as is because he one shots everyone except Alexandria (Already has High 6-A dura), Scion (Is Scion), and Eidolon's forcefield (Elaborated here) if he gets a good hit on them.
 
Yeah I'm fine with all of this.
 
All looks good to me.

Cherish having another key is definitely questionable; even if she likely possesses the abilities, she's still immobile.
 
This should be good

As soon as I get a forking depth for Behemoth fragging the horizon I'll do both calcs
 
User blog:DMUA/Worm: Behemoth the absolute unit

Alright, Low 7-B, very high end High 6-B+

Alexandria should scale for being physically comparable to Behemoth and being able to knock him around when he isn't diverting her energy. If he was millions of times stronger, he wouldn't have even flinched from the attack

The other Endbringers should scale to some degree for fighting Alexandria, Leviathan can pin her down into water in fights and Smiurgh, while physically weak, still has means to deflect her attacks

You could possibly argue for the other members of the Triumvirate scaling, along with Echidna's dura, as they were able to withstand Alexandria hitting them with a telephone pole, and Legend was tearing through them, but that's a bit iffier
 
I mean, Endbringer durability is weird. I'm uncertain about it scaling.
 
I also don't think tier 7 behemoth should scale out to absolutely everyone. At most it'd go to Alexandria and Lung's highest point ever (he was doing more vs Leviathan than Alexandria) but I have an issue with that as well. Respond in more detail after I do a thing for college applications
 
Durability is the ability to withstand blows without being damaged, or only being minorly damaged

If you can't hurt someone, you could potentially still stagger or knock them around if you hit them with enough force to make their weight move

Even if Alexandria can't actually hurt him, she shouldn't be several hundred thousands of times weaker while still being able to knock him on his rear end

As per Echidna, they generally aren't as durable as other Endbringers and the Triumvirate can damage them

I did mention earlier on discord that Legend should be a glass cannon also, since he got oneshot by Leviathan and doesn't really have any brute powers per say. At best he should get "Likely Small City level" for surviving hits, though he ultimately got incapacitated
 
If you make it, she can

Alot of pages could use work, through either improvement or actual creation
 
That said, the Parahumans profiles are some of the best around thanks to Dargoo's recent work in adding references to them.

Bohu's should be relatively simple to make though, I'll try and create one for her this week.
 
As for the Behemoth scaling:

The most I can really see is Alexandria and full power Lung scaling to Behemoth. Lung's been shown at Brute 9+ and doesn't actually have an upper limit (or at least, due to passengers the upper limit is something absurdly high that won't really matter) and he did better against Leviathan than Alexandria did, but it's far too outlierish for anyone else and Behemoth basically one shots everyone who's not Scion, Alexandria, or Eidolon's powers.

However, I don't think Alexandria needs to be tier 7 to shove Behemoth. Behemoth doesn't suddenly weigh way more just because it's super strong, and the Endbringers don't try very hard in the first place. Even at her current tiering, her speed combined with her LS should be more than enough to nudge something of Behemoth's stature. It's not like Behemoth threw a punch at her and she blocked it with a punch of her own. She's usually the physically strongest parahuman (Lung is conditional and Scion isn't a human), but that doesn't mean her strength is on par with that of Behemoth.

Similarly, Alexandria probably doesn't weigh that much, being a fit woman. Lifting is hard without leverage and iirc the Leviathan thing she sorta got blindsided. There's also how she actually needs to breathe, and how neither one can really hurt the other in a direct fight.
 
I believe Wokistan is right here regarding the scaling.
 
The general idea is they're considered comparable, and it seems weird for them to be millions of times weaker when Taylor goes so far as to say only they could deal out a hit like that when Behemoth gets grounded.

She has flight, so if Leviathan was really below her weight class like that, she can easily make up for a lack of leverage

Side note, but Lung actually had an upper limit alluded to in his interlude. If he can't sustain his adrenaline, he'll start rapidly losing his power entirely. I think he even started winding down before Leviathan got out of the battlefield
 
The only direct comparisons I can think of are how both are the strongest of their class, and how both are indestructible.

There's also the matter of her being blindsided and how it's not like leviathan actually kept her down. This also would make scaling Alexandria to behemoth sketchier, since Leviathan has no tier 7 physical feats.

That was because he didn't think Leviathan was actually killable so his passenger gave up. Endbringers don't trigger a lot of parahuman specific things, and Leviathan had killed the other 10 million people besides ALexandria as is. The actual power is more than he ever gets shown to be, but he may not be able to access all of it.
 
It would be really weird to compare their powersets and then actually have Behemoth be immensely superior to them

His other really big feat is moving in one direction, so not sure that means too much, and Alexandria actually doesn't immediately get up. She does seem to get caught off guard, but they're only detailed to be rising out of the water after Dragon goes full force into them

Even so, it shows he'll eventually tap out, which is a limitation
 
But they're compared with regards to their categories, and given that endbringers are already >>> humans, that works. There's also something else here. They aren't really portrayed as comparable in strength. Yeah neither can really harm the other, but while behemoth can just sorta swat alexandria away without too much effort, she needed to full speed ram behemoth just to make him stumble a bit.

There's also the matter that tier 7 isn't very consistent for the others. Let's go over the High 8-Cs. There's Lung, Alexandria (Worm), Legend, Eidolo, Glaistig Uaine, Ballistic, Behemoth (Worm), Leviathan (Worm), The Simurgh, Khonsu, and Echidna (Worm) Now, of these:

  • Behemoth is fine.
  • Alexandria and Lung would be the only ones i'd be willing to possibly scale, but am still against. Alexandria (and in turn lung) has been the main point of contention as is though.
  • Legend has nothing supportive of this tier other than theoretical scaling, but is said all the time to be able to easily take down buildings and he carved through city blocks with sustained fire.
  • Eidolon and Glaistig Uaine are highly variable due to the nature of their powers. They're here off scaling, and have the potential to go way higher anyways. However, Eidolon also ***** up buildings with his more regular powers, and scaling base to tier 7 would be off 1 guy as opposed to everyone else and their tier 8 supports.
  • I calced ballistic staggering leviathan at 8-C, and he was noted to be wrecking buildings as opposed to just all of dolltown with his power. Keep in mind, ballistic's power is considered really strong and he has to hold back to not just start killing people.
  • Leviathan explicitly uses floods and tsunamis for mass destruction. It again has wrecked buildings physically and it's charge that killed like 15 capes is the High 8-C rating, but nothing vaguely tier 7 off that. Sinkining Newfoundland and Japan aren't physical feats.
  • Simurgh throws around buildings all the time. She never threw a city, nor did she physically oppose Alexandria anyways.
  • I don't actually know Khonsu in detail. Oops. Given that it isn't the physical guy I seriously douby he supports tier 7 though.
  • If echidna could physically destroy Brockton bay in few strikes like that, I think she probably just would have. She gets chunks vaporized off by legend's building busting lasers, gets badly injured by Eidolon's gravity attacks that can even be sure by Trickster (though trickster probably isn't taking a direct hit here), and is about this big so van probably get a result here with when she charges off KE.
It's clear that theres far more support of tier 8 for this caliber of character, not helped by Behemoth being explicitly the strongest non Entity physically. It makes more sense to just not scale him out, and even in present Alexandria and Lung don't scale to Behemoth's tier 7 high end. At most I would be willing to accept "possibly Behemoth tier" for thr two, but nobody else and I would still rather not.

Well yeah none of thr powers are truly unlimited, even gray boy said he's probably run out in billions of years.
 
Basically all of said Tier 8 feats are casual, and the lack of feats seems like pretty standard PIS

Easily tearing through buildings, moving in one in one direction for a bit and throwing around buildings are all done easily, and Ballistic just instantly nuking the joint wouldn't leave any room for stuff to actually happen

Echidna wasn't even focused on mass destruction. Most of the stuff she wrecks is either by accident, or in an attempt to chase her goal of taking revenge on the undersiders

Then again, this might also just be inconsistent all around, but I'm not sure. They're treated as kinda rival characters, they know how to fight eachother and clash constantly, trading hits and shrugging eachother off, but the entire Triumvirate would also thereby scale in one way or another

Messy
 
I don't think it's PIS when it's far and away the majority portrayal. That's justrhe plot at that point. Its not like there are several tier 7 feats to scale around, there are two. One is Sundancer, who either holds back or just vaporizes people. The other is by a character already established to be far stronger than everyone save some special cases that are tier 6, who one shots everybody except those with weird durability, and until scion shows up has never lost a fight. One feat on a character who is above the curve outweighing the far more consistent tier 8 for everyone else really does not make sense.

"Ballistic can't nuke dolltown because that would be bad for the plot" is not a good argument. Yeah, it would be soeta weird if he could do that. As such, he can't. This means he is not tier 7. The plot is where these feats and acalings we analyze come from, it is perfectly valid to say something would not work out within the context of the verse as a reason why it would not make sense to scale/be an outlier. This isn't like comics where there's like dozens of tier 4 stuff but they struggle to lift a building, there is literally one feat that is actually applicable and even then its preformed by a guy who never interacts with ballistic.

Echidna gets very destructive when Noelle isnt in control. On i think her third blackout, she somehow takes down Eidolon and describes the devastation she awakens to.

The endbringers don't fight amongst themselves though? Hell we even get co op endbringers later on.

Also, another thing. Each of the main 3 has their specialty. Leviathan can cause the most overall destruction the fastest via sinking islands with his water stuff, the simurgh has precog that apparently beats PtV, mindhax, sleeper agents, etc, well Behemoth's specialty is just power. Energy manip far outstrips what anyone else has done, and his physical strength does too, therefore it makes more sense to treat that as what's special about behemoth and not just avetage endbringer. In fact, Alexandria surmises that his energy manip plays a part in what he did physically, when she notes that he hit her way too hard evem with his size in her interlude to be reasonable. Its part of what triggers her ephipahny as to what his power is. Something extraordinary about a dude in a class should not scale to all members of that class just because.
 
Wokistan said:
The endbringers don't fight amongst themselves though? Hell we even get co op endbringers later on.
I was referring to Alexandria and Behemoth but

Yeah I don't really have a response to this
 
I'm mostly inclined to agree with Wok here. Scaling Tier 7 shouldn't really apply to anyone but an extremely select few.
 
I'll make the changes once DMUA's calc is evaluated.
 
I'm curious, would it be possible for Parian to get a "Possibly higher" added to her tier?

Wildbow apparently said that she has some sort of "True Power" that would allow her to fight Behemoth . . .
 
Wildbow WOG is a bit wack

At the very least she should be 9-B to High 8-C, since higher end creations can square off with Leviathan
 
Grimm's Fortitude said:
Wildbow apparently said that she has some sort of "True Power" that would allow her to fight Behemoth . . .
Given she never uses the full extent of her powers in-canon I don't see why it would apply to any version of her in canon.
 
I'll see about applying this thread later today.
 
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