More DMC Low Tiers Re-Scaling

[Mister6ame6]

Vergil​

Attack Potency: At least Wall level (Physically is comparable to most lesser demons, which can tear humans apart and easily wreck cars with a single strike and they can also easily withstand every modern weapon created in the Human World. Equal to his younger brother when they are kids before awakening his demonic powers), at least Building level+ via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (After being cruelly stabbed by the Sins when they are sended by Mundus to kill him and his family, Vergil was show to have awakened his sleeping demonic powers to avoid dying, moreover, Vergil casually killed countless Sins that was send to his house that day, even before the fire of his house was extinguished and continued to kill every demon sended by Mundus to kill him while masterfully handling Yamato in the process. Vastly superior to Blitz, which is one of the elite demons sired by Mundus and is one of his strongest minions among his army. Vastly superior to Lady, which can easily cut Bianco Angelo's in half, who are completely unfazed by multiple barrages of Kalina Ann rockets and are capable to fight Assaults and even one shot then, in a single strike, turning them to blood mist, which is one of the elite demons sired by Mundus and is superior then others high ranking demons like Blade and Frost, but is inferior to Blitz in the Mundus's army) | At least City level (Was show to be capable of breaking free of a dangerous demonic illusion that can drive people insane and casually hurted the demon very badly with only a single slash from Yamato, and the Sin was being used by Sparda as one of the seals of the Temen-ni-gru tower, superior to DMC3 Manga Dante and comparable to DMC3 Dante before he awakened his demonic powers, who is capable to easily defeat demons that are comparable or stronger than the Sins, like the powerful sand-based demon Hell Vanguard, which is a demon feared in the Demon World, and guardians sealed in the Temen-ni-gru tower like Cerberus and Agni&Rudra, who should be comparable or stronger then demons like Nefasturris, who embodies a entire city of Dumary Island and casually covered the sky in a storm in his appearance, or Echidna that can easily change the weather of a wide forest full of large vegetation, mountains and cliffs and is the master of the Demon World's forest)

Speed: At least Supersonic (Comparable to his younger brother when they are kids, can dodge the attacks of the Sins), at least Massively Hypersonic+ via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Faster then demons like Puya, who can move at lightning speed, much faster then Lady, who can react and shoot down Trish's lighting charged bullets out of air after they have already been shoot, much faster then Blitz) | At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Faster then before, superior to DMC3 Manga Dante and comparable to DMC3 Dante before he awakened his demonic powers)

Lifting Strength: At least Athletic Human (Can hold his father swords with no problems, should not be physically inferior to V, who can without problems push Elder Geryon Knight away and was also capable to hold the Devil Sword Sparda and carry away until where Dante is in coma), at least Class K via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Comparable to Volume 1 Dante, who on his earlier days as a mercenary, was capable of casually ripping out spines, which require at least this amount of force. Comparable to Nero, who can casually stop Berial's sword with Red Queen and even states that his attack is too weak and too slow for him, and Nero can also lift and swing around demons such as Berial and Bael with little difficulty) | At least Class K (Much Stronger then before)

Durability: At least Wall level (Physically is comparable to most lesser demons, which can easily withstand every modern weapon created in the Human World. Equal to his younger brother when they are kids before awakening his demonic powers), at least Building level+ via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (should be capable to withstand his own attacks) | At least City level (Superior then DMC3 Manga and DMC3 Dante before he awakened his demonic powers, should be capable to withstand his own attacks)

Dante​

Attack Potency: At least Wall level (Physically is comparable to most lesser demons, which can tear humans apart and easily wreck cars with a single strike and they can also easily withstand every modern weapon created in the Human World. Equal to his older brother when they are kids before he awakened his demonic powers), at least Building level+ via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Dante states that he awakens his demonic powers when he is in the brink of death, should be comparable to his brother Vergil when he awakens his demonic powers and started to casually kill countless Sins that was send to his house that day, even before the fire of his house was extinguished and continued to kill every demon sended by Mundus to kill him while masterfully handling Yamato in the process. Vastly superior to Blitz, which is one of the elite demons sired by Mundus and is one of his strongest minions among his army. Vastly superior to Lady, which can easily cut Bianco Angelo's in half, who are completely unfazed by multiple barrages of Kalina Ann rockets and are capable to fight Assaults and even one shot then, in a single strike, turning them to blood mist, which is one of the elite demons sired by Mundus and is superior then others high ranking demons like Blade and Frost, but is inferior to Blitz in the Mundus's army) | At least Building level+ (Comparable or stronger than his older brother when he awakened his demonic powers when he was a kid and his younger self when he transform in his Demon Form. Vastly superior to Black Knights which were created by Mundus to be one of his strongest servants among his fodder minions, made with data gathered after carefully studying how Dante, Vergil and Sparda fight, far higher after taking his original name back (Massively superior to his "Tony" persona. Is equal to Gilver when he is without his armor, and, eventually grew strong enough to match him with his armor and while he was being amped by Nexus) | At least Building level+, likely far higher in Base Form (Much stronger then before), At least City level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (When Alice was sucking his life force, Dante was show to react by instinctively transforming to avoid dying and also growing more stronger in the process, however, when he fought against a Sin that was being used by Sparda as one of the seals of the Temen-ni-gru tower, Dante was unable to defend himself and needed to instinctively semi-transform to avoid dying when he was having his blood being striped away by him | At least City level in Base Form (Even before unlocking his inner potential thanks to Rebellion, Dante grown strong enough to be able to easily defeat demons that are comparable or stronger than the Sins, like the powerful sand-based demon Hell Vanguard, which is a demon feared in the Demon World, and guardians sealed in the Temen-ni-gru tower like Cerberus and Agni&Rudra, who should be comparable or stronger then demons like Nefasturris, who embodies a entire city of Dumary Island and casually covered the sky in a storm in his appearance, or Echidna that can easily change the weather of a wide forest full of large vegetation, mountains and cliffs and is the master of the Demon World's forest)

Speed: At least Supersonic (Comparable to his older brother when they are kids, can dodge the attacks of the Sins), at least Massively Hypersonic+ via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Dante states that he awakens his demonic powers when he is in the brink of death, should be comparable to his brother Vergil when he awakens his demonic powers, faster then demons like Puya, who can move at lightning speed, much faster then Lady, who can react and shoot down Trish's lighting charged bullets out of air after they have already been shoot, much faster then Blitz) | Massively Hypersonic+ (Comparable or faster than his older brother when he awakened his demonic powers when he was a kid and his younger self when he transform in his Demon Form. Can perceive and counter a lot of Gilver's moves, which can't be perceived by normal humans), higher after taking his original name back (Should be faster than before. Is equal to Gilver in first round, in second round eventually grew fast enough to match him while he was being amped by Nexus) | At least Massively Hypersonic+ in Base Form, likely far faster (Much faster then before), far faster via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Can casually blitz a Sin when he is at least semi-transformed) | At least Massively Hypersonic+ in Base Form (Much faster than before, can casually blitz demons on the same level as the Sins that he required to at least semi-transform to be able to blitz one year ago, when he fought against one of then)

Lifting Strength: At least Athletic Human (Can hold his father swords with no problems, should not be physically inferior to V, who can without problems push Elder Geryon Knight away and was also capable to hold the Devil Sword Sparda and carry away until where Dante is in coma), at least Class K via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Comparable to his Volume 1 Dante self, who on his earlier days as a mercenary, was capable of casually ripping out spines, which require at least this amount of force. Comparable to Nero, who can casually stop Berial's sword with Red Queen and even states that his attack is too weak and too slow for him, and Nero can also lift and swing around demons such as Berial and Bael with little difficulty) | At least Class K (Much Stronger then before. Comparable or stronger than his older brother when he awakened his demonic powers when he was a kid and his younger self when he transform in his Demon Form), higher after taking his original name back (Much Stronger then before) | At least Class K, likely far higher in Base Form (Much stronger than before), At least Class K, likely far higher via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Massively more stronger than his base form) | At least Class K (Much stronger than before on his base form, comparable to his previous self that fought against one of the Sins one year previous to DMC3 events)

Durability: At least Wall level (Physically is comparable to most lesser demons, which can easily withstand every modern weapon created in the Human World. Equal to his older brother when they are kids before he awakened his demonic powers), at least Building level+ via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Dante states that he awakens his demonic powers when he is in the brink of death, should be comparable to his brother Vergil when he awakens his demonic powers. Vastly superior than Blitz and Lady) | At least Building level+ (Comparable or stronger than his older brother when he awakened his demonic powers when he was a kid and his younger self when he transform in his Demon Form. Vastly superior to Black Knights which were created by Mundus to be one of his strongest servants among his fodder minions, made with data gathered after carefully studying how Dante, Vergil and Sparda fight, far higher after taking his original name back (Massively superior to his "Tony" persona. Is equal to Gilver when he is without his armor, and, eventually grew strong enough to match him with his armor and while he was being amped by Nexus) | At least Building level+, likely far higher in Base Form (Much stronger then before), at least City level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Massively more stronger than his base form, capable to easily survive from attacks from alice and one of the Sins) | At least City level in Base Form (Much stronger than before on his base form, should be able to endure his own attacks, since he was grow powerful enough to be comparable to his previous self that fought against one of the Sins one year previous to DMC3 events)

Nero​

Attack Potency: At least Wall level (Physically is far superior to most lesser demons, which can tear humans apart and easily wreck cars with a single strike and they can also easily withstand every modern weapon created in the Human World), likely Building level+ (Shoudn't be much weaker than his Before the Nightmare self, who could fight a Blitz even after losing his Devil Bringer), eventually at least City level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Was capable to easily surpass the level of power and skill that a normal human can have in his fist seconds of the battle when he fought against Dante and still keep growing more powerful throughout the fight and even stated later when he fought Berial that his attack is too slow and too weak for him, since he was grow more stronger, faster and skilled thanks to him fighting Dante for the first time in the church, otherwise, Nero thought that he would be a little helpless against him. Can fight against Echidna, who can easily change the weather of a wide forest full of large vegetation, mountains and cliffs and is the master of the Demon World's forest, and win without effort. Comparable to DMC3 Dante, who is capable to easily defeat demons that are comparable or stronger than the Sins, like the powerful sand-based demon Hell Vanguard, which is a demon feared in the Demon World, and guardians sealed in the Temen-ni-gru tower like Cerberus and Agni&Rudra, who should be comparable or stronger then demons like Nefasturris, who embodies a entire city of Dumary Island and casually covered the sky in a storm in his appearance)

Speed: At least Supersonic (Should be comparable to Lady in DMC3 events, who intercepted Dante's bullets with her own at close range and capable of reacting to firearms), likely Massively Hypersonic+ (Superior to demons like Puya, who can move at lightning speed, should be comparable to Blitz, Should be comparable to Lady in DMC4 events, who can react and shoot down Trish's lighting charged bullets out of air after they have already been shoot), eventually at least Massively Hypersonic+ via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Was capable to easily surpass the level of power and skill that a normal human can have in his fist seconds of the battle when he fought against Dante and still keep growing more powerful throughout the fight and even stated later when he fought Berial that his attack is too slow and too weak for him, since he was grow more stronger, faster and skilled thanks to him fighting Dante for the first time in the church, otherwise, Nero thought that he would be a little helpless against him)

Lifting Strength: Class K (Nero is capable to casually stop Berial's sword with Red Queen and even states that his attack is too weak and too slow for him. Can lift and swing around demons such as Berial and Bael with little difficulty, and is comparable to Volume 1 Dante, who on his earlier days as a mercenary (Tony), was capable of casually ripping out spines, which require at least this amount of force)

Durability At least Wall level, (Physically far superior to most lesser demons, which can easily withstand every modern weapon created in the Human World), likely Building level+ (Shoudn't be much weaker than his Before the Nightmare self, who could fight a Blitz even after losing his Devil Bringer), eventually at least City level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Was capable to easily surpass the level of power and skill that a normal human can have in his fist seconds of the battle when he fought against Dante and still keep growing more powerful throughout the fight and even stated later when he fought Berial that his attack is too slow and too weak for him, since he was grow more stronger, faster and skilled thanks to him fighting Dante for the first time in the church, otherwise, Nero thought that he would be a little helpless against him. Bhould be capable to withstand his own attacks)

Trish​

Attack Potency: At least Multi-City Block level+ (Should be stronger then demons like Bael, who can create a blizzard on this level, since she was sent by Mundus to kill Dante in the DMC1 events) | At least Multi-City Block level+ (Should be stronger then before)

Speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Can use her powers to become and move as natural lightning, vastly superior to demons like Puya, who can move at lightning speed) | (Should be faster then before)

Lifting Strength: Class K (Can fight against demons on the size of Bael, which is a common species in the Demon World)

Durability At least Multi-City Block level+ (Should be able to whistands her own attacks) | At least Multi-City Block level+ (Should be stronger then before)

Keys: DMC1 | Animated Series

Bianco Angelo​

Attack Potency: At least Wall level, (Physically is far superior to most lesser demons, which can tear humans apart and easily wreck cars with a single strike and they can also easily withstand every modern weapon created in the Human World. Created with pieces of Nelo Angelo's armor), likely Building level+ (Capable of fighting Assaults and even one shot then, in a single strike, turning them to blood mist, which is one of the elite demons sired by Mundus and is superior then others high ranking demons like Blade and Frost, but is inferior to Blitz in the Mundus's army)

Speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Can keep up with Lady, who can react and shoot down Trish's lighting charged bullets out of air after they have already been shoot)

Lifting Strength: Unknown

Durability At least Wall level, (Physically far superior to most lesser demons, which can easily withstand every modern weapon created in the Human World), likely Building level+ (They completely unfazed by multiple barrages of Kalina Ann rockets and can tank attacks from Assaults)

Lady​

All credits goes for Lighting and Sunlight Knight for Lady's scaling arguments.

During the Deadly Fortune novel, lady managed to slice a Proto Angelo in half with the Kallina Ann's Bayonet, this demon scales to Blitz who's 8-C, however, the feat was, as stated, by her Rocket Launcher + Bayonet, which means scalling her physically can happen or not, depends on how we take this type of feat, there are two options, one that scales to Lady and other that doesn't, and the discussion shall decide which version should go.

Version 1

• Lady scales

She cut the Angelo in half. Which implies she swung the bayonet with physical strength rather than relying on piercing.

Even if we use piercing rules, Weapons also usually scale in terms of "higher with" and are only given an outright higher tier when they are demonstrably higher than anything the person can do, usually via special means such as magic or empowerment. Since Kalina Ann is mundane, Lady would downscale to any feat performed with its Bayonet if via piercing

With that in mind, her profile should look like this:

Attack Potency: Wall level physically, with Firearms and with Grenades (Can kill regular demons with her arsenal, who can tear humans apart and easily wreck cars with a single strike and they can also easily withstand every modern weapon created in the Human World), Small Building level with Kalina Ann (Kalina Ann have this level of power with his most powerful missiles) | At least Wall level physically, with Firearms and with Grenades (Should be stronger than before and Kicked Trish through a wooden bench), Small Building level with Kalina Ann (Can harm Trish with the bayonet) | At least Wall level, likely Building level+ physically (Can easily cut Bianco Angelo's in half, who are completely unfazed by multiple barrages of Kalina Ann rockets and are capable to fight Assaults and even one shot then, in a single strike, turning them to blood mist, which is one of the elite demons sired by Mundus and is superior then others high ranking demons like Blade and Frost, but is inferior to Blitz in the Mundus's army), higher with Kallina Ann

Speed: Supersonic (Intercepted Dante's bullets with her own at close range, capable of reacting to firearms) | At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Intercepted Dante's bullets with her own at close range, superior then others demons like Puya, which attack their preys with lighting speed and is also capable of reacting to firearms) | Massively Hypersonic+ (React and shoot down Trish's lighting charged bullets out of air after they have already been shoot) | Massively Hypersonic+ (Can fight the Proto Angelos, who can keep up with Assaults)

Lifting Strength: Athletic Human (Can carry a considerable amount of ammunition alongside the rocket launcher) | Athletic Human (Should be stronger than before) | Athletic Human (Should be stronger than before) | Athletic Human (Should be stronger than before)

Striking Strength: Wall level (Should be able to harm himself) | Wall Class (Should be stronger then before and Kicked Trish through a wooden bench) | Building level+ (Can easily cut Bianco Angelo's in half, who are completely unfazed by multiple barrages of Kalina Ann rockets and are capable to fight Assaults)

Durability: Small Building level (Took an explosion from her own Kalina Ann with no injury) | Small Building level (Should be stronger then before and took attacks from Trish, including a lighting attack) | Small Building level (Lady should be able to withstand her own attacks. since she is physically strong enough to easily slice Proto Angelos in half, who are completely unfazed by multiple barrages of Kalina Ann rockets and can fight Assaults)

Keys: DMC3 | Animated Series | DMC4 and onwards

Version 2

• Lady doesn't scale

As the feat was done by outside weaponry, it doesn't scale to her physicals

With that in mind, her profile should look like this:

Attack Potency: Building level physically, with Firearms and with Grenades (Can kill regular demons, who are capable of easily tearing humans apart with her arsenal), Small Building level with Kalina Ann | At least Building level physically, with Firearms and with Grenades (Should be stronger than before, kicked Trish through a wooden bench), Small Building level with Kalina Ann | At least Building level physically, with Firearms and with Grenades (Should at least as strong as before), Small Building level with Kalina Ann, Building level+ with Kallina Ann's Bayonet (Sliced a Proto Angelo in half, who can fight Assaults)

Speed: Supersonic (Intercepted Dante's bullets with her own at close range, capable of reacting to firearms) | At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Intercepted Dante's bullets with her own at close range, superior than others demons like Puya, which attack their preys with lighting speed and is also capable of reacting to firearms) | Massively Hypersonic+ (Can dodge to Triss's lighting) | Massively Hypersonic+ (Can fight the Proto Angelos, who can keep up with Assaults)

Keys: DMC3 | Animated Series | DMC4 and onwards

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Agree for now.
May bring up some of my problems with Vergil scaling later.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

My main problem with this is the wording

AP sections only needs to quote feats from other characters when said people don't have a profile, and mostly, quote feats that justify the tier in question. Exceptions can exist, of course, but usually only when it's fast and simple to quote it, here, however, it makes their AP section way too complicated, so, I'll post my take on how they should be discribed. Take Echidna for example, she already has a profile, yet we are quoting here not only her, but her feat and her description, it's unnecessary.

First and for most, we need two profiles: one for Empusas, other for some Hells or any other 9-B demon, that 9-B section repeats itself too much between too many profiles, I'll create them and just link them instead of always describing the same for so many people.

Then, we shouldn't quote AD and RE on the AP section that much, they are specific abilities, on the AP section we should quote a more general term, so "After awakening his Devil Trigger" and "After awakening his inner Demonic Powers" is the best way to do it, we only keep that to feats that can't be described better

So, let's start

Vergil:

He and Dante are the most problematic among these

First, I don't get it why we are making one key that goes to 9-B to 8-C, then another key with 8-C ? What makes them 8-C while kids ? How we connected Blitz to them ?

I'll add to the wording my suggestions aswell

Attack Potency: At least Wall level (Comparable to most lesser demons. Equal to his younger brother when they are kids before awakening his demonic powers), at least Building level+ after awakening his Devil Trigger (Awakened his sleeping demonic powers to avoid dying, casually killed countless Sins that were sent to his house that day and continued to kill every demon sent by Mundus to kill him and defeated the Black Knights that were sent after him though the years)

Manga Vergil is really unnecessary, and we don't have many things for him aside from being vastly stronger than Dante, I think we should just discard this

Speed: At least Supersonic (Comparable to his younger brother when they are kids, can dodge the attacks of the Sins), at least Massively Hypersonic+ after awakening his Devil Trigger (Faster then Blitz and kept up with the Black Knights through the years)


Lifting Strength: At least Athletic Human (Can hold his father swords with no problems, should not be physically inferior to V, who can without problems push Elder Geryon Knight away and was also capable to hold the Devil Sword Sparda and carry away until where Dante is in coma), at least Class K after awakening his Devil Trigger (Comparable to Volume 1 Dante and Nero)

Durability: At least Wall level (Comparable to most lesser demons and equal to his younger brother when they are kids before awakening his demonic powers), at least Building level+ after awakening his Devil Trigger (Should be capable to withstand his own attacks)

Since Vergil had his powers awakened during his chiled era, he does scale to 8-C since post-awakening Vergil did kept up with the Black Knights

By putting him comparable to Dante (Who has the 8-C and Class K feats already described in his profile) we already justify enough, stuff like "masterfully wielding Yamato" is just skill, not AP, while breaking free from the Sins Illusions is Resistances, so we should avoid them in a AP section

Dante:

I'll add my suggestions for his page aswell

Attack Potency: At least Wall level (Physically is comparable to most lesser demons and equal to his older brother when they are kids before he awakened his demonic powers)

I didn't quite understood why we are putting a 8-C Dante here, he didn't awakened his powers during his child days, Vergil did, and since we have a specific key for his Tony days, we should just leave him here at 9-B

| At least Building level+ (Vastly superior to Black Knights), far higher after taking his original name back (Massively superior to his "Tony" persona. Is equal to Gilver when he is without his armor, and, eventually grew strong enough to match him with his armor and while he was being amped by Nexus)

Angelos are getting a profile, so no reason to quote every single thing for them here, leave that to their AP section

The next (Manga Dante) is the one I have more problems

I don't think we should just assume Dante isn't 7-B from start, not when we have feats saying otherwise. Before he used that Form, he already overpowered Alice, and exploded her head with a casual shot, and also was stronger than the White Rabbit who in turn is stronger than Alice herself (She is just a puppet to him), he used that form because he was getting overpowered by a hax, and needed to overcome said ability

Also, Alice, White Rabbit and those sins only are 7-B when we don't separate DMC3 Manga Dante to Pre DT DMC3 Dante, that happens because that Dante defeated Cerberus, who yes, is 7-B for being a direct temen-ni-gru guardian, with both Dantes separated, the scaling is also over and we can't connect those three to Echidna and Nefasturris. Alice and Rabbit have no Lore behind them, and the Sins aren't direct guardians of the tower, so saying they are comparable to Cerberus is a big stretch

In my view, we should separate Manga Dante from both Novel 1 and DMC3 Dante, and leave him just scaling highet than his Novel self

| At least Bulding level+ (Much stronger then before, stronger than both Alice and the White Rabbit), higher by releasing his demonic power (When Alice was sucking his life force, Dante was show to react by instinctively transforming to avoid dying, casually overpowering Alice during the process. Was unable to defend himself at first when he fought against a Sin and needed to instinctively semi-transform to avoid dying, defeating him in the process)

This is Manga Dante

| At least City level in Base Form (Even before unlocking his inner potential thanks to Rebellion, Dante grown strong enough to be able to easily defeat demons that are stronger than the Sins, like the powerful sand-based demon Hell Vanguard and the guardians of the Temen-ni-gru, like Cerberus and Agni&Rudra)

The description for Cerberus' tier should be on his profile, not on Dante's

Speed: At least Supersonic (Comparable to his older brother when they are kids, can dodge the attacks of the Sins) | Massively Hypersonic+ (Comparable or faster than his older brother when he awakened his demonic powers. Can perceive and counter a lot of Gilver's moves), higher after taking his original name back (Should be faster than before. Is equal to Gilver in first round, in second round eventually grew fast enough to match him while he was being amped by Nexus) | At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Faster then before), higher by releasing his demonic power (Can casually blitz a Sin when he is at least semi-transformed) | At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Much faster than before, superior to the Hell Vangiard and can keep up with Cerberus)

There isn't "Far Faster", it's "Far higher", and the far higher stuff isn't that right to be used here, as they are scaling to Blitz, they are related in AP, sure, but the scaling to speed, on the other hand, has to be more conservative, as we don't fully relate Speed and AP between them, the agreement is demons beig capable of being better than others in multiple areas, speed included. Trish's incoming Relativistic feat should also follow this and only scale to people that are directly above her, not just by AP

With that in mind we should keep it as At least MHS+

Lifting Strength: At least Athletic Human (Can hold his father swords with no problems, should not be physically inferior to V, who can without problems push Elder Geryon Knight away and was also capable to hold the Devil Sword Sparda and carry away until where Dante is in coma) | At least Class K (Was capable of casually ripping out spines, which require at least this amount of force. Comparable to Nero), higher after taking his original name back (Much Stronger then before) | At least Class K (Much stronger than before), higher by releasing his demonic power (Massively more stronger than his base form) | At least Class K (Much stronger than before on his base form, comparable to his previous self)

Durability: At least Wall level (Physically is comparable to most lesser demons) | At least Building level+ (Vastly superior to Black Knights), far higher after taking his original name back (Massively superior to his "Tony" persona. Is equal to Gilver when he is without his armor, and, eventually grew strong enough to match him with his armor and while he was being amped by Nexus) | At least Building level+ in Base Form (Much stronger then before), higher by releasing his demonic power (Massively more stronger than his base form, capable to easily survive from attacks from Alice and one of the Sins) | At least City level in Base Form (Much stronger than before on his base form, should be able to endure his own attacks, since he was grow powerful enough to be comparable to his previous self that fought against one of the Sins)

The last note is to avoid stuff like "likely far higher" for such small/mid jumps in power and when we have different keys with small gaps in time, since it kinda nukes the reason for a "likely far higher".

Nero:

Attack Potency: At least Wall level (Physically is far superior to most lesser demons), likely Building level+ (Shoudn't be much weaker than his Before the Nightmare self, who could fight a Blitz even after losing his Devil Bringer), eventually at least City level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Was capable to easily surpass the level of power and skill that a normal human can have in his fist seconds of the battle when he fought against Dante and still keep growing more powerful throughout the fight and even stated later when he fought Berial that his attack is too slow and too weak for him, since he was growing stronger, faster and skilled thanks to. Can fight against Echidna and win without effort. Comparable to DMC3 Dante

Nero's feat indeed is better described with AD and RE so we should keep it there, I only removed unnecessary details and scaling to people who already have their AP section with the details, just like with Dante and Vergil

Speed: At least Supersonic (Should be comparable to Lady in DMC3 events, who intercepted Dante's bullets with her own at close range and capable of reacting to firearms), likely Massively Hypersonic+ (Superior to demons like Puya, who can move at lightning speed, should be comparable to Blitz. Should be comparable to Lady in DMC4 events), eventually at least Massively Hypersonic+ via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Stated later when he fought Berial that his attack is too slow and too weak for him, since he was growing stronger, faster and skilled thanks to him fighting Dante for the first time in the church, otherwise, Nero thought that he would be a little helpless against him)

Lifting Strength: Class K (Nero is capable to casually stop Berial's sword with Red Queen and even states that his attack is too weak and too slow for him. Can lift and swing around demons such as Berial and Bael with little difficulty, and is comparable to Volume 1 Dante, who on his earlier days as a mercenary (Tony), was capable of casually ripping out spines, which require at least this amount of force)

Durability At least Wall level, (Physically far superior to most lesser demons), likely Building level+ (Shoudn't be much weaker than his Before the Nightmare self), eventually at least City level via Accelerated Development and Reactive Evolution (Endured attacks from Berial and Echidna)

Removed the repeated stuff for his AD and RE


Everything fine with Trish and Angelos


For Lady, it's actually the contrary, the first option is if she doesn't scale, the other is if she does scale

I keep my opinion that she shouldn't scale fully to her Kalina Ann, but rather hae both options on her description, so At least 9-B, likely 8-C+ is perfect, but in both options, the wording is, again, a bit too much

Attack Potency: Wall level physically, with Firearms and with Grenades (Can kill regular demons with her arsenal, who can tear humans apart and easily wreck cars with a single strike and they can also easily withstand every modern weapon created in the Human World), Small Building level with Kalina Ann (Kalina Ann have this level of power with his most powerful missiles) | At least Wall level physically, with Firearms and with Grenades (Should be stronger than before and kicked Trish through a wooden bench), Small Building level with Kalina Ann (Can harm Trish with the bayonet) | At least Wall level, likely Building level+ physically (Can easily cut Bianco Angelo's in half, who are completely unfazed by multiple barrages of Kalina Ann rockets and are capable to fight Assaults and even one shot then, in a single strike, turning them to blood mist, which is one of the elite demons sired by Mundus and is superior then others high ranking demons like Blade and Frost, but is inferior to Blitz in the Mundus's army), higher with Kallina Ann

Ok

Speed: Supersonic (Intercepted Dante's bullets with her own at close range, capable of reacting to firearms) | High Hypersonic+ (React and shoot down Trish's lighting charged bullets out of air after they have already been shoot) | Massively Hypersonic+ (Can fight the Proto Angelos, who can keep up with Assaults)

Her MHS+ is EXTREMELY pushed, also, 4 speed keys ? She has 3

First in no way possible she scales to Dante, and the same feat of intercepting his bullets is being used for both keys. Scaling to Puya alone isn't anough, like I said on discord, as "attacking with lightning speed" is a common flowery language for fast beings, and even then, the lightning on the quote can't be scaled to natural lightning, she should be High Hypersonic+ for dodging Trish's lightning

Keeping up with Assaults isn't enough for MHS+ as the feat comes from Blitz, who's faster than them, if they fought Blitz, we need a link for that, otherwise she should just be At least HH+

Lifting Strength: Athletic Human (Can carry a considerable amount of ammunition alongside the rocket launcher) | Athletic Human (Should be stronger than before) | Athletic Human (Should be stronger than before) | Athletic Human (Should be stronger than before)

Striking Strength: Wall level (Can harm demons with physical blows) | Wall Class (Should be stronger then before and Kicked Trish through a wooden bench) | At least Wall level, likely Building level+ (Can easily cut Bianco Angelo's in half, who are completely unfazed by multiple barrages of Kalina Ann rockets and are capable to fight Assaults)

Durability: Small Building level (Took an explosion from her own Kalina Ann with no injury) | Small Building level (Should be stronger then before and took attacks from Trish, including a lighting attack) | Small Building level, likely Building level+ (Strong enough to easily slice Proto Angelos in half, who are completely unfazed by multiple barrages of Kalina Ann rockets and can fight Assaults)

Keys: DMC3 | Animated Series | DMC4 and onwards

Aaaaand done

Oof

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I agree with Lightning on Manga Vergil being unnecessary key. I was going to bring that up exactly...but he did that job for me.
------------x-------------x-------------
I don't necessarily agree with 7B Manga Dante though...yes they were used to seal the tower, but I hate to say this....but.....its really hax in this case. The seal is special because their names were taken. And since no one can give them their names back willy nilly, Its very good seal for exactly that reason.
But we really don't know how much of their power was sealed. Remember unlike actual towers guards...who are actively supposed to defend the innards of tower. Sins are purposely made docile and weakened by Sparda. Since he can't have humans figure out Statues true purpose and keep humans safe, especially considering Sins are malignant.

So with this in mind, we cannot scale Sins to tower guardians. Both groups fulfil different functions in purposely distinct way.

Ultimately we have no feats for these weakened Sins, only one I can think of is eruption of Temen-Ni-Gru out of ground. But even then it will be divided among each of Seven Sins.
Best course of action you can take is mention them as higher 8C and be done with it. Or calc Eruption of Tower.
Either way, novel 1 should remain merged with manga.
-------------×---------------×-------


As for Lady. There's no reason to for physicals to be locked with Kalinaa. Its not supernatural at all. It doesn't amp her. Her feat is purely her own physical strength.
Its not like Kratos with " 7B in base and 2C with Gauntlet of Zeus"

Replace Kalinaa Ann with anyother bladed weapon, and Lady will pull off same feat.

Also lets note that Lady's feat is a shearing feat...not a piercing feat...shearing feats are lot more impressive and harder to pull off. So it further supports her physicals.

Keep it simple....8C physically and over.

 

[Mister6ame6]

My main problem with this is the wording

AP sections only needs to quote feats from other characters when said people don't have a profile, and mostly, quote feats that justify the tier in question. Exceptions can exist, of course, but usually only when it's fast and simple to quote it, here, however, it makes their AP section way too complicated, so, I'll post my take on how they should be discribed. Take Echidna for example, she already has a profile, yet we are quoting here not only her, but her feat and her description, it's unnecessary.

Fair, but the Echidna's statement should go on her profile to support her being a powerfull demon.

First and for most, we need two profiles: one for Empusas, other for some Hells or any other 9-B demon, that 9-B section repeats itself too much between too many profiles, I'll create them and just link them instead of always describing the same for so many people.

Nice.

Then, we shouldn't quote AD and RE on the AP section that much, they are specific abilities, on the AP section we should quote a more general term, so "After awakening his Devil Trigger" and "After awakening his inner Demonic Powers" is the best way to do it, we only keep that to feats that can't be described better

No problems for me

So, let's start

Vergil:

He and Dante are the most problematic among these

First, I don't get it why we are making one key that goes to 9-B to 8-C, then another key with 8-C ? What makes them 8-C while kids ? How we connected Blitz to them ?

Simple, BtN mentions that when Mundus was sending demons to kill then and failing every single time, he decide to create the Black Knights to be his strongest minion, which happens immediately after the narrator talk about Mundus failing to kill the twins, that's is the connection that we want for scaling then.

I'll add to the wording my suggestions aswell

Manga Vergil is really unnecessary, and we don't have many things for him aside from being vastly stronger than Dante, I think we should just discard this

If the Sins don't get at least a possibly 7B rating, then yeah, it's is reasonable to discard Manga Vergil

Dante:

I'll add my suggestions for his page aswell

I didn't quite understood why we are putting a 8-C Dante here, he didn't awakened his powers during his child days, Vergil did, and since we have a specific key for his Tony days, we should just leave him here at 9-B

He can awaken his demonic powers when he is in the brink of death as stated in BtN when he was figthing Urizen and considering that Mundus was sending assassin's left and right to kill him and his brother, is easy to imagine how Dante learned that he can transform without having completely control his demonic powers, to avoid being murdered, which we know who was the one that was the cause of that events in the story.

Angelos are getting a profile, so no reason to quote every single thing for them here, leave that to their AP section

The next (Manga Dante) is the one I have more problems

I don't think we should just assume Dante isn't 7-B from start, not when we have feats saying otherwise. Before he used that Form, he already overpowered Alice, and exploded her head with a casual shot, and also was stronger than the White Rabbit who in turn is stronger than Alice herself (She is just a puppet to him), he used that form because he was getting overpowered by a hax, and needed to overcome said ability

Fair for me.

Also, Alice, White Rabbit and those sins only are 7-B when we don't separate DMC3 Manga Dante to Pre DT DMC3 Dante, that happens because that Dante defeated Cerberus, who yes, is 7-B for being a direct temen-ni-gru guardian, with both Dantes separated, the scaling is also over and we can't connect those three to Echidna and Nefasturris. Alice and Rabbit have no Lore behind them, and the Sins aren't direct guardians of the tower, so saying they are comparable to Cerberus is a big stretch

I would say the Sins deserve a possibly 7-B at least if they are worth to be used as seal for the tower, but i'm fine with being regected tho.

The rest is ok. Although V bring some good points here, i will a bit more my judgment about the points he brought here.

 

[Shmooply]

I am 100% certain that if (IF, mind you) Ame was unable to make anymore DMC CRTs, he would do a livestream where he records his lifeforce leaving his body because of it being unable to cope with not being able to create any more DMC stuff, and we all watch in horror as he withers into a lifeless husk in mere moments.
.
.
.
Following this thread, am neutral at the moment.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I am 100% certain that if (IF, mind you) Ame was unable to make anymore DMC CRTs, he would do a livestream where he records his lifeforce leaving his body because of it being unable to cope with not being able to create any more DMC stuff, and we all watch in horror as he withers into a lifeless husk in mere moments.
.
.
.
Following this thread, am neutral at the moment.

That's kinda true

 

[Thehunter077]

I thought attacking with lightning speed wasn't flowery because is not "Like Lightning speed" statement which can be flowery?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I thought attacking with lightning speed wasn't flowery because is not "Like Lightning speed" statement which can be flowery?

You have a very good point.
It doesn't feel like a metaphorical comparison, more like direct statement of speed comparison.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I thought attacking with lightning speed wasn't flowery because is not "Like Lightning speed" statement which can be flowery?

I don't quite see the difference between the two ? Both are using "Lightning speed" which is usually flowery unless we have more evidence, and there is the problem that it's only MHS+ when scaled to Natural Lightning, which the statement and the Puyas absolutely lack proof about

There is also a problem with consistency, as Blitz is way stronger, with more lore, and is directly connected to Natural Lightning speed, while Puya is one of the biggest fodders in the verse

 

[KLOL506]

I agree with Lightning Haha geddit lightning?

Bad puns aside, you'd have a more solid case if it were stated like "with the speed of lightning" or "with the speed of a lightning bolt" but unfortunately that isn't the case here.

Not like it matters, don't most good low-tiers scale above Blitz?

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Yeah, this only affects Anime Lady actually, instead of MHS+ she would be High Hypersonic+ thanks to that feat calced by Bambu

It can be used now as we are re-scaling Trish's lightning to MHS+

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So after discussing a small bit with Lightning and KLoL about Lady we came to a small truce.
The topic being this feat.



As you can see Lady in this instance is able to percieve Trish's actions and movements, Trish flips in air and shoots lightning charged shots at Lady. She perceived all of this and made the decision shoot down bullets. She aims her gun and pulls the trigger. The results being accurate strike down of the charged bullets by her own bullets. (Which is also a good marksmanship/skill feat)

This entire sequence tells us that Lady's reaction and combat speed directly scale to natural speed of Trish, thus forgoing any need for calc. Which will scale Lady in Reflex Speed department as MHS+.

But her movement was minimal, and thus lacking movement speed feat...it will remain HH+ as per an old calc made by Mr Bambu.

 

[Mister6ame6]

Well, guess you guys reached a conclusion then, good.

Also @Lighting did you agree now with kid Dante scaling to the Black Knights and post DT kid Vergil?

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Well, guess you guys reached a conclusion then, good.

Also @Lighting did you agree now with kid Dante scaling to the Black Knights and post DT kid Vergil?

No, honestly

Kid Dante has literally nothing on him besides hiding from demons that night and being equal to Kid Vergil who's 9-B, his feats against the Black Knights are already addressed on his Novel 1 Key, so we should just let him at that level

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Yes, both vergil and dante don't need a kids key there is not even something useful in having it

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Vergil should still get a Kid Tier, he actually fought and has both lore and feats for him, and it helps Nero's new additions for more context

However yeah Dante on the other hand may not need that, his feats start with Novel 1 anyway

 

[Mister6ame6]

No, honestly

Kid Dante has literally nothing on him besides hiding from demons that night and being equal to Kid Vergil who's 9-B, his feats against the Black Knights are already addressed on his Novel 1 Key, so we should just let him at that level

He was tho, he was just like Vergil being hunted by the demons thought the years since his mother's death, Mundus created the Black Knights because of all demons he sended failed to kill the twins, they mention that he taked some time to find Dante compared to Vergil, but he still found him regardless. Dante even support that when he mention that his demonic powers temporaraly awakened when he was dying in his childhood, unless you gonna say that normal humans are the ones that pushed him to that level, he should also get a key too with his demonic powers temporaraly awakened.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I didn't denied that, my point is: Wouldn't Novel 1 key already cover his growth ?

Also only the Black Knights scale to 8-C thanks to the Blitz thing, regular minions don't

 

[Mister6ame6]

Well, yeah, but novel 1 shows that he was growth to comparable or stronger then his kid self, which is good for the scaling and to show the progression of power thought the years in his life.

Yeap, but they found Blitz in their lives, which is the reason we scale then to 8-C, instead of only 9-B.

 

[Thehunter077]

I don't quite see the difference between the two ? Both are using "Lightning speed" which is usually flowery unless we have more evidence, and there is the problem that it's only MHS+ when scaled to Natural Lightning, which the statement and the Puyas absolutely lack proof about

There is also a problem with consistency, as Blitz is way stronger, with more lore, and is directly connected to Natural Lightning speed, while Puya is one of the biggest fodders in the verse

I mean even though Puya is a fodder and not strong as Blitz in entire category, it still has speed.

Also does Blitz even considered fast in his own kind? like demonic lizard looking until Fury that ****** annoying demon in DMD shows up.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Well, yeah, but novel 1 shows that he was growth to comparable or stronger then his kid self, which is good for the scaling and to show the progression of power thought the years in his life.

Yeap, but they found Blitz in their lives, which is the reason we scale then to 8-C, instead of only 9-B.

9-B, later 8-C | At least 8-C then

I still think Kid Dante is pointless, but I'm not going to keep pushing back

I mean even though Puya is a fodder and not strong as Blitz in entire category, it still has speed.

Also does Blitz even considered fast in his own kind? like demonic lizard looking until Fury that ****** annoying demon in DMD shows up.

We took a look at Puya's quote in Jap and it doesn't mention Lightning or anything, it was indeed flowery language

 

[Thehunter077]

What does japanese version say?

 

[Lightning_XXI]

What does japanese version say?

Instead of "Lightning" it's like "really fast" or something

 

[Random-Helper323]

Is the section on Trish suggesting she get divided into keys or just downgraded? I should point out that in the anime she seemed to think she could kill Baul who in turn should scale to Belphegor who was going to devour a city. That might mean something.

Also, if calculated the car slicing feat could possibly yield more than wall level for the weaker characters. Even wall level+ would be an upgrade for the weaker characters.

This feat, I mean.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Is the section on Trish suggesting she get divided into keys or just downgraded? I should point out that in the anime she seemed to think she could kill Baul who in turn should scale to Belphegor who was going to devour a city. That might mean something.

Also, if calculated the car slicing feat could possibly yield more than wall level for the weaker characters. Even wall level+ would be an upgrade for the weaker characters.

This feat, I mean.

Divided

Her 6-C/High 4-C key still is there, just for her DMC4 self

Belphagor's statements lack timeframe so I don't see that really working, about Baul, I remember the scene but there is a difference between that and Trish's feat in 4 against Savior, this last one has narration also stating that it would be a good battle, while in the anime she just mocks Dante about killing Baul first, which Dante quickly refuses and takes the job for himself, that's not something we can scale

 

[Random-Helper323]

Understood. What about the part about the car slicing? Considering Jason Voorhees is listed as wall level + for smashing a steel door, that might be a small upgrade for Lady and the like. There's slashing through the car and there's also sending the halves of the car flying which is a kinetic energy feat as well.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Which keys do these apply to exactly? In Vergil and Dante's case.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Which keys do these apply to exactly? In Vergil and Dante's case.

Dante: Kid/Visions of V | Novel 1 | DMC3 Manga | DMC3 Pre DT

Vergil: Kid/Visions of V

Manga Vergil was already discarded

Understood. What about the part about the car slicing? Considering Jason Voorhees is listed as wall level + for smashing a steel door, that might be a small upgrade for Lady and the like. There's slashing through the car and there's also sending the halves of the car flying which is a kinetic energy feat as well.

I do agree that it deserves a calc, but I wouldn't raise my expectations of being higher than 9-B, slicing feats are rather hard to calc as far as I know

 

[Random-Helper323]

I suspect it might be high enough in 9-B to warrant being wall level +, which would be a small upgrade for Lady and the like. Plus the demon is weaker than other demons and Lady takes down those other demons easily, so if it gets close to the wall level + point it might warrant putting her there at least. There's also the Cutlass cutting clean through a door that's about a foot thick in DMC4. The Cutlass is at very least weaker than Blitz and the like. There's also the fact that the car being cut through is technically two feats, the slicing feat and the kinetic energy feat.

Also, if these changes get accepted I think I should do some grammar fixes for them before they get added. I'd like to fix the grammar for DMC's pages in general but I don't know if I can.

 

[Mister6ame6]

I suspect it might be high enough in 9-B to warrant being wall level +, which would be a small upgrade for Lady and the like. Plus the demon is weaker than other demons and Lady takes down those other demons easily, so if it gets close to the wall level + point it might warrant putting her there at least. There's also the Cutlass cutting clean through a door that's about a foot thick in DMC4. The Cutlass is at very least weaker than Blitz and the like. There's also the fact that the car being cut through is technically two feats, the slicing feat and the kinetic energy feat.

Also, if these changes get accepted I think I should do some grammar fixes for them before they get added. I'd like to fix the grammar for DMC's pages in general but I don't know if I can.

Well, not problem for me if you want to help fix grammar mistakes in DMC's pages.

We should try to make some calcs then, if can wield 9B+ that's would be good for the low tiers.

Th Cutlass feat is 9B, so that's not really useful compared to the Sins feat, but maybe i'm could be wrong here, a calc could be good to help know how much it's would wield in the end.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I don't know about the shearing feat of slicing through the car, although as I said Jason Voorhees is wall level + for smashing a steel door which was far thinner, but sending the car flying at Nero is also a factor, especially since it was performed at the same time as slicing through the car which if anything means the Hell Caina can deliver harder blows than that. For sending it flying, that should be a simple kinetic energy calculation based on the lower end weight for a medium sized sedan, which is probably about 0.8 to 1.1 metric tons or something like that, and looking at how fast the car moves when it gets launched. When Nero dodges it it's in slow motion, but when it first gets sent flying it wasn't slow motion yet, so we can probably measure how fast it was moving by watching that part of the scene frame by frame. I'm obviously not expecting anything in tier 8 or anything like that, but it might go higher in 9-B. I've actually been thinking of making some tier 9 versus threads, but with Lady being one of the characters I intend to use it's best to sort out the details first.

Regarding grammar, I already went over the demon physiology page somewhat. I need to do more. Several pages on the Wiki have good info but have some grammar and spelling issues to fix for presentation purposes. The problem is that I'm not sure I can edit the locked pages. I also don't want to disturb Ant and the other staff by editing controversial pages when Ant pretty much serves as a force of one patrolling those edits.