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Miscellaneous LOTR revisions

1,322
94
Powers

  • Smoke manipulation (Gandalf): In the Hobbit, Gandalf creates a pillar of smoke and sparks to distract the goblins.
  • Heat manipulation (Gandalf, the Balrogs, and Morgoth): Gandalf manipulates heat to create sparks and fire several times; the Balrogs can match his magic, and Morgoth has the powers of all other Ainur. Additionally, Morgoth was stated to be the one who created extreme heat and cold, so he should naturally be able to manipulate them.
  • Earth manipulation (Morgoth): Given that Aule is the Ainu most like Morgoth in powers, we can assume the reverse is true. Also, Morgoth has the powers of all Ainur, and could keep the Earth unformed.
  • Time manipulation (Morgoth): Morgoth boasts of being the master of the fates of Arda, using his power to curse Hurin, as well as presumably having the powers of Vaire.
  • Time stop (Morgoth and Vaire): Same as above, the only difference being that Morgoth doesn't currently posses this power. Since the universe (Might) only move because of her, she can naturally stop moving it, as she would do in combat.
  • Ice manipulation (Morgoth): Morgoth was stated to be the one who created extreme heat and cold, so he should naturally be able to manipulate them.
  • Poison manipulation (Sauron): Sauron taught the Nazgul everything they know, and all their power has its source in him.
  • Weather manipulation (Gandalf and the Balrogs): Gandalf was able to create thunderstorms atop Khazad-Dum during his fight with the Balrog.
  • Invulnerability (All Ainur): Gandalf gained his invulnerability from unlocking more of his divine Maiar power, so it stands to reason that most Maiar should also have this ability. This is made even more likely given that non-Maiar can use such abilities with magic (Magic being an art the Maiar are usally very proficient in). Examples include the Witch-King.
  • Empathic manipulation (All Ainur): "In Beleriand King Thingol upon his throne was as the lords of the Maiar, whose power is at rest, whose joy is as an air that they breathe in all their days, whose thought flows in a tide untroubled from the heights to the deeps." This implies that the Ainur have some kind of empathic powers, capable of bringing joy and happiness.
  • Energy manipulation and projection (Gandalf, Sauron, the Balrogs and Morgoth): Gandalf was capable of creating powerful blasts of energy, such as when he destroyed a door in Moria, or the bridge of Khazad-Dum. The Balrog also used similar magic, helping to destroy the door. Sauron and Morgoth were both powerful sorcerers and should have comparable spells. Energy projection is a subset of energy manipulation, and thus having energy projection implies manipulation, at the very least in the form of projection (Though not the other way around).
  • Air manipulation (Manwe and Morgoth): Manwe is the god of the skies and, as such, should have great power over the heavens, manifested in weather and air manipulation. Morgoth is his brother and has all the powers of the other Ainur.
  • Invisibility (Morgoth): Morgoth is the source of all dark things, and thus should have command over all of them, including the Unseen World. Given his control over it, he should also be able to become invisible.
  • Resistance to death manipulation (All Ainur): In LOTR the land of the dead is a real tangible place, Mandos, and can be affected and exited. Normal Ainur don't go there upon death, rather becoming spirits until the regenerate. The only way to keep them there is if they are physically brought there and held by physical might. Thus, death manipulation should have little to no effect on them.
  • Resistance to fire manipulation (Arien, Gothmog, Sauron, and Morgoth): All the Balrogs are perpetually burning and are unharmed by it; "Arien the maiden was mightier than he, and she was chosen because she had not feared the heats of Laurelin, and was unhurt by them, being from the beginning a spirit of fire"; Sauron also has many pyrokinetic powers and should definitely possess these; see above for Morgoth.
Note:

To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethre
~ The source for Melkor having the powers of all other Ainur​


Stats

  • Massively FTL+ combat speed and reactions (Ancalagon the Black, the Valar, Sauron, and Carcharoth): Ancalagon the Black kept pace with Earendil in Vingilot, a ship that travels through space with a star upon it. Sauron is the greatest of Morgoth's servants, putting him above Ancalagon, and Carcharoth fought him. Lastly, all the Valar are stronger than Morgoth at his weakest, and Morgoth at his weakest was still stronger than Ancalagon.
  • Unknown (Morgoth at his weakest): This is simply because we have no real measure of his power at this point.
  • Universe level (Melkor at his strongest): It was stated that "The Valar had a command, great individually, almost complete as a united council, over the physical matter of Eä." This means that the combined power of the Valar is almost Universe level (Perhaps Multi-Galaxy level+ when combined, albeit not individually), and Morgoth is even stronger than that. And what is stronger than almost something? Something. Say the combined power of the Valar controls 90% of the universe, Morgoth should therefore control 100% of it, or at least close enough that he is, for intents and proposes, 3-A.
 
Invulnerability is a no limits fallacy, and we cannot list powers that have not been stated or shown, and are strictly based on speculation.
 
Never mind. I read your quote. I suppose that Morgoth should have more powers then.
 
It is best if you ask Azathoth to comment here in any case.
 
While we're here i would like to mention Sauron should have fear manip and power granting (the first because he subjugated a city with his mere prescence and the second because he granted the Mouth of Sauron immortality allegedly and gave the Nazgul all their powers)
 
Antvasima said:
Invulnerability is a no limits fallacy
If invulnerability is a no-limits fallacy, then why is it listed as a legitimate power?

When I say invulnerability, I don't mean complete resistance to every form of damage ever, High 1-A sucks to be you, because that would be nonesense. I mean conventional damage does not hurt them. Keep in mind that this is listed on the Witch-King's page.

As I understood it, invulnerability simply means conventional weaponry does not hurt one; enchantments, spells, soul manipulation, etc. can still injure them. Otherwise, it would make no sense to have a page for that, because of the oforementioned NLF problem.
 
Hellbeast1 said:
While we're here i would like to mention Sauron should have fear manip and power granting (the first because he subjugated a city with his mere prescence and the second because he granted the Mouth of Sauron immortality allegedly and gave the Nazgul all their powers)
I already mentioned that.
 
I have no idea why we have still have an invulnerability page, but the durability rating generally defines how resistant characters are to damage.
 
Well, he is likely best suited among the staff for evaluating this subject.
 
Yes.

That makes it easier to perform a revision (Because only one person has to agree or disagree) and at the same time harder (Because there is only one person who can evaluate it).
 
The thing about MFTL+ is because of this:

Now fair and marvellous was that vessel made, and it was filled with a wavering flame, pure and bright; and Eärendil the Mariner sat at the helm, glistening with dust of elven-gems, and the Silmaril was bound upon his brow. Far he journeyed in that ship, even into the starless voids; but most often was he seen at morning or at evening, glimmering in sunrise or sunset, as he came back to Valinor from voyages beyond the confines of the world.

On those journeys Elwing did not go, for she might not endure the cold and the pathless voids, and she loved rather the earth and the sweet winds that blow on sea and hill. Therefore there was built for her a white tower northward upon the borders of the Sundering Seas; and thither at times all the sea-birds of the earth repaired. And it is said that Elwing learned the tongues of birds, who herself had once worn their shape; and they taught her the craft of flight, and her wings were of white and silver-grey. And at times, when Eärendil returning drew near again to Arda, she would fly to meet him, even as she had flown long ago, when she was rescued from the sea. Then the far-sighted among the Elves that dwelt in the Lonely Isle would see her like a white bird, shining, rose-stained in the sunset, as she soared in joy to greet the coming of Vingilot to haven.

Now when first Vingilot was set to sail in the seas of heaven, it rose unlocked for, glittering and bright; and the people of Middle-earth beheld it from afar and wondered, and they took it for a sign, and called it Gil-Estel, the Star of High Hope.'
And when this new star was seen at evening, Maedhros spoke to Maglor his brother, and he said: 'Surely that is a Silmaril that shines now in the West?

Most importantly, Vingilot managed by Eärendil was able to travel through space in less than a day. The voids without stars is evident, and when he mentions the confines of the world he refers to the confines of Eä which is the universe. And so that someone doesn't believe that when it talks about confines of the world it refers to the confines of a planet, it is clarified in the following paragraph that Eärendil approached Arda, which is the planet where Middle Earth resides, that is forceful Earendil came out of said planet and traveled to the ends of the universe returning in just one day.

Another important thing unlike Elwing, Eärendil was able to withstand the cold of the outer space that is about -270.43┬║C, almost the Absolute Zero without any problem. A lot of important information in just a couple of paragraphs
 
  • Most powers seem fine, though type of Invunerability should obviously be expanded upon and clarified.
  • I guess 3-A (or 3-B) Melkor at his strongest within Eä seems fine.
  • MFTL+ might actually be solid, but the reasoning really needs to be properly expanded upon.
 
Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

Which pages do I need to temporarily unlock?
 
Yes. He needs to write a list of the exact titles of all the pages that need to be unlocked. Othervise the script that I use will not be able to handle it.
 
Azathoth is pretty mcuh correct. All of these need to be unlocked

  • Est├½
  • Orom├½
  • Arien
  • Morgoth
  • Mandos
  • V├ína
  • Nienna
  • Vair├½
  • Irmo
  • Gandalf
  • Sauron
  • Manw├½
  • The Ainur
  • Varda
  • Eonwe
  • Ulmo
  • Aul├½
  • Oss├½
  • Tulkas
  • Yavanna
Nessa seems to be glitched, so you'll have to unlock and lock it manually.
 
Okay. I will unlock them then. Tell me here when you are done.
 
Because the character was on the list of characters that you just wrote, that you said needed to be unlocked and then locked again.
 
That was an accident.

I tried to list all the Ainur except for the ones which were still unlocked, but a few most have slipped through the cracks.
 
Okay. If you tell me which ones that were unlocked before, I can see to it that they are unlocked again.
 
Okay. I will lock the profile afain.

You should talk with Reppuzan about any new powers & abilities pages.
 
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